55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Arian Dynas]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Refusal is a definite choice. Shepard chooses to fight the Reapers without comprimising with the Catalyst. All of the other choices are compromises. Refusal isn't.

I understand where you're coming from. I agree that refusal is a little slippery IT-wise. Still, as much of the EC was added to please literalists, I'd say that the refusal ending itself is such a nod to that part of the fan community. For IT adherents, destroy always was a logical choice. So maybe we shouldn't try to press refusal too much into IT when it was not planned at first. The whole extensive dialogue with the kid makes far less sense than the barely-able  Shepard of the original ending under IT circumstances as well - one of the reasons why I prefer the original version.

This is my stance as well.

Though I expand a bit more, like this;

I'm currently in the camp that says "Destroy is Shepard sticking to his guns and choosing to slog on with what was his original motive from the beginning, since he has the stones to keep fighting, even if he has to sacrifice some things."

Rejection, well that's Shepard trying to play Captain Kirk, choosing not to stick to what he has been going for since the beginning since something unappealing was tacked on, but not completely breaking and going over to Control and remaining canny enough not to be tricked by Synthesis, basically demanding a third option, only to discover there isn't one.

In "Reject" Shepard is canny and wise enough not to fall for indoctrination, but not determined enough to break free, and so Harbinger kills him. 

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Is there a way to save Legion? If not, Tali should die too.

Legion/Geth VI always die one way or another regardless of what happens. It's a vital part of the theme regarding how synthetics show some of the same characteristics of organics when it comes to things like sacrifice, freedom, and fighting for what you believe in.

You mean unnecessary death?

Not one for themes, are you?

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

[paxxton]

masster blaster wrote...

Sorry I ment no Legion dies either way but Tali cries over Legion so. Hehehe.

Well, she jumped off the cliff.

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Is there a way to save Legion? If not, Tali should die too.

Legion/Geth VI always die one way or another regardless of what happens. It's a vital part of the theme regarding how synthetics show some of the same characteristics of organics when it comes to things like sacrifice, freedom, and fighting for what you believe in.

You mean unnecessary death?

Not one for themes, are you?

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Is there a way to save Legion? If not, Tali should die too.

Legion/Geth VI always die one way or another regardless of what happens. It's a vital part of the theme regarding how synthetics show some of the same characteristics of organics when it comes to things like sacrifice, freedom, and fighting for what you believe in.

You mean unnecessary death?

Not one for themes, are you?

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

No, they are mentally impaired.
Drama -> tragedy -> the end

Modifié par paxxton, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:13 .

[masster blaster]

So when will CleverNoob release the part three of IT?

[jgibson14352]

RampantAndroid wrote...

But do we know it's the london rubble? I see no real evidence to substantiate that, because what you're saying is that the ending scenes - ostensibly after Shep is dead - mean nothing.

Further, you're equating the idea that the developers wanted to make you indoctrinated at some point to the idea that you're indoctrinated at the end, which is a bad assumption I think. We do not know how they wanted to use that, if at all. I highly doubt they planned to end the series with a "everything you did was pointless, because now you're indoctrinated and the galaxy will burrnnnnnn." Everyone we've seen who was indoctrinated lost control, and was unable to question their decisions.

Further, everything we know about indoctrination is that it must happen while in close proximity to a reaper/reaper tech - and it takes time. How long did it take for the Cerberus team in ME2 to go insane? Or the Batarians who found Leviathon? Or the team in Arrival? It wasn't instantaneous. Honestly, IT seems a stretch at best - no matter what variation of it you pick. The only curious point I see is where is Shep when the post-credits scene happens? And what did the dreams mean? At BEST I could see that the whole thing was a dream, but not Shep being indoctrinated.

1. the point of shepard being indoctrinated was that he would have the ability to overcome that indoctrination and finish off the reapers for good, i imagine that if it was expanded upon, that would be an option, but you can be sure that by breaking free its the reapers that burn
2. no. the illusive man could break free and shoot himself, as could saren. benezia broke free. as did shiala. and the rachni queen, though that was never expanded on.
3. no. the indoctrination itself can only happen through proximity, yes, but once distance has been gained the indoctrination is still in effect, it just cant get stronger unless the indoctee actively has reaper tech inside them.
4. no. indoctrination can vary in speed. a long lasting and effective subject has had it take place slowly, but indoctrination can take place over mere days.

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

No, they are mentally impaired.
Drama -> tragedy -> the end

Where do you draw the line, paxxton? If you keep calling things unnecessary and wishing you could rewrite them to go the way you want, you end up ruining the themes and eventually wind up with something other than what the author intended. Trust me, I know when a character is killed off senselessly as a cheap means of adding artificial drama or to avoid having to develop their character further, and Legion's death is certainly not that. 

[Turbo_J]

jgibson14352 wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Vaya wrote...

I am inclined to think that Shepard is actually staggering around doing SOMETHING while the citadel scenes are running, so she really does shoot some object that explodes in her face. Whatever you do in synthesis and control seem to more or less just kill you (run over by a train in control, jumping into a recycling vat in synthesis, just guesses).

So more a hallucination opposed to a dream?

I agree and mentioned this about 50 pages ago. We may be doing a video on it, but not sure. It possible that both the run to the beam and the hobble to the decision chamber actually take place at the same time. Full on hallucination, but Shep is active.

Destroy actually blows up a power generator for an indoctrination beacon. This is slightly backed up by the datapad found in the FOB.

what datapad?

This one.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:16 .

[jgibson14352]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Is there a way to save Legion? If not, Tali should die too.

Legion/Geth VI always die one way or another regardless of what happens. It's a vital part of the theme regarding how synthetics show some of the same characteristics of organics when it comes to things like sacrifice, freedom, and fighting for what you believe in.

You mean unnecessary death?

Not one for themes, are you?

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

he states that direct personality dissemination is required, meaning that while his programs are still running and in use, what made him him is gone forever. the codex states that a shift of a program into different states results in a loss of personality

@turbo
thanks for posting that, i do remember seeing something like that in game

Modifié par jgibson14352, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:19 .

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

No, they are mentally impaired.
Drama -> tragedy -> the end

Where do you draw the line, paxxton? If you keep calling things unnecessary and wishing you could rewrite them to go the way you want, you end up ruining the themes and eventually wind up with something other than what the author intended. Trust me, I know when a character is killed off senselessly as a cheap means of adding artificial drama or to avoid having to develop their character further, and Legion's death is certainly not that. 

I would understand it if he wasn't an AI but he is. It was sad but also artificial because there was a straightforward way to save him.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:20 .

[RampantAndroid]

On point 1, yes, that is my point. The game wouldn't END with it. You're saying here there's a hidden "LOL you're indoctrinated and let them live!" ending.

On point 2, they broke free and ONLY shot themselves, or were taken back over. No one has become free again.

On 3, Shep needed to be indoctrinated by Sovereign, the dead reaper, or during Arrival then. All of which I doubt to be true. Esp since the Prothian VI doesn't say you're indoctrinated.

On 4, link to canon to back that up. Regardless though, Shep has not been in contact with the reaper tech for days, and it's indicated he resisted it in arrival. He either was indoctrinated before ME3 meaning ME3 is a total joke on the player, or somehow not shown in ME3.

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

No, they are mentally impaired.
Drama -> tragedy -> the end

Where do you draw the line, paxxton? If you keep calling things unnecessary and wishing you could rewrite them to go the way you want, you end up ruining the themes and eventually wind up with something other than what the author intended. Trust me, I know when a character is killed off senselessly as a cheap means of adding artificial drama or to avoid having to develop their character further, and Legion's death is certainly not that. 

I would understand it if he wasn't an AI but he is. It was sad but also artificial because there was a straightforward way to save him.

Fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree. 

[Dougy Fresh]

RampantAndroid wrote...

On point 1, yes, that is my point. The game wouldn't END with it. You're saying here there's a hidden "LOL you're indoctrinated and let them live!" ending.

On point 2, they broke free and ONLY shot themselves, or were taken back over. No one has become free again.

On 3, Shep needed to be indoctrinated by Sovereign, the dead reaper, or during Arrival then. All of which I doubt to be true. Esp since the Prothian VI doesn't say you're indoctrinated.

On 4, link to canon to back that up. Regardless though, Shep has not been in contact with the reaper tech for days, and it's indicated he resisted it in arrival. He either was indoctrinated before ME3 meaning ME3 is a total joke on the player, or somehow not shown in ME3.

IT states shepard is NOT indoctrinated. Rather, the reapers have been attempting to do so over many months. See codex on indoctrination process.

[jgibson14352]

RampantAndroid wrote...

On point 1, yes, that is my point. The game wouldn't END with it. You're saying here there's a hidden "LOL you're indoctrinated and let them live!" ending.

On point 2, they broke free and ONLY shot themselves, or were taken back over. No one has become free again.

On 3, Shep needed to be indoctrinated by Sovereign, the dead reaper, or during Arrival then. All of which I doubt to be true. Esp since the Prothian VI doesn't say you're indoctrinated.

On 4, link to canon to back that up. Regardless though, Shep has not been in contact with the reaper tech for days, and it's indicated he resisted it in arrival. He either was indoctrinated before ME3 meaning ME3 is a total joke on the player, or somehow not shown in ME3.

2. yes, shiala became free, and so did the rachni queen (maybe/probably)
no, he has been surrounded by reaper tech multiple times, chech the collector ship/base, thousands of reaper ground forces, and in arrival indoc forces had literally 2 days to do whatever while he slept.
3. its been theorized that prothean VIs can only detect indoc in its final stages, not the while its still early.
4. evolution, ME novels folllowing grayson, shialas dialogue in ME1, and im sure theres a few more but those are the big ones.

[paxxton]

It's that simple.
[Reaper horn]

Modifié par paxxton, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:25 .

[Turbo_J]

jgibson14352 wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

On point 1, yes, that is my point. The game wouldn't END with it. You're saying here there's a hidden "LOL you're indoctrinated and let them live!" ending.

On point 2, they broke free and ONLY shot themselves, or were taken back over. No one has become free again.

On 3, Shep needed to be indoctrinated by Sovereign, the dead reaper, or during Arrival then. All of which I doubt to be true. Esp since the Prothian VI doesn't say you're indoctrinated.

On 4, link to canon to back that up. Regardless though, Shep has not been in contact with the reaper tech for days, and it's indicated he resisted it in arrival. He either was indoctrinated before ME3 meaning ME3 is a total joke on the player, or somehow not shown in ME3.

2. yes, shiala became free, and so did the rachni queen (maybe/probably)
no, he has been surrounded by reaper tech multiple times, chech the collector ship/base, thousands of reaper ground forces, and in arrival indoc forces had literally 2 days to do whatever while he slept.
3. its been theorized that prothean VIs can only detect indoc in its final stages, not the while its still early.
4. evolution, ME novels folllowing grayson, shialas dialogue in ME1, and im sure theres a few more but those are the big ones.

Shiala is NOT free. She is indoctrinated but is able to resist because of her link to the other members of Zhu's Hope. They are linked mentally due to the Thorian spores. This collective conciousness helps keep her grounded. If she was not with that group, her fate would likely have been similar to Rana's; provided you didn't put a bullet in her head on Virmire.

From her ME3 email

"I'm not sure if you remember me, but you helped me back on lllium. The Thorian is dead now. I can confirm that. But the spores in our bodies remain, and on some level, we are still connected.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. As we fight back the Reapers, we feel each other, and act with one mind, ignoring pain when the need arises. I'm sure I'm still indoctrinated. I remember Sovereign's voice in my mind when I went willingly to the Thorian as its thrall. But my connection to the people of Zhu's Hope is stronger. It drowns out the Reaper voices.

This situation is imperfect, and dangerous. Perhaps the colonists should separate, for their own safety. But with one mind, the untrained fight with the skill of veteran commandos. Our force is strong."

Modifié par Turbo_J, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:31 .

[BansheeOwnage]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

No, they are mentally impaired.
Drama -> tragedy -> the end

Where do you draw the line, paxxton? If you keep calling things unnecessary and wishing you could rewrite them to go the way you want, you end up ruining the themes and eventually wind up with something other than what the author intended. Trust me, I know when a character is killed off senselessly as a cheap means of adding artificial drama or to avoid having to develop their character further, and Legion's death is certainly not that. 

I would understand it if he wasn't an AI but he is. It was sad but also artificial because there was a straightforward way to save him.

Fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree. 

You forgot to tell him there is no way of saving him.

[paxxton]

I know. Legion always dies.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:33 .

[HellishFiend]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I would understand it if he wasn't an AI but he is. It was sad but also artificial because there was a straightforward way to save him.

Fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree. 

You forgot to tell him there is no way of saving him.

paxxton is arguing that Legion's death serves no purpose to the themes or plot because he feels the author could have devised an easy way to save him. 

[BansheeOwnage]

paxxton wrote...

I know. Legion always dies.

I know you know. I mean there is no "straight forward way of saving him" like you said.

[RampantAndroid]

Yeah - Shiala only broke free due to the Thorian. Again, you're confirming indoc needed to happen prior to ME3. If it's so simple to become indoc by just fighting the reaper forces, then all of earth, palavan, thessia and such would be done already.

As for the prothean VIs, you're using one theory to back another theory up. This doesn't seem wise.

[plfranke]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Legion can't die because he can upload himself to another platform. His death is stretching the theme and is unnecessary.

And I suppose you also think Romeo And Juliet is just a story about idiots killing themselves because there are a number of ways the tragedy could have been avoided?

No, they are mentally impaired.
Drama -> tragedy -> the end

Where do you draw the line, paxxton? If you keep calling things unnecessary and wishing you could rewrite them to go the way you want, you end up ruining the themes and eventually wind up with something other than what the author intended. Trust me, I know when a character is killed off senselessly as a cheap means of adding artificial drama or to avoid having to develop their character further, and Legion's death is certainly not that. 

I would understand it if he wasn't an AI but he is. It was sad but also artificial because there was a straightforward way to save him.

Fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree. 

I have to say though Hellish I still really don't understand why exactly Legion had to die. I'm all for "what the author intended" but they could have at least explained it better.

[jgibson14352]

Turbo_J wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

On point 1, yes, that is my point. The game wouldn't END with it. You're saying here there's a hidden "LOL you're indoctrinated and let them live!" ending.

On point 2, they broke free and ONLY shot themselves, or were taken back over. No one has become free again.

On 3, Shep needed to be indoctrinated by Sovereign, the dead reaper, or during Arrival then. All of which I doubt to be true. Esp since the Prothian VI doesn't say you're indoctrinated.

On 4, link to canon to back that up. Regardless though, Shep has not been in contact with the reaper tech for days, and it's indicated he resisted it in arrival. He either was indoctrinated before ME3 meaning ME3 is a total joke on the player, or somehow not shown in ME3.

2. yes, shiala became free, and so did the rachni queen (maybe/probably)
no, he has been surrounded by reaper tech multiple times, chech the collector ship/base, thousands of reaper ground forces, and in arrival indoc forces had literally 2 days to do whatever while he slept.
3. its been theorized that prothean VIs can only detect indoc in its final stages, not the while its still early.
4. evolution, ME novels folllowing grayson, shialas dialogue in ME1, and im sure theres a few more but those are the big ones.

Shiala is NOT free. She is indoctrinated but is able to resist because of her link to the other members of Zhu's Hope. They are linked mentally due to the Thorian spores. This collective conciousness helps keep her grounded. If she was not with that group, her fate would likely have been similar to Rana's; provided you didn't put a bullet in her head on Virmire.

i think were misunderstanding each other, lets agree on this-there is no set point where an individual is indoctrinated. indoctrinated means that they hear voices that tell them to further reaper goals, whether knowingly or not. by free, i meant they still had the capacity to resist, like what the rachni queen said "we hear the voices,l but they cannot control us". shialas email said she still heard the voices, but the collective consciousness of Zhus hope helped her to ignore them
indoctrination is something that builds, it starts weak and gets stronger, there isnt button you push to indoctrinate someone, unless you turn them into husks

Modifié par jgibson14352, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:39 .

[paxxton]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I know. Legion always dies.

I know you know. I mean there is no "straight forward way of saving him" like you said.

There is but not in the game.