55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Simon_Says]

RampantAndroid wrote...

Err, you seem to be assuming that the reapers directly control the indoctrinated? IMO, it looked more like TIM and Saren were indotrinated to the point that their actions played into the hands of the reapers, but not so much so that their every action was being controlled.

Same reason I bet they cut the indoctrination stuff from ME3 - to do it right, you would need to mislead the player into making decisions tha helped the reapers, not simply remove control from the player.

I noticed you have a habit of trying to argue against Indoc Theory, but you then say something that only affirms our side.

Yeah, trick the player into helping the reapers. That's exactly what we're saying the Crucible chamber is all about.

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

Err, you seem to be assuming that the reapers directly control the indoctrinated? IMO, it looked more like TIM and Saren were indotrinated to the point that their actions played into the hands of the reapers, but not so much so that their every action was being controlled.

Same reason I bet they cut the indoctrination stuff from ME3 - to do it right, you would need to mislead the player into making decisions tha helped the reapers, not simply remove control from the player.

I noticed you have a habit of trying to argue against Indoc Theory, but you then say something that only affirms our side.

Yeah, trick the player into helping the reapers. That's exactly what we're saying the Crucible chamber is all about.

If BW read Rampant's post, they'd be high fiving over it. 

[Simon_Says]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

*walks in through the back door*

*chinchillin'*

So, what's happenin?

Not much.

[jgibson14352]

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

no, i was assuming that was what rampant was talking about, trust me i know my ME universe. nobody BUT chandana ever studied a reaper ship, minus the batarian scientist that balak straight up told us were indoctrinated, and eventually turned against the Hedgemony

See "cerberus ship" heading.

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF 

You do in fact see a team of scientists that are slowly indoctrinated and go insane.

Dr Chandana team WAS the cerberus team on that reaper. ill say it again, i know my ME univers. saying that, i do need to correct my last statement, Dr. Qian and the cerberus teams on cronos station also studied reapers.

[masster blaster]

Also Javik or your love interest would try to stop you, and you all no that you can not say no to your Li if it meant the end of the World, and EDI and the GETH are fine to give up there lives so i am okay with them dying even if the Prices is to high it will be good to see the Catalyst curse Shepard for picking Destroy but hay if it was an illusion then maybe the Geth and Edi do survive like Bioware said but they meant not right now but later on you will see if the live in future DLC so maybe.

[CoolioThane]

I will say again, RampantAndroid. If you wish to continue trying to dissuade us from IT you had better know that ain't gonna happen, and your rebuttals are not helping your cause...and in some cases backing up the IT. As you said you "hope this is the last we see of ME", in which case I suggest you leave...as we want MOAR!

[RampantAndroid]

jgibson14352 wrote...

thats what this thread is about!!!!! we think that, through IT, by choosing control or synthesis you are mistakenly playing into the reapers hands. and indoctrination works by rewriting neural pathways through subsonic and ultrasonic frequencies, the reapers would be able to control how they influenced you by alternating signals and connecting and rewriting different pathways

I know darn well what you people are on about with IT. However there is a free choice for the player to make. I cannot believe for a second that Bioware would release a game, "indoctrinate" you as the player making you pick synthesis or control such that you allow the cycle to continue, and then not lord it over you in some way but instead dress it up as an actual resolution to a 3 part, 120 hour trilogy. The idea that IT is the actual solution is complete invention by people wanting a proper ending (which, is something we all should want) and creating a theory to make it come true.

If Bioware actually meant this ending as indoctrination, then they've pretty much rick roll'd all ME players in such a way that the vast majority will basically stop buying any and all Bioware games, myself included. There is no way for IT to be true and for this to work in Bioware's favor.

[Auralius Carolus]

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

no, i was assuming that was what rampant was talking about, trust me i know my ME universe. nobody BUT chandana ever studied a reaper ship, minus the batarian scientist that balak straight up told us were indoctrinated, and eventually turned against the Hedgemony

See "cerberus ship" heading.

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF 

You do in fact see a team of scientists that are slowly indoctrinated and go insane.

That was Chandana's team. "But even a dead god can dream."

[Either.Ardrey]

Andromidius wrote...

I'm a guy and honestly I agree - Big Ben Coats is a hunk of manmeat.  And Turian women were sorely ignored in ME3, despite a good chance to introduce them on Palavan.  Though it is mentioned that humans struggle to tell the difference between Turians, so its possible we've seen lots of female Turians already and they just look exactly like males (we already know they serve in the military as wel).  Heck, half the Turians we talk to may have been women too and they just have deep voices!

Old and off topic, but in the comics, female Turians are shown and described as not having head fringes. So all Turians in the games are indeed male.

RampantAndroid wrote...


Or 3. Prothean tech to detect indoc came after the sabotage. Or 4. The VI never came in contact with the people who were indoctrinated. Remember, it took a long time for the protheans to be eliminated. Javik was born after they arrived and is grown up. He says it took 10 years at least IIRC. So no, there are more options than 2. You keep trying to fill in gaps with information that you then call facts to back up your IT. The pint is you're simply basing theories on other theories based on assumptions.

3. Even if so, the timeline would still go Sabatoge->Make VI-> Further sabatoge still occurs by indoctrinated forces until the the cycle is over

4. Possible, granted, but highly, HIGHlY unlikely given that indoctinated forces were everywhere. And if there were no more indoctinated forces left to come into contact with, then there would have been no need to build it since the Reapers are gone. And considering this technology was seemingly built into most or all of these VIs (and the fact that it's found on Thessia), it had to have been built a decent while before the end of the war.

[Auralius Carolus]

HellishFiend wrote...
Have the chinchillas uncovered any profound discoveries lately? 

Still crunching the numbers on the odds of the Crucible being a trap; that's going to take a while, being mostly qualitative data.

Also, they have determined that the odds of Shepard's indoctrination during the Rho incident is on the verge of 100%. Admittedly, certain details are missing and the sample size of people who have come in contact with Reaper Artifacts is low, but everything else is promising.

[Andromidius]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

And of course, IT assumes the Crucible has yet to fire. One of the more popular theories around here is that the Crucible is in fact the power source for the Citadel Mass Relay, as well as as sort of massive Reaper gas-station, which we then could potentially jerry-rig into a single gigantic Mass Accelerator Cannon as a conventional superweapon. Others can fill you in on the details if you are interested.

That just gave me the funny idea that the Crucible is actually just a battery for the Citadel, and the Reapers leave the plans around for Organics to find so they can recharge the Citadel every 50,000 years.  And does nothing else.

So basically we're just refueling the Reapers' space station for them.

Well, according to the 100% literalist perspective, the crucible IS a giant battery. Now what it's for that's up to speculation...

It is stated to be as much, though only by Starbinger.  But it kind of makes sense, since no-one can work out what it does but that it has huge amounts of energy within it leads me to believe that it doesn't really do anything on its own.

And yeah, ultimate troll move if all it does is refuel the Citadel.  Even moreso then a dud to drain enemy's resources.

[jgibson14352]

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

thats what this thread is about!!!!! we think that, through IT, by choosing control or synthesis you are mistakenly playing into the reapers hands. and indoctrination works by rewriting neural pathways through subsonic and ultrasonic frequencies, the reapers would be able to control how they influenced you by alternating signals and connecting and rewriting different pathways

I know darn well what you people are on about with IT. However there is a free choice for the player to make. I cannot believe for a second that Bioware would release a game, "indoctrinate" you as the player making you pick synthesis or control such that you allow the cycle to continue, and then not lord it over you in some way but instead dress it up as an actual resolution to a 3 part, 120 hour trilogy. The idea that IT is the actual solution is complete invention by people wanting a proper ending (which, is something we all should want) and creating a theory to make it come true.

If Bioware actually meant this ending as indoctrination, then they've pretty much rick roll'd all ME players in such a way that the vast majority will basically stop buying any and all Bioware games, myself included. There is no way for IT to be true and for this to work in Bioware's favor.

using your logic, every movie that has had a major plot twist in the end has done horrible at the box office, the sixth sense? rick roll. shutter island? got us good, scorsese, so i guess i dont want to buy any more of your movies.

we arent creating a theory, were piecing together the puzzle that we think bioware left for us. i honestly cant remember a time when i heard anybody but you say, not only, that they hope this was the last of the ME games (devs have flat out said its not, there will be more games in the ME universe), but that they would stop buying bioware products upon the advent of a better ending

[RampantAndroid]

jgibson14352 wrote...

Dr Chandana team WAS the cerberus team on that reaper. ill say it again, i know my ME univers. saying that, i do need to correct my last statement, Dr. Qian and the cerberus teams on cronos station also studied reapers.

Look, you missed my entire point. Chandana's team, the arrival team and all of them spent ages around the reaper tech. That is my point. Shep's time around reaper tech is limited to talking to soverign over holo-com thingy, time on the collector base (and we don't know that leads to indoctrination, given we don't see Kelly or Chakwas being indoctrinated), time talking to harbinger (again, not in person), on the derelict reaper (first time he was on a reaper), time spent fighting the human reaper (is this how the TIM was indoctrinated? We're never told HOW he became indoctrinated, or really, when) and finally time spent around the artifact during Arrival. Beyond that, he sees the spikes that make the husks, but not much else. The point I'm making is that Shep doesn't live on a reaper. Like a certain team of scientists.

Stop trying to twist what I say.

[Simon_Says]

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

thats what this thread is about!!!!! we think that, through IT, by choosing control or synthesis you are mistakenly playing into the reapers hands. and indoctrination works by rewriting neural pathways through subsonic and ultrasonic frequencies, the reapers would be able to control how they influenced you by alternating signals and connecting and rewriting different pathways

I know darn well what you people are on about with IT. However there is a free choice for the player to make. I cannot believe for a second that Bioware would release a game, "indoctrinate" you as the player making you pick synthesis or control such that you allow the cycle to continue, and then not lord it over you in some way but instead dress it up as an actual resolution to a 3 part, 120 hour trilogy. The idea that IT is the actual solution is complete invention by people wanting a proper ending (which, is something we all should want) and creating a theory to make it come true.

If Bioware actually meant this ending as indoctrination, then they've pretty much rick roll'd all ME players in such a way that the vast majority will basically stop buying any and all Bioware games, myself included. There is no way for IT to be true and for this to work in Bioware's favor.

If that's how you feel about IT then why are you even here?

[Rifneno]

RampantAndroid wrote...

I know darn well what you people are on about with IT. However there is a free choice for the player to make. I cannot believe for a second that Bioware would release a game, "indoctrinate" you as the player making you pick synthesis or control such that you allow the cycle to continue, and then not lord it over you in some way but instead dress it up as an actual resolution to a 3 part, 120 hour trilogy. The idea that IT is the actual solution is complete invention by people wanting a proper ending (which, is something we all should want) and creating a theory to make it come true.

If Bioware actually meant this ending as indoctrination, then they've pretty much rick roll'd all ME players in such a way that the vast majority will basically stop buying any and all Bioware games, myself included. There is no way for IT to be true and for this to work in Bioware's favor.

It can't be true because the plot twist wasn't immediately revealed.  Isn't it incredible what literalists call logic?

[jgibson14352]

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

Dr Chandana team WAS the cerberus team on that reaper. ill say it again, i know my ME univers. saying that, i do need to correct my last statement, Dr. Qian and the cerberus teams on cronos station also studied reapers.

Look, you missed my entire point. Chandana's team, the arrival team and all of them spent ages around the reaper tech. That is my point. Shep's time around reaper tech is limited to talking to soverign over holo-com thingy, time on the collector base (and we don't know that leads to indoctrination, given we don't see Kelly or Chakwas being indoctrinated), time talking to harbinger (again, not in person), on the derelict reaper (first time he was on a reaper), time spent fighting the human reaper (is this how the TIM was indoctrinated? We're never told HOW he became indoctrinated, or really, when) and finally time spent around the artifact during Arrival. Beyond that, he sees the spikes that make the husks, but not much else. The point I'm making is that Shep doesn't live on a reaper. Like a certain team of scientists.

Stop trying to twist what I say.

the best part about this is im not twisting what you say at all, youre contradicting yourself quite nicely.
also, youre wrong again for about the fourth or fifth time. in the ME Evolution comics, we can see how the illusive man (jack harper) gets his eyes, he has indirect contanct with a reaper artifact, and can suddenly understand several dialects, along with his blue ringed eyes. note: same eyes as saren, and shepard if he chooses synthesis or control.
and no, im doing the opposite of missing your point, unless you have yet to state it. shepard has spent uncounted time around uncounted reaper objects, the same objects that have indoctrinated other people. shepard is just a person, he isnt anymore immune to indoctrination than anyone else. the cerberus scientist didnt live on the reaper either, they lived on their own ship that was docked to the reaper. they worked on it in shifts.

Modifié par jgibson14352, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:04 .

[CoolioThane]

We weren't shown how TIM was indoctrinated? If you read the comics, mate...

Just go away if you're going to continue to troll us. We've found the clues and just because you're too ignorant to acknowledge them doesn't mean we should take the uneducated drivel you spout

[RampantAndroid]

jgibson14352 wrote...

using your logic, every movie that has had a major plot twist in the end has done horrible at the box office, the sixth sense? rick roll. shutter island? got us good, scorsese, so i guess i dont want to buy any more of your movies.

we arent creating a theory, were piecing together the puzzle that we think bioware left for us. i honestly cant remember a time when i heard anybody but you say, not only, that they hope this was the last of the ME games (devs have flat out said its not, there will be more games in the ME universe), but that they would stop buying bioware products upon the advent of a better ending

First off, those movies actually SHOW YOU the twist.

Sixth sense: he suddenly realizes why his wife locks the door to his office area, why she "ignores" him and why the only person to truly talk to him is the kid. His death replays in his head, and you see he died when he was shot. He says goodbye to his wife, movie done. The viewer knows that the entire movie was in fact built on that from the beginning. Also see Unbreakable. Again, you are told the twist.

Shutter Island tells you point blank "it was a setup, you're crazy in the head" and explains it. Also, because of this ending making everything leading up to it invalid, I call Shutter Island about the best build up to a terrible ending I've seen in years. Right next to Chinatown. I didn't like Scorsese to begin with, but Shutter Island pulled me in. And then the lighthouse, and I walked out of the theater. I AM done with his movies.

Inception: ends with the spinning top, having already explained the purpose of the top, without showing whether it keeps spinning, or just falls to the table. It calls out the open ended question of "is he really back in the real world?"

Indoctrination is NOT a better ending, it's a big screw you ending, given Bioware has said this IS the ending set we get. No more. So what we have now, that's it. So again, if IT is true, what you're telling me is that Bioware left a "puzzle" in there (remember, after they had such a bad ending set to begin with that they spent months making free DLC) for us to "solve" that once solved....oh, leaves ME3 with no proper ending. Less closure than just accepting the existing endings as they are. There will be no more DLC endings. There will be no more "closure." If you accept IT, you accept that the end of the game is just a joke on the player.

[Andromidius]

I hear new ideas and innovative concepts are bad.

Its why some people dislike IT. New things scare them.

[BansheeOwnage]

jgibson14352 wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

Dr Chandana team WAS the cerberus team on that reaper. ill say it again, i know my ME univers. saying that, i do need to correct my last statement, Dr. Qian and the cerberus teams on cronos station also studied reapers.

Look, you missed my entire point. Chandana's team, the arrival team and all of them spent ages around the reaper tech. That is my point. Shep's time around reaper tech is limited to talking to soverign over holo-com thingy, time on the collector base (and we don't know that leads to indoctrination, given we don't see Kelly or Chakwas being indoctrinated), time talking to harbinger (again, not in person), on the derelict reaper (first time he was on a reaper), time spent fighting the human reaper (is this how the TIM was indoctrinated? We're never told HOW he became indoctrinated, or really, when) and finally time spent around the artifact during Arrival. Beyond that, he sees the spikes that make the husks, but not much else. The point I'm making is that Shep doesn't live on a reaper. Like a certain team of scientists.

Stop trying to twist what I say.

the best part about this is im not twisting what you say at all, youre contradicting yourself quite nicely.
also, youre wrong again for about the fourth or fifth time. in the ME Evolution comics, we can see how the illusive man (jack harper) gets his eyes, he has indirect contanct with a reaper artifact, and can suddenly understand several dialects, along with his blue ringed eyes. note: same eyes as saren, and shepard if he chooses synthesis or control.
and no, im doing the opposite of missing your point, unless you have yet to state it. shepard has spent uncounted time around uncounted reaper objects, the same objects that have indoctrinated other people. shepard is just a person, he isnt anymore immune to indoctrination than anyone else. the cerberus scientist didnt live on the reaper either, they lived on their own ship that was docked to the reaper. they worked on it in shifts.

Just thought I'd to emphasize this. The ME series did a great job in making Shepard a normal person that is as good with words as she is with a gun. Shepard is not "The One" or anything else like that. It might work in other serials but not Mass Effect, a serial ground in reality. In a literal sense the only reason Shepard would not be indoctrinated is indoc-plot-armour. Which is totally, totally lame.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:08 .

[RampantAndroid]

CoolioThane wrote...

We weren't shown how TIM was indoctrinated? If you read the comics, mate...

Just go away if you're going to continue to troll us. We've found the clues and just because you're too ignorant to acknowledge them doesn't mean we should take the uneducated drivel you spout

A quick look online, having read no comics, confirms what I just said. He collected reaper tech (including the dead reaper) and slowly became indoctrinated. Yup, exactly as I thought.

Sorry I came in here to question your "I refuse to accept this ending so I'll invent a new one!" line of thinking....

[CoolioThane]

RampantAndroid wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

using your logic, every movie that has had a major plot twist in the end has done horrible at the box office, the sixth sense? rick roll. shutter island? got us good, scorsese, so i guess i dont want to buy any more of your movies.

we arent creating a theory, were piecing together the puzzle that we think bioware left for us. i honestly cant remember a time when i heard anybody but you say, not only, that they hope this was the last of the ME games (devs have flat out said its not, there will be more games in the ME universe), but that they would stop buying bioware products upon the advent of a better ending

First off, those movies actually SHOW YOU the twist.

Sixth sense: he suddenly realizes why his wife locks the door to his office area, why she "ignores" him and why the only person to truly talk to him is the kid. His death replays in his head, and you see he died when he was shot. He says goodbye to his wife, movie done. The viewer knows that the entire movie was in fact built on that from the beginning. Also see Unbreakable. Again, you are told the twist.

Shutter Island tells you point blank "it was a setup, you're crazy in the head" and explains it. Also, because of this ending making everything leading up to it invalid, I call Shutter Island about the best build up to a terrible ending I've seen in years. Right next to Chinatown. I didn't like Scorsese to begin with, but Shutter Island pulled me in. And then the lighthouse, and I walked out of the theater. I AM done with his movies.

Inception: ends with the spinning top, having already explained the purpose of the top, without showing whether it keeps spinning, or just falls to the table. It calls out the open ended question of "is he really back in the real world?"

Indoctrination is NOT a better ending, it's a big screw you ending, given Bioware has said this IS the ending set we get. No more. So what we have now, that's it. So again, if IT is true, what you're telling me is that Bioware left a "puzzle" in there (remember, after they had such a bad ending set to begin with that they spent months making free DLC) for us to "solve" that once solved....oh, leaves ME3 with no proper ending. Less closure than just accepting the existing endings as they are. There will be no more DLC endings. There will be no more "closure." If you accept IT, you accept that the end of the game is just a joke on the player.

THEY WILL RELEASE THE TRUE ENDING AT A LATER DATE! ARE YOU THICK?

[Simon_Says]

CoolioThane wrote...

We weren't shown how TIM was indoctrinated? If you read the comics, mate...

Just go away if you're going to continue to troll us. We've found the clues and just because you're too ignorant to acknowledge them doesn't mean we should take the uneducated drivel you spout

Well that's when he was initially indoctrinated. Throughout ME2 he's obviously an ethically dubious character but no friend or pawn of the reapers.

It's really when he brought the corpse of a proto-reaper and placed it right next to his office that he went off the deep end between ME2 and ME3.

[BansheeOwnage]

Throw the "Android-Machine" out the airlock!

[CoolioThane]

RampantAndroid wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

We weren't shown how TIM was indoctrinated? If you read the comics, mate...

Just go away if you're going to continue to troll us. We've found the clues and just because you're too ignorant to acknowledge them doesn't mean we should take the uneducated drivel you spout

A quick look online, having read no comics, confirms what I just said. He collected reaper tech (including the dead reaper) and slowly became indoctrinated. Yup, exactly as I thought.

Sorry I came in here to question your "I refuse to accept this ending so I'll invent a new one!" line of thinking....

And this is how Shepard is being indoctrinated...

Except we're not "inventing" one...we care for the lore and the history and have picked up on intentional clues left in the game...

You have already stated you don't care for the universe anymore, and your persistent ignorance and arrogance that you are correct is starting to ****** me off. I'd rather you leave now with your tail between your legs before you embarrass yourself futher, buddy.