55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromidius]

leonia42 wrote...

SubAstris wrote..

Yes, but that doesn't mean that what Epyon is saying shouldn't be there. For example, on Virmire, Saren knows that something is up, hence why he studies indoctrination, but he isn't fully indoctrinated at that point.

Shepard hasn't exactly had any free time to set up research facilities for self-examination but the player can see things Shepard cannot.

Shepard has a fair amount of self-doubt as well, including an existance crisis.  Symtoms seem to vary a bit depending on the person (the stronger the will, the longer they last), but the same general pattern occurs in nearly every instance.  Only two which seem slightly different are TIM (unclear why) and Shiala (due to Therion).

[Leonia]

Almost every squad-mate and a few other NPCs are constantly asking Shepard if she is ok, maybe they think its just stress but could also be an indicator that something is off.

Modifié par leonia42, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:14 .

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

I think what he is trying to say is that Shepard doesn't even consider anything but destroy to be an option right until the endings. If IT were true, you would expect some change from the start to the middle to the end in his feelings to the Reapers.

Hense process of indoctrination, not full indoctrination.  The idea to not destroy the Reapers is planted in Shepard's head by Starbinger, that's when the final stages of the indoctrination process are beginning - the moment where Shepard's mind is ready to be seized.

The fact Shepard goes from 'must destroy the Reapers' to 'hmm, maybe I shouldn't destroy them after all' based on a <5 minute conversation with an AI in league with the Reapers should be very telling in this regard.  The ground work to soften him/her up had already been done, otherwise Shepard won't have entertained the concept for even a moment.

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

SubAstris wrote..

Yes, but that doesn't mean that what Epyon is saying shouldn't be there. For example, on Virmire, Saren knows that something is up, hence why he studies indoctrination, but he isn't fully indoctrinated at that point.

Shepard hasn't exactly had any free time to set up research facilities for self-examination but the player can see things Shepard cannot.

Shepard has a fair amount of self-doubt as well, including an existance crisis.  Symtoms seem to vary a bit depending on the person (the stronger the will, the longer they last), but the same general pattern occurs in nearly every instance.  Only two which seem slightly different are TIM (unclear why) and Shiala (due to Therion).

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

[MaximizedAction]

leonia42 wrote...

Almost every squad-mate and a few other NPCs are constantly asking Shepard if she is ok, maybe they think its just stress but could also be an indicator that something is off.

...to the extend where I keep asking myself if they know that Shep's no fine. If it were real people, I'd wonder what they were thinking when Shepard was telling them about the kid in Vancouver...how convenient that Anderson wasn't around when Shepard was telling that.

It's either some squadmates are being indoc. themselves or they feel that Shepard is.

Normandy isn't holy and neither is Shepard, so someone must be being indoc.

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I think what he is trying to say is that Shepard doesn't even consider anything but destroy to be an option right until the endings. If IT were true, you would expect some change from the start to the middle to the end in his feelings to the Reapers.

Hense process of indoctrination, not full indoctrination.  The idea to not destroy the Reapers is planted in Shepard's head by Starbinger, that's when the final stages of the indoctrination process are beginning - the moment where Shepard's mind is ready to be seized.

The fact Shepard goes from 'must destroy the Reapers' to 'hmm, maybe I shouldn't destroy them after all' based on a <5 minute conversation with an AI in league with the Reapers should be very telling in this regard.  The ground work to soften him/her up had already been done, otherwise Shepard won't have entertained the concept for even a moment.

I realise it's a process but we should see the effects of said process which we don't see in this respect, which comes off as very unusal as a gradual process. To have all shoved into the last five minutes isn't really what indoctrination is about  esp. when compared with other indoctrination characters e.g. Saren

[DoomsdayDevice]

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as
in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

At some point, Shepard can ask Hackett:  "What if the Illusive Man is right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?" Clearly Shepard is already doubting at that point.

And once again, Hackett has to remind Shepard that the idea is foolish. (More people point this out to Shepard throughout the game, but this is a moment where Shep clearly has doubts.)

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[Leonia]

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

The whole "Maybe I'm just a VI programmed to think it's Shepard" line is definitely evidence of self-doubt but it comes late in the story. Shepard also expresses her doubtfulness that the war can be won several times though the one that sticks out to me is during the romance conversation with Garrus where she says it's all hanging by a thread. But that's all "optional" dialogue so some of it could be easily skipped.


The danger in comparing Shepard and Saren is that their circumstances aren't the same and Shepard clearly has stronger will based on her ability to access the beacon without Sovereign's help on Eden Prime (and other such beacons later on). The effects of indoctriantion, if they are indeed there at all, would be far more subtle and less obvious to someone who is not looking for them.

Modifié par leonia42, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[Humakt83]

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

Cerberus base and the aftermath. When Shepard hears how impossible his resurrection was, he doubted whether he really was Shepard or just some high-tech VI which believes it is Commander Shepard.

In conversation with Hackett he wonders whether Illusive Man was right, that Reapers could be controlled.

Besides Saren did not doubt whether he was in control of his mind....

Modifié par Humakt83, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[SubAstris]

leonia42 wrote...

Almost every squad-mate and a few other NPCs are constantly asking Shepard if she is ok, maybe they think its just stress but could also be an indicator that something is off.

That's understandable given the scenario of a massive war going on. What would be interesting, and perhaps evidence for IT, is evidence of squadmates really questioning Shepard, "You seem...different"

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

I just told you.  If you want to ignore what I said, that's your choice.

[SubAstris]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as
in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

At some point, Shepard can ask Hackett:  "What if the Illusive Man is right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?" Clearly Shepard is already doubting at that point.

And once again, Hackett has to remind Shepard that the idea is foolish. (More people point this out to Shepard throughout the game, but this is a moment where Shep clearly has doubts.)

When? That must be slipped by me.

[SubAstris]

Humakt83 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

Cerberus base and the aftermath. When Shepard hears how impossible his resurrection was, he doubted whether he really was Shepard or just some high-tech VI which believes it is Commander Shepard.

In conversation with Hackett he wonders whether Illusive Man was right, that Reapers could be controlled.

Besides Saren did not doubt whether he was in control of his mind....

That's a slightly different issue than indoctrination.

Is this a dialogye option you can choose or not?

[Leonia]

SubAstris wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Almost every squad-mate and a few other NPCs are constantly asking Shepard if she is ok, maybe they think its just stress but could also be an indicator that something is off.

That's understandable given the scenario of a massive war going on. What would be interesting, and perhaps evidence for IT, is evidence of squadmates really questioning Shepard, "You seem...different"

Benezia couldn't pinpoint when Saren became indoctrinated until it was too late for anything to be done about it.

[DoomsdayDevice]

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as
in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

At
some point, Shepard can ask Hackett:  "What if the Illusive Man is
right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?" Clearly Shepard is
already doubting at that point.

And once again, Hackett has to
remind Shepard that the idea is foolish. (More people point this out to
Shepard throughout the game, but this is a moment where Shep clearly has
doubts.)

When? That must be slipped by me.

It's one of the conversations you have with Hackett through hologram. I think it's the conversation where you can also ask Hackett "Why pick me?"

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[SubAstris]

leonia42 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

The whole "Maybe I'm just a VI programmed to think it's Shepard" line is definitely evidence of self-doubt but it comes late in the story. Shepard also expresses her doubtfulness that the war can be won several times though the one that sticks out to me is during the romance conversation with Garrus where she says it's all hanging by a thread. But that's all "optional" dialogue so some of it could be easily skipped.


The danger in comparing Shepard and Saren is that their circumstances aren't the same and Shepard clearly has stronger will based on her ability to access the beacon without Sovereign's help on Eden Prime (and other such beacons later on). The effects of indoctriantion, if they are indeed there at all, would be far more subtle and less obvious to someone who is not looking for them.

Your last point is true, but effects need to be flagged up for the play to see

[MaximizedAction]

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as
in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

At some point, Shepard can ask Hackett:  "What if the Illusive Man is right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?" Clearly Shepard is already doubting at that point.

And once again, Hackett has to remind Shepard that the idea is foolish. (More people point this out to Shepard throughout the game, but this is a moment where Shep clearly has doubts.)

When? That must be slipped by me.

The last dialog with Hackett before the assault on Cronos station. Play around with the dialogs.

[SubAstris]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as
in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

At
some point, Shepard can ask Hackett:  "What if the Illusive Man is
right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?" Clearly Shepard is
already doubting at that point.

And once again, Hackett has to
remind Shepard that the idea is foolish. (More people point this out to
Shepard throughout the game, but this is a moment where Shep clearly has
doubts.)

When? That must be slipped by me.

It's one of the conversations you have with Hackett through hologram. I think it's the conversation where you can also ask Hackett "Why pick me?"

That seems to me less convincing that dialogue that everyone has

[Leonia]

Hey I'm not even a supporter of the theory so my defense isn't going to be the greatest around here, but if you keep your eyes open things do start to stick out.

[SubAstris]

leonia42 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Almost every squad-mate and a few other NPCs are constantly asking Shepard if she is ok, maybe they think its just stress but could also be an indicator that something is off.

That's understandable given the scenario of a massive war going on. What would be interesting, and perhaps evidence for IT, is evidence of squadmates really questioning Shepard, "You seem...different"

Benezia couldn't pinpoint when Saren became indoctrinated until it was too late for anything to be done about it.

Yes but she could tell if something was different about him presumably. which is what NPCs should have done in-game

[ThisOneIsPunny]

leonia42 wrote...

Hey I'm not even a supporter of the theory so my defense isn't going to be the greatest around here, but if you keep your eyes open things do start to stick out.

I'd say they don a skirt dress GRASS SKIRT(good god not enough coffee this morning) and start to hula infront of you....

Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating that a lot, but some of the evidence really does blatantly stick out and dance in your face.

Modifié par ThisOneIsPunny, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:38 .

[CoolioThane]

Why are here SubAstris? Are you trying to tell us we are all wrong?

I don't understand why people, like you, who don't like the endings are adamantly trying to dissuade us from, and thus disprove, the IT...

...are you happy being a pessimist? I just find it hard to believe people who are unhappy are not willing to become happier...

[EpyonX3]

Schachmatt wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree. Indoctrinated individuals know something is up but are in denial of that change. Not only that but their actions are radically different. If Shepard is in the process, he'd be less willing to destroy the reapers throughout the game and more willing to allow the cycle to continue. This isn't something that can happen in the last ten minutes of the game. This would be rapid indoctrination which would kill Shepard anyway.

Shepard's indoctrination according to IT is very different to what we know about indoctrination.

Interesting you brought that up, that's exactly what I assumed in certain discussions on other boards, that people who denied IT with really weird arguments and/or rejected the whole idea with noticeble irrationality, are in some form of denial. As if they were knowing that there is something going on ... but can't stand the thought that Shepard could somehow be indoctrinated or is undergoing it - and outright rejected the idea.

However I have to disagree to the rest of your post. According to IT, Shepard is not indoctrinated but is undergoing indoctrination.

Besides Shepard having three dreams over the course of I believe six months of time, there's no real change in his behavior. They even corrected Shepard's inability to question the Catalyst by adding dialog in EC.

[Schachmatt123]

SubAstris wrote...

Yes but she could tell if something was different about him presumably. which is what NPCs should have done in-game

And they did. E.g., after the Thessia Mission it is Joker who clearly noticed it. In addition he said that Anderson asked him to keep an eye on Shepard.

Modifié par Schachmatt, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree. Indoctrinated individuals know something is up but are in denial of that change. Not only that but their actions are radically different. If Shepard is in the process, he'd be less willing to destroy the reapers throughout the game and more willing to allow the cycle to continue. This isn't something that can happen in the last ten minutes of the game. This would be rapid indoctrination which would kill Shepard anyway.

Shepard's indoctrination according to IT is very different to what we know about indoctrination.

Interesting you brought that up, that's exactly what I assumed in certain discussions on other boards, that people who denied IT with really weird arguments and/or rejected the whole idea with noticeble irrationality, are in some form of denial. As if they were knowing that there is something going on ... but can't stand the thought that Shepard could somehow be indoctrinated or is undergoing it - and outright rejected the idea.

However I have to disagree to the rest of your post. According to IT, Shepard is not indoctrinated but is undergoing indoctrination.

Besides Shepard having three dreams over the course of I believe six months of time, there's no real change in his behavior. They even corrected Shepard's inability to question the Catalyst by adding dialog in EC.

I don't know about that. Going from Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 3, it kind of seems like the paragon routes in dialogue really play up how badly everything's affecting Shepard whereas they didn't before. Or at least not to such an obvious point.  The dialogue with Liara after LOTSB, where she asks you how you feel or whatever "and not just what you say to keep morale up" and the paragon route there is a confident answer despite all the crap Shepard's had to deal with as opposed to the renegade option to speak honestly(and angrily). There are similar conversations like this with Liara in Mass Effect 3 where those two routes flip. Suddenly it's the renegade routes where you're withholding how Shepard really feels.

That's just my interpretation though.