55528 réponses à ce sujet

[TSA_383]

Parabolee77 wrote...

 I know I don't post often enough in this thread. But just so you all know, I lurk the crap out of it.

Anyway just wanted to let you all know that I have started updating the Mass Effect Indoctrination Blog with content related to the Extended Cut.

Expect to see a LOT of new content over the coming weeks. Once I start getting all the evidence up please feel free to PM me if you think I have missed any important points.

MassEffectIndoctrination.blogspot.com

What maketh ye of this?

The irish phrase Garrus uses - "May you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead"

Now,
this is a bit of a stretch perhaps, but the origins of this phrase are
quite interesting and possibly foreshadow the ending:

http://answers.yahoo...22072508AAqUxgb
"its
rooted in christian lore. For the devil to take your soul whilst you
are living, you have to give it to him willingly. From the time you die
till ye are in sacred ground interred, your unprotected soul is fair
game."

It's a very odd phrase to use, I have a hard time
imagining that the Canadian writers at Bioware would come across it and
then put it in the script without also catching the meaning/origin of
it...

[legaldinho]

clennon8 wrote...

SERVE US has been debunked, as far as I'm concerned. Not sure whether to be sad or glad. That was about the last bit of IT evidence I was clinging to.

I dunno. Even if it's used elsewhere, well they didn't have a lot of time. It's an addition to the ECDLC at a crucial moment, before the beam, which is quite deliberate. Why add anything? It's another clue.

So in the rush to finish the extended cut, they used an existing riff and changed the pitch... so what?

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. THIS IS ASSET RE-USE, WORKING IN FAVOUR OF IT!

[paxxton]

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

This is a distinct sound from Harby's as you can hear in the video posted by EpyonX3. Listen for 6-7 seconds to hear both.
http://www.youtube.c...sD17Ovyk#t=290s

It's the same sound. Just has different speeds with the same pitch.

Harbinger? So we're now to believe that Harbinger got owned by the Maw on Tuchanka? 

No. The point is that the sound from harbinger is not a unique one. It's a standard reaper sound that we've all heard before but never paid any attention to it.

But in that sound file there are 2 sounds (at 4:50 and 4:55).

Oh Sry paxxton I thought you were comparing the sound at 4:50 to the link above not the two sounds in the one clip.

They are different sounds but seem similar to an extent.

Yeah, they share some similarities.

The first is used by Harbinger, the second by the Tuchanka Destroyer.

Modifié par paxxton, 02 juillet 2012 - 08:48 .

[EpyonX3]

Eryri wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

[*]snip

1) The trees on the field are not the same in appearance or size to the ones in your dreams. The shrubs are not in your dreams either.

[*]
[*]I was watching footage of it the other night, and although the shrubs in the dreams tend to be larger, they do wave in the breeze in the same peculiarly unnatural way that the ones around the beam do.

Not impossible that bioware reused the same animation procedures for shrubs caught in wind.

[*]Again that's very true. But it is a very odd animation. Bioware are capable of much more naturalistic animation, but the way the shrubs move is more like a shadow of a shrub with a moving light source. They seem to change in size slightly as they move and seem oddly flat and two dimensional.

Whether they're capable or not doesn't mean much when you have deadlines from a publisher. A developer can get lost in its own project if it starts to pay too much attention to a lot of small details.

[TSA_383]

legaldinho wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

SERVE US has been debunked, as far as I'm concerned. Not sure whether to be sad or glad. That was about the last bit of IT evidence I was clinging to.

I dunno. Even if it's used elsewhere, well they didn't have a lot of time. It's an addition to the ECDLC at a crucial moment, before the beam, which is quite deliberate. Why add anything? It's another clue.

So in the rush to finish the extended cut, they used an existing riff and changed the pitch... so what?

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. THIS IS ASSET RE-USE, WORKING IN FAVOUR OF IT!

Lrn2Logic 

I'm beginning to think we need a "clutching at straws" smilie

Not to say that harbinger isn't supposed to be saying something - do we have confirmation that it was a pre-existing reaper sound?

[TSA_383]

LaughingDragon wrote...

This thread is so silly.

There is no indoctrination theory - You want to sum up everything about ME3 in two words? Mac Walters. The dude ran the franchise into the ground face first. The catalyst is real, what happens in the game really happens, I'm sorry it's that bad but it is.

What a well-rounded rebuttal.

I disagree. What's in the game is there, where it goes from here is open to speculation

[insomniak9]

Other than the Maw video?

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

Consider two important factors, though. 

What we know about indoctrination.
&
Bioware stating that they want us to feel what Shepard feels from a first person perspective.

When you put those two things together, anything is fair game, including the idea that everything we're seeing at any given point is just a lie. 

I like the notion behind it.  I really do, and it's why I've defended the idea for a while under the heat of the rest of the forum, since it's within BioWare's creative DNA.  But if there was an opportunity to telegraph a resolution to the broad kind of indoctrination you're suggesting, the EC was it. All eyes were on it, anticipation was high, and BioWare knew this.

They added elements that strengthen versions of that interpretation.  That's a good thing.  But they missed THE opportunity to deliver on the theory.  You have to think about the fact that delivering on the theory will completely negate all of the people's opinions out there (and on the board) about their choices, which vary.  And some people's renegade Shepard might WANT to exact control, or realign everyone's DNA.  If they do anything to strengthen belief in the IT camp, I think it's going to run parallel with the story as an interpretation.  And it's a fine interpretation, folks.

[EpyonX3]

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

This is a distinct sound from Harby's as you can hear in the video posted by EpyonX3. Listen for 6-7 seconds to hear both.
http://www.youtube.c...sD17Ovyk#t=290s

It's the same sound. Just has different speeds with the same pitch.

Harbinger? So we're now to believe that Harbinger got owned by the Maw on Tuchanka? 

No. The point is that the sound from harbinger is not a unique one. It's a standard reaper sound that we've all heard before but never paid any attention to it.

But in that sound file there are 2 sounds (at 4:50 and 4:55).

Oh Sry paxxton I thought you were comparing the sound at 4:50 to the link above not the two sounds in the one clip.

They are different sounds but seem similar to an extent.

Yeah, they share some similarities.

The first is used by Harbinger, the second by the Tuchanka Destroyer.

5:03

[zigamortis]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I apologize if my tone comes off as hostile, because that is never my intention with any of my posts. But how else would I make that point? If you could hear my vocal inflection you'd know I wasnt being rude, but the fact of the matter is that I feel you are not considering all of the information we have on indoctrination when coming up with what you feel is the best explanation for the events that take place during the charge. We are. 

• dream trees and shrubs
• ashley/kaidan corpse piles
• infinite supply of generic alliance troops charging at the beam
• Normandy comes out of nowhere when we already know it had rejoined the sword fleet
• harby doesnt fire at anything while you chat with your teammates
• 3 of the last 4 beams that Harby fires are sound only, and cant be seen
• the last beam harby fires at shep is out of sync with it's beam sound, and you hear a strange tone at first instead

That's not even a complete list, either. 

Ok I have some answers to some of those.

1) The trees on the field are not the same in appearance or size to the ones in your dreams. The shrubs are not in your dreams either.
2) Could be standard armor for alliance soldiers. Is Ashely and Kaiden's armor said to be unique to them?
3) We don't know how large Harmer really is. We just know what percentage of them actually land in London. With Low EMS, that number seems to be a lot smaller since the scene ends much faster.
4) Normandy is most likely one of the ships ordered by Hackett to delay the reapers leaving the battle with Sword. If they landed near Harbinger, the Normandy wouldn't be too far.
5) Can't really explain that one other than Bioware left it out while rushing EC out the door.
6) Like I said before, there are still explosions heard in the background when the focus is on Shepard and his crew.
7) I think the sound is for dramatic effect, much like it was pre-EC.

[*]Standard alliance armor is blue just like it has been for the entirity of the game. and the shrubs and trees are similar though not the same.

[GethPrimeMKII]

LaughingDragon wrote...

This thread is so silly.

There is no indoctrination theory - You want to sum up everything about ME3 in two words? Mac Walters. The dude ran the franchise into the ground face first. The catalyst is real, what happens in the game really happens, I'm sorry it's that bad but it is.



We're trying to make sense out of writing that came from a guy who is quoted as saying the above?? Cmon guys get with the program!

Trolling presence detected. 

[paxxton]

insomniak9 wrote...

Other than the Maw video?

The Tuchanka Destroyer uses a distinctive sound than Harbinger.

[EpyonX3]

insomniak9 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

This is during the EC-added evac scene. Those same dreamy trees, swaying in the same dreamy way.

Wow. We should convert to Literalists now.

Those trees were always there though. Even before EC.

You mean, they were there in that scene which wasn't there when you didn't evac squadmates pre-EC? 

Lol. I mean the trees were in the beam run level before getting hit by Harby before EC. The trees in the EC shot are not new or added.

[Eryri]

Apologies if you've already discussed this to death, but this thread is way too big to keep track of.

The EC gave us the ability to interrogate the catalyst about the choices, which the fans requested and was very welcome. However we still can't question why the Catalyst looks like the kid from Earth and Shepard's dreams. Shep doesn't bat an eyelid or make the slightest comment. 

We've watched enough sci-fi shows to know that weird incorporeal aliens are supposed to take on familiar forms to interact with lesser mortals, but I doubt Shepard has watched many of the Q episodes from Star Trek TNQ. It's not the sort of thing that happens every day in the Mass Effect universe. He's not even angry that it's assumed the shape of a kid that it vicariously murdered through one of its own creations.

This still seems one of the more dreamlike aspects of the decision chamber - Shepard isn't the least phased by talking to a dead person, just as we sometimes are in dreams.

The fact that they gave us other options to ask questions, but not on this point... ahh I don't know. I just hope they give us some resolution one way or the other at Comic Con. All this speculation is giving me a headache.

Modifié par Eryri, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:02 .

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Reapers build the Citadel and the Mass Rely since Sovereign sated that it's self. So when the Catalyst says "the Citadel is my home" does that mean...OH my GOD... The Reapers could have created the Catalyst in an effort to get Shepard on their side and they used the Boy on Earth to mess with Shepard and at the end when the time was right they would use the Boy to make Shepard except the Reapers ways and let Shepard do anything Shepard wants so that the Reapers have more time to Modify Shepard after Shepard picked a choice, but what the Reapers did not expect was the War assets that Shepard brought to Earth, and my theory for Destroy/breath scene was that with LOW EMS the Reapers kill Shepard before Shepard wakes up but with HIGH EMS Shepard has time to wake up because Shepard's Assets are bying time to let Shepard wake up hence explains why Shepard does not wake up in Destroy because of the WAR ASSETS/EMS.

Please reply nobody real replys to what i say unless there is nothing good or it's stupied.

[paxxton]

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

This is a distinct sound from Harby's as you can hear in the video posted by EpyonX3. Listen for 6-7 seconds to hear both.
http://www.youtube.c...sD17Ovyk#t=290s

It's the same sound. Just has different speeds with the same pitch.

Harbinger? So we're now to believe that Harbinger got owned by the Maw on Tuchanka? 

No. The point is that the sound from harbinger is not a unique one. It's a standard reaper sound that we've all heard before but never paid any attention to it.

But in that sound file there are 2 sounds (at 4:50 and 4:55).

Oh Sry paxxton I thought you were comparing the sound at 4:50 to the link above not the two sounds in the one clip.

They are different sounds but seem similar to an extent.

Yeah, they share some similarities.

The first is used by Harbinger, the second by the Tuchanka Destroyer.

5:03

Good catch! Was it there pre-EC. I really can't remember it being there.

EDIT: Yes, the timetag on the video says April.

Modifié par paxxton, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:02 .

[LaughingDragon]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Trolling presence detected. 

The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem with accepting ME3 happened and is what it is.

[clennon8]

TSA_383 wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

SERVE US has been debunked, as far as I'm concerned. Not sure whether to be sad or glad. That was about the last bit of IT evidence I was clinging to.

I dunno. Even if it's used elsewhere, well they didn't have a lot of time. It's an addition to the ECDLC at a crucial moment, before the beam, which is quite deliberate. Why add anything? It's another clue.

So in the rush to finish the extended cut, they used an existing riff and changed the pitch... so what?

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. THIS IS ASSET RE-USE, WORKING IN FAVOUR OF IT!

Lrn2Logic 

I'm beginning to think we need a "clutching at straws" smilie

Not to say that harbinger isn't supposed to be saying something - do we have confirmation that it was a pre-existing reaper sound?

I can't really go digging around YouTube for it right now, but it happens in the scene with the Destroyer blasting the asari commandos and krogan in London.

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Consider two important factors, though. 

What we know about indoctrination.
&
Bioware stating that they want us to feel what Shepard feels from a first person perspective.

When you put those two things together, anything is fair game, including the idea that everything we're seeing at any given point is just a lie. 

I like the notion behind it.  I really do, and it's why I've defended the idea for a while under the heat of the rest of the forum, since it's within BioWare's creative DNA.  But if there was an opportunity to telegraph a resolution to the broad kind of indoctrination you're suggesting, the EC was it. All eyes were on it, anticipation was high, and BioWare knew this.

They added elements that strengthen versions of that interpretation.  That's a good thing.  But they missed THE opportunity to deliver on the theory.  You have to think about the fact that delivering on the theory will completely negate all of the people's opinions out there (and on the board) about their choices, which vary.  And some people's renegade Shepard might WANT to exact control, or realign everyone's DNA.  If they do anything to strengthen belief in the IT camp, I think it's going to run parallel with the story as an interpretation.  And it's a fine interpretation, folks.

I disagree. I think what the EC does fits quite well in the context of IT. 

What does Indoctrination do? It makes you see what you want to see in order for you to believe in Reaper goals. 

What were the endings as we original had them? I think "multi-colored blank slates" is apt. Then what happened?
Bioware takes all the fan feedback and mushes it together into an EC that is exactly what literalists wanted to see.

Thus they are now in exactly the same situation an indoctrinated individual is in. Their desires have been manipulated in an attempt to get them to believe in 2 of the very concepts we've thematically been driven to oppose for over 100 hours of gameplay and storytelling. 

[dreamgazer]

legaldinho wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

10 secs before evac, harby was shooting at Shepard's squadmates, nearly killing them. The idea that he is anger-managing shep is so utterly deluded, I can't even believe I'm having to spell this out. If that's the motivation why kill anyone? Why target the squadmates?

Did the squad-mates die, outside of soldiers that Shepard might lump into the category of "faceless forces killed by the Reapers"? Demoralization differs from vengeance.  Killing the Normandy and her crew would burn faces in Shepard's mind.

By the way, using words like "deluded" is a real simple way to stop a conversation, as you'll lead the listener of said comments to make the same generalizations.

Wow.

Same could be said for you, buddy. 

I think you need to think about the context of the catalyst's new exposition a bit, and the overall tone.  I understand that's not going to stick in this thread, but it's worth considering when building an interpretation after all this is over and done.  Indoctrination can still fit into all of it, unless you don't want it to and simply force everything into the idea of the "theory" delivering on its promises. 

[Xavendithas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Thus they are now in exactly the same situation an indoctrinated individual is in. Their desires have been manipulated in an attempt to get them to believe in 2 of the very concepts we've thematically been driven to oppose for over 100 hours of gameplay and storytelling. 

This. This very much. Spend any amount of time in the Synthesis or Control threads and this becomes so glaringly obvious.

[legaldinho]

TSA_383 wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

SERVE US has been debunked, as far as I'm concerned. Not sure whether to be sad or glad. That was about the last bit of IT evidence I was clinging to.

I dunno. Even if it's used elsewhere, well they didn't have a lot of time. It's an addition to the ECDLC at a crucial moment, before the beam, which is quite deliberate. Why add anything? It's another clue.

So in the rush to finish the extended cut, they used an existing riff and changed the pitch... so what?

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. THIS IS ASSET RE-USE, WORKING IN FAVOUR OF IT!

Lrn2Logic 

I'm beginning to think we need a "clutching at straws" smilie

Not to say that harbinger isn't supposed to be saying something - do we have confirmation that it was a pre-existing reaper sound?

Way to spot the irony, I thought it was funny to use "asset reuse" in favour of IT.

But I'm still half-serious. For me the extended cut doesn't do away with the clues about indoctrination. Specifically, four additions are made: i) harby says something (and you can say we've heard a version before, but the effect on me, playing the DLC, was quite clear, and in my view was intended); (ii) the reaper beam does not seem to hit you this time, fade to white occurs much earlier and abruptly, immediately after harby's "serve us" "save us" or whatever; (iii) The sound prompt and manner of shepard's waking, and (iv) the switch in voice in the catalyst in refusal. And a lot of the clues from the original ending are retained.

You take the ending as a whole, with all those points, and it is pretty clear they are keen to keep the alternative interpretation that Shepard is fighting indoctrination at the end.

[LaughingDragon]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Let me quote Bioware employee Tully Auckland for you.

There are elements of Mass Effect 3 that are meant to have non-literal
interpretations. The hope is that these things provide
thought-provoking discussion about the themes of the story and the
motivations of characters. As such, we would prefer not to comment on
players’ interpretations of these elements, since it would ruin the
enjoyment of such discussion by suggesting there is a single, concrete
way of viewing them.

Source: http://social.biowar...2916857-1.html

Ok so if you believe what that guy says, then you are saying that ME3 makes no sense, and therefore is open to whatever the players interpretation is. So the game was made to make no sense intentionally so that you could use your imagination to fill in the story?

[legaldinho]

dreamgazer wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

10 secs before evac, harby was shooting at Shepard's squadmates, nearly killing them. The idea that he is anger-managing shep is so utterly deluded, I can't even believe I'm having to spell this out. If that's the motivation why kill anyone? Why target the squadmates?

Did the squad-mates die, outside of soldiers that Shepard might lump into the category of "faceless forces killed by the Reapers"? Demoralization differs from vengeance.  Killing the Normandy and her crew would burn faces in Shepard's mind.

By the way, using words like "deluded" is a real simple way to stop a conversation, as you'll lead the listener of said comments to make the same generalizations.

Wow.

Same could be said for you, buddy. 

I think you need to think about the context of the catalyst's new exposition a bit, and the overall tone.  I understand that's not going to stick in this thread, but it's worth considering when building an interpretation after all this is over and done.  Indoctrination can still fit into all of it, unless you don't want it to and simply force everything into the idea of the "theory" delivering on its promises. 

This isn't about indoctrination, or the themes. It's about saying that harbinger doesn't shoot the normandy because he wants to preserve Shepard's state of just demoralized enough, short of vengeful. Even though he's massacring all the soldiers, london is a ruin, so's all of earth for that matter, and his squadmates nearly got killed... by harbinger. I was wowed by your ability to completely ignore the nonensical nature of your contention.