55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Arian Dynas]

Andromidius wrote...

To explain Legion's 'death', these are the basic details.

Firstly, he tried to copy the subroutines that his platform was running to safely make use of Reaper upgrades. This proved impossible, possibly due to his unique nature - the codes simply wouldn't work for their operating systems.

So instead he does the only thing he can think of - disessemble his essembled Geth AI's, each with a copy of the Reaper code, and distributed it to Geth mainframes for them to be copied and integrated into standard Geth AI's.

Basically it would be like a skin graft, only on a massive scale. In the end, there was nothing left of the AI mainframe called 'Legion'.

Actually, the copy he was attempting to transmit was corrupted in transit, he says as much, and the only uncorrupted copy he had was inextricably bound within his runtimes, therefore, a little piece of Legion is within every Geth now.

And yes, Legion could be brought back to life, IF, and only if, each and every single one of the disparate runtimes part of his coding were brought back together in exactly the same configuration, in exactly the same quantum Bluebox as the Legion platform.

It's the same reason why, if an AI is killed, it cannot be brought back, you could copy the same files to a new quantum Bluebox, but each and every bluebox is different and unique, meaning that the electrical pathways, similar to the unique synaptic pathways in each human brain, will be formed differently, leading to something entirely different from the original AI, much like what happened to EDI to begin with. She had the files of the Luna VI, but her Bluebox was different, resulting in a different personality.

[lex0r11]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Oh, by the way, thought you guys would appreciate this;

+1

Look! A third hand with two thumbs!

[RampantAndroid]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

Yeah - Shiala only broke free due to the Thorian. Again, you're confirming indoc needed to happen prior to ME3. If it's so simple to become indoc by just fighting the reaper forces, then all of earth, palavan, thessia and such would be done already.

As for the prothean VIs, you're using one theory to back another theory up. This doesn't seem wise.

You have 2 options:
1. The indoc VI can only detect late-stage indoc
2. The indoc VI is a plothole

Oops.

Or 3. Prothean tech to detect indoc came after the sabotage. Or 4. The VI never came in contact with the people who were indoctrinated. Remember, it took a long time for the protheans to be eliminated. Javik was born after they arrived and is grown up. He says it took 10 years at least IIRC. So no, there are more options than 2. You keep trying to fill in gaps with information that you then call facts to back up your IT. The pint is you're simply basing theories on other theories based on assumptions.

Modifié par RampantAndroid, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:09 .

[comrade gando]

ok so if there never was a form on indoctrination happening, then how are the dreams of the child that the catalyst reveals itself to be justified? It’s just totally pointless!

[Andromidius]

plfranke wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

To explain Legion's 'death', these are the basic details.

Firstly, he tried to copy the subroutines that his platform was running to safely make use of Reaper upgrades. This proved impossible, possibly due to his unique nature - the codes simply wouldn't work for their operating systems.

So instead he does the only thing he can think of - disessemble his essembled Geth AI's, each with a copy of the Reaper code, and distributed it to Geth mainframes for them to be copied and integrated into standard Geth AI's.

Basically it would be like a skin graft, only on a massive scale. In the end, there was nothing left of the AI mainframe called 'Legion'.

if it had been explained in the game half as well as you just did we wouldn't be having this explanation. the problem is I could give the exact same explanation for synthesis but the haters would just deny it and say "lol space magic"

Yeah, though software works differently to hardware.  Which is the main difference, ultimately - the Geth are software, their platforms are merely tools.  Synthesis would (apperently) not alter the software of Organics, only their hardware - but it would alter the software of Synthetics (apperently just giving them 'understanding'...and green lights.

But yeah, Legion's 'death' needed to be better explained.  Definately.  But that's what I inferred from the available lore and exposition.

[jgibson14352]

all of these explanations are very good and extremely plausible, yet synthesis is is inexplicable and implausible.
the only way you can even attempt to explain synthesis without space magic is nanobots, which would have to have every single person of every single species' DNA code, along with countless raw materials, and a method of transportation. and no, it couldnt be the crucible. it could for earth, but in order for it to spread to other people in other systems, each relay would have to have an unlimited supply of nanites that it could disperse when signaled, along with the code information and the raw materials

[Andromidius]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Actually, the copy he was attempting to transmit was corrupted in transit, he says as much, and the only uncorrupted copy he had was inextricably bound within his runtimes, therefore, a little piece of Legion is within every Geth now.

Hmm.  That makes sense too.  So in a way it would have just been a quick fix, instead of slowly removing Geth from the Legion platform to spread them across the Concensus and then replacing them.

Which in a way makes sense as well - the Geth didn't have time, the Quarians wouldn't back down from the weakened and disoriented Geth.  Legion had to upgrade them NOW, and then Shepard convinced the Quarians to back down with the knowledge they wouldn't be able to win once the upgrade was complete.

It also poses as a sort of anti-virus for the Geth too, doesn't it?  Prevents further attempts from the Reapers to retake control of them?

[RampantAndroid]

comrade gando wrote...

ok so if there never was a form on indoctrination happening, then how are the dreams of the child that the catalyst reveals itself to be justified? It’s just totally pointless!

No, the catalyst appears as the child. You do not know that the catalyst is the child. You've never had a recurring nightmare? Is the kid suspicious? Yes - the way he goes poof on Earth, then re-appears a bit later is odd, but there is never any line that says "btw, the kid you've been dreaming about was me the whole time!" (queue inception music.)

If the Prothean VI can read indoctrination, and protheans transmit memories, could not another VI/AI capable of controlling the reapers not be able to read your memory and appear as something that is very vivid and recent?

Modifié par RampantAndroid, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:14 .

[Arian Dynas]

Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Actually, the copy he was attempting to transmit was corrupted in transit, he says as much, and the only uncorrupted copy he had was inextricably bound within his runtimes, therefore, a little piece of Legion is within every Geth now.

Hmm.  That makes sense too.  So in a way it would have just been a quick fix, instead of slowly removing Geth from the Legion platform to spread them across the Concensus and then replacing them.

Which in a way makes sense as well - the Geth didn't have time, the Quarians wouldn't back down from the weakened and disoriented Geth.  Legion had to upgrade them NOW, and then Shepard convinced the Quarians to back down with the knowledge they wouldn't be able to win once the upgrade was complete.

It also poses as a sort of anti-virus for the Geth too, doesn't it?  Prevents further attempts from the Reapers to retake control of them?

Yepper.

[Andromidius]

RampantAndroid wrote...

No, the catalyst appears as the child. You do not know that the catalyst is the child. You've never had a recurring nightmare? Is the kid suspicious? Yes - the way he goes poof on Earth, then re-appears a bit later is odd, but there is never any line that says "btw, the kid you've been dreaming about was me the whole time!" (queue inception music.)

Its even weirder that Shepard doesn't even ask why the Catalyst took that form.  Or even give any indication of suprise at the situation.

Another sure sign that something is wrong.

[dreamgazer]

Andromidius wrote...

Its even weirder that Shepard doesn't even ask why the Catalyst took that form.  Or even give any indication of suprise at the situation.

Another sure sign that something is wrong.

I was really hoping they were going to do this in the EC.  Hell, they could've done it in a way that retains other interpretations and maintained the intrigue. 

[comrade gando]

RampantAndroid wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

ok so if there never was a form on indoctrination happening, then how are the dreams of the child that the catalyst reveals itself to be justified? It’s just totally pointless!

No, the catalyst appears as the child. You do not know that the catalyst is the child. You've never had a recurring nightmare? Is the kid suspicious? Yes - the way he goes poof on Earth, then re-appears a bit later is odd, but there is never any line that says "btw, the kid you've been dreaming about was me the whole time!" (queue inception music.)

If the Prothean VI can read indoctrination, and protheans transmit memories, could not another VI/AI capable of controlling the reapers not be able to read your memory and appear as something that is very vivid and recent?

ok then why would he turn into harbinger it sounds like and be like SO BE IT... then turn back into the child and be like the cycle continues rofl /shrug

[Andromidius]

Arian Dynas wrote...
Yepper.

Thanks, that makes perfect sense.  Also makes me a bit 'happier' for his sacrifice too.

Might also explain why Legion decided the Reaper upgrades were required, it wasn't a lazy path to advance synthetic evolution (something he mentions as being not in the interests of True Geth).  They needed the upgrade to save the species, both from the Quarians and the Reapers.

So in a way it was a bigger sacrifice then suspected.

Then again, it also might have a similar undertone to Synthesis...  Its unclear if Legion asked permission to upgrade the Geth (though we can assume it was in communication with them due to their proximity?)...

[plfranke]

Andromidius wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

To explain Legion's 'death', these are the basic details.

Firstly, he tried to copy the subroutines that his platform was running to safely make use of Reaper upgrades. This proved impossible, possibly due to his unique nature - the codes simply wouldn't work for their operating systems.

So instead he does the only thing he can think of - disessemble his essembled Geth AI's, each with a copy of the Reaper code, and distributed it to Geth mainframes for them to be copied and integrated into standard Geth AI's.

Basically it would be like a skin graft, only on a massive scale. In the end, there was nothing left of the AI mainframe called 'Legion'.

if it had been explained in the game half as well as you just did we wouldn't be having this explanation. the problem is I could give the exact same explanation for synthesis but the haters would just deny it and say "lol space magic"

Yeah, though software works differently to hardware.  Which is the main difference, ultimately - the Geth are software, their platforms are merely tools.  Synthesis would (apperently) not alter the software of Organics, only their hardware - but it would alter the software of Synthetics (apperently just giving them 'understanding'...and green lights.

But yeah, Legion's 'death' needed to be better explained.  Definately.  But that's what I inferred from the available lore and exposition.

that's all I was looking for. I think sometimes there is a bit of one sidedness on this thread where some of the die hard ITers say one thing is evidence but deny the same thing in other places of the game.

[Andromidius]

dreamgazer wrote...

I was really hoping they were going to do this in the EC.  Hell, they could've done it in a way that retains other interpretations and maintained the intrigue. 

Shepard: "Why do you look like a child?"
Catalyst: "Because I thought it would put you at ease so we can have this conversation."
Shepard: "But how do you know what the child who's been haunting my dreams for weeks on end looks like?"
Catalyst: "..."
Shepard: "Well?  Are you reading my mind?"
Harbinger: "Dammit."

[Arian Dynas]

Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
Yepper.

Thanks, that makes perfect sense.  Also makes me a bit 'happier' for his sacrifice too.

Might also explain why Legion decided the Reaper upgrades were required, it wasn't a lazy path to advance synthetic evolution (something he mentions as being not in the interests of True Geth).  They needed the upgrade to save the species, both from the Quarians and the Reapers.

So in a way it was a bigger sacrifice then suspected.

Then again, it also might have a similar undertone to Synthesis...  Its unclear if Legion asked permission to upgrade the Geth (though we can assume it was in communication with them due to their proximity?)...

The Geth already had been upgraded. They liked it, he was merely re-upgrading them, and I highly doubt he could have done anything WITHOUT the consesus of the species.

[HellishFiend]

plfranke, I apologize. I assumed you understood the basic concepts in Andromidius' above explanation, and that's why I reacted the way I did.

[jgibson14352]

RampantAndroid wrote...


Yeah - Shiala only broke free due to the Thorian. Again, you're confirming indoc needed to happen prior to ME3. If it's so simple to become indoc by just fighting the reaper forces, then all of earth, palavan, thessia and such would be done already.

As for the prothean VIs, you're using one theory to back another theory up. This doesn't seem wise.

no, youre contradicting yourself. you yourself stated the answer to this, indoctrination works through proximity. just because youre on the same planet as a reaper it doesnt mean you will be indoctrinated, you have to be close.

Modifié par jgibson14352, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[Andromidius]

Arian Dynas wrote...

The Geth already had been upgraded. They liked it, he was merely re-upgrading them, and I highly doubt he could have done anything WITHOUT the consesus of the species.

Point.  Though weren't the Geth pretty much mind-slaves while upgraded, and losing the upgrade caused them to be rather confused and disorganised?

Probably leading into a second wave of desperation - only this time the solution comes from one of their own, and not from a Reaper.  Hense why they accepted - no time to find an alternative, and they can get the best of both worlds - upgraded and free.  Its a win-win situation for them.

[boeloe]

Andromidius wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

No, the catalyst appears as the child. You do not know that the catalyst is the child. You've never had a recurring nightmare? Is the kid suspicious? Yes - the way he goes poof on Earth, then re-appears a bit later is odd, but there is never any line that says "btw, the kid you've been dreaming about was me the whole time!" (queue inception music.)

Its even weirder that Shepard doesn't even ask why the Catalyst took that form.  Or even give any indication of suprise at the situation.

Another sure sign that something is wrong.

This is actually my favorite clue at the moment. Why would a 1 billion year old AI choose to take the form of a human child who is haunting Shepard's dreams?

There are 2 options:
1. reapers planted image of child in Shepards brain
2. reapers took image of child from Shepards brain

Both spell bad news for Shepard and is good reason to place further questionmarks at everything the catalyst says.

Modifié par boeloe, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[HellishFiend]

Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

The Geth already had been upgraded. They liked it, he was merely re-upgrading them, and I highly doubt he could have done anything WITHOUT the consesus of the species.

Point.  Though weren't the Geth pretty much mind-slaves while upgraded, and losing the upgrade caused them to be rather confused and disorganised?

Probably leading into a second wave of desperation - only this time the solution comes from one of their own, and not from a Reaper.  Hense why they accepted - no time to find an alternative, and they can get the best of both worlds - upgraded and free.  Its a win-win situation for them.

I suppose it would hinge on whether or not they were self-aware while under the influence of the Reaper signal. My guess is that they werent. They are computer programs after all. Legion was the only one that was both sentient and self aware up until he distributed the upgrade along with his "personality" to the entire consensus. 

[Andromidius]

jgibson14352 wrote...

no, youre contradicting yourself. you youreself stated the answer to this, indoctrination works through proximity. just because youre on the same planet as a reaper it doesnt mean you will be indoctrinated, you have to be close.

Close and for a significant amount of time.  Though its accumilative, so sustained combat even with Husks would lead to at least the onset of Indoctrination - the breaking down of the mental defenses, seeding doubt and fear in their minds so they don't want to keep fighting.

Its pretty nasty really.  Best way to kill Reapers would be from space where you don't have to go anywhere near them.

[Andromidius]

boeloe wrote...

There are 2 options:
1. reapers planted image of child in Shepards brain
2. reapers took image of child from Shepards brain

I can think of two (crazy) other options:

3/ Shepard is crazy and is seeing things - the Catalyst looks like a floating squid brain really.
4/ The Destroyer that killed the child in the shuttle took pictures and noticed Shepard's facial expression before passing it onto the Catalyst.  The Catalyst then uses the image as a gambit manipulation.  The dreams are coincidence.

Both are pretty crazy and weak.  Your two options are the most likely, though I lean towards #1.

[jgibson14352]

Andromidius wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

no, youre contradicting yourself. you youreself stated the answer to this, indoctrination works through proximity. just because youre on the same planet as a reaper it doesnt mean you will be indoctrinated, you have to be close.

Close and for a significant amount of time.  Though its accumilative, so sustained combat even with Husks would lead to at least the onset of Indoctrination - the breaking down of the mental defenses, seeding doubt and fear in their minds so they don't want to keep fighting.

Its pretty nasty really.  Best way to kill Reapers would be from space where you don't have to go anywhere near them.

but if they find you, its not the little ones like banshees and brutes you have to worry about, its the big, screeching, boss ones that can take on a whole fleet

[Simon_Says]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Actually, the copy he was attempting to transmit was corrupted in transit, he says as much, and the only uncorrupted copy he had was inextricably bound within his runtimes, therefore, a little piece of Legion is within every Geth now.

And yes, Legion could be brought back to life, IF, and only if, each and every single one of the disparate runtimes part of his coding were brought back together in exactly the same configuration, in exactly the same quantum Bluebox as the Legion platform.

It's the same reason why, if an AI is killed, it cannot be brought back, you could copy the same files to a new quantum Bluebox, but each and every bluebox is different and unique, meaning that the electrical pathways, similar to the unique synaptic pathways in each human brain, will be formed differently, leading to something entirely different from the original AI, much like what happened to EDI to begin with. She had the files of the Luna VI, but her Bluebox was different, resulting in a different personality.

Come to think of it, check out the wiki or the codex.

AI's that run on quantum blueboxes like EDI can't be copied or moved outside of their quantum blue box. But neither source says that if the blue box is destroyed that the intelligence within it is unretreivable. People just keep assuming that's the case.

But Shepard suffered brain death, and yet was restored to full functionality. Was it really the same person? Two folks can provide the answer. Grunt possesses memories foreign to his own 'runtime', and explicitly states that though he has knowledge and memories, he does not share any connection with either them or his creator, who probably modelled Grunt after himself. Reaper!Shepard pretty much states outright that Reaper!Shepard and Shepard are seperate entities entirely. Not to mention the obvious change of personality.

Yet Shepard maintains connection with their previous life. No one observes any change of personality. Aside from a minor existential crisis on Cronos, no one doubts that Shepard came back. So apparently fixing the brain can restore the person.

Engage Project Lazarus 2.