55528 réponses à ce sujet

[EpyonX3]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree. Indoctrinated individuals know something is up but are in denial of that change. Not only that but their actions are radically different. If Shepard is in the process, he'd be less willing to destroy the reapers throughout the game and more willing to allow the cycle to continue. This isn't something that can happen in the last ten minutes of the game. This would be rapid indoctrination which would kill Shepard anyway.

Shepard's indoctrination according to IT is very different to what we know about indoctrination.

Interesting you brought that up, that's exactly what I assumed in certain discussions on other boards, that people who denied IT with really weird arguments and/or rejected the whole idea with noticeble irrationality, are in some form of denial. As if they were knowing that there is something going on ... but can't stand the thought that Shepard could somehow be indoctrinated or is undergoing it - and outright rejected the idea.

However I have to disagree to the rest of your post. According to IT, Shepard is not indoctrinated but is undergoing indoctrination.

Besides Shepard having three dreams over the course of I believe six months of time, there's no real change in his behavior. They even corrected Shepard's inability to question the Catalyst by adding dialog in EC.

I don't know about that. Going from Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 3, it kind of seems like the paragon routes in dialogue really play up how badly everything's affecting Shepard whereas they didn't before. Or at least not to such an obvious point.  The dialogue with Liara after LOTSB, where she asks you how you feel or whatever "and not just what you say to keep morale up" and the paragon route there is a confident answer despite all the crap Shepard's had to deal with as opposed to the renegade option to speak honestly(and angrily). There are similar conversations like this with Liara in Mass Effect 3 where those two routes flip. Suddenly it's the renegade routes where you're withholding how Shepard really feels.

That's just my interpretation though.

There's a difference between the events in ME2 and ME3. Earth is attacked and human populations are shrinking fast because of a reaper invasion. ME2 was a few colonies going missing and you end up stopping it, which is a confidence booster.

Seeing your homeworld on fire on the other hand and seeing other worlds going down just the same kind of kicks the wind from your sails. But it doesn't stop Shepard from finding a way to stop the reapers. He never once suggests joining them or allowing the cycle to continue for the greater good.

[EpyonX3]

Schachmatt wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Yes but she could tell if something was different about him presumably. which is what NPCs should have done in-game

And they did. E.g., after the Thessia Mission it is Joker who clearly noticed it. In addition he said that Anderson asked him to keep an eye on Shepard.

This was due to stress levels based on suit readings and conversations with Anderson. Shepard was bothered by the defeat on Thessia. Joker, in his usual fashion tried to cheer him with his humor. If they sensed indoctrination, Joker wouldn't have told him a joke and would have grilled him with questions instead. As a friend.

[Iconoclaste]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Yes but she could tell if something was different about him presumably. which is what NPCs should have done in-game

And they did. E.g., after the Thessia Mission it is Joker who clearly noticed it. In addition he said that Anderson asked him to keep an eye on Shepard.

This was due to stress levels based on suit readings and conversations with Anderson. Shepard was bothered by the defeat on Thessia. Joker, in his usual fashion tried to cheer him with his humor. If they sensed indoctrination, Joker wouldn't have told him a joke and would have grilled him with questions instead. As a friend.

I would add that if Anderson or anyone in command suspected Shepard of being affected by indoctrination, he / she would not have been let free to pursue such a delicate task as to unify the galactic forces. Since indoctrinated politicians are among those who can bring down entire nations by misleading the people, Shepard's role in this particular set of events was under constant scrutiny from many, he surely would not be have been able to perform "pro-Reaper tricks" unnoticed.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:30 .

[niravital]

What about the new memorial scene at the end of EC DLC?

In both control and synthesis, Shepard's LI puts his name on the wall, but in the destroy ending, LI holds on to it and looks up as refusing to believe Shepard is dead.

If the IT isn't true, it doesn't make sense. How do they know at this point that Shepard is dead? in these two options, the Reapers stop their attack, there is no further destruction. In destroy option, stuff blows up (at least Reaper creatures do). The Normandy acts the same in all of the three options, why in only one of them does the LI seem to believe Shepard is alive, and in the other two they think he's dead?

Because WE know it?
I would imagine for the LI to hold on the hope that Shepard might survive in all of the endings.

The squad never know what happened up on the Citadel.
We have a different reaction from the LI because WE, as players, know that Shepard is still alive so Bioware would put this in to make us happy ("oh, the LI also thinks that I'm alive, we'll reunite and live happily ever after!"). But from an in-game point of view, and if we didn't know what the original ending before EC were like, it doesn't make sense in my opinion.

If the IT is true - then it makes perfect sense. ALSO, this is the last thing Shepard is "imagining" before the end credits - this is where he's at peace with his fate. He either acknowledges that he is dead (LI put his name on the wall), the game end - credits roll. Or, he seem to believe, through imagining his LI, that he is still alive, then we see the breath scene - he wakes up.

Modifié par niravital, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[Iconoclaste]

Synthesis makes Shepard a "part of everything", and control obviously makes him part of the "Reaper system". In both cases, most of his "intimate accointances" could have learned easily what has become of him. In destroy, he's just gone "missing", hence a little hope somewhere...

[MaximizedAction]

niravital wrote...

What about the new memorial scene at the end of EC DLC?

In both control and synthesis, Shepard's LI puts his name on the wall, but in the destroy ending, LI holds on to it and looks up as refusing to believe Shepard is dead.

If the IT isn't true, it doesn't make sense. How do they know at this point that Shepard is dead? in these two options, the Reapers stop their attack, there is no further destruction. In destroy option, stuff blows up (at least Reaper creatures do). The Normandy acts the same in all of the three options, why in only one of them does the LI seem to believe Shepard is alive, and in the other two they think he's dead?

Because WE know it?
I would imagine for the LI to hold on the hope that Shepard might survive in all of the endings.

The squad never know what happened up on the Citadel.
We have a different reaction from the LI because WE, as players, know that Shepard is still alive so Bioware would put this in to make us happy ("oh, the LI also thinks that I'm alive, we'll reunite and live happily ever after!"). But from an in-game point of view, and if we didn't know what the original ending before EC were like, it doesn't make sense in my opinion.

If the IT is true - then it makes perfect sense. ALSO, this is the last thing Shepard is "imagining" before the end credits - this is where he's at peace with his fate. He either acknowledges that he is dead (LI put his name on the wall), the game end - credits roll. Or, he seem to believe, through imagining his LI, that he is still alive, then we see the breath scene - he wakes up.

Yep, this! Even Mike Gamble pointed through one tweet to look for the different memorial scenes.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:37 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

EpyonX3 wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...



Besides Shepard having three dreams over the course of I believe six months of time, there's no real change in his behavior. They even corrected Shepard's inability to question the Catalyst by adding dialog in EC.

I don't know about that. Going from Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 3, it kind of seems like the paragon routes in dialogue really play up how badly everything's affecting Shepard whereas they didn't before. Or at least not to such an obvious point.  The dialogue with Liara after LOTSB, where she asks you how you feel or whatever "and not just what you say to keep morale up" and the paragon route there is a confident answer despite all the crap Shepard's had to deal with as opposed to the renegade option to speak honestly(and angrily). There are similar conversations like this with Liara in Mass Effect 3 where those two routes flip. Suddenly it's the renegade routes where you're withholding how Shepard really feels.

That's just my interpretation though.

There's a difference between the events in ME2 and ME3. Earth is attacked and human populations are shrinking fast because of a reaper invasion. ME2 was a few colonies going missing and you end up stopping it, which is a confidence booster.

Seeing your homeworld on fire on the other hand and seeing other worlds going down just the same kind of kicks the wind from your sails. But it doesn't stop Shepard from finding a way to stop the reapers. He never once suggests joining them or allowing the cycle to continue for the greater good.

That could also be true. If I view it that way though, I don't necessarily see it as Shepard reacting to the vast difference in loss but more the responsibility of defeating the reapers and how everyone, not just humanity, is now placing that responsibility on his/her shoulders. And yeah, I agree with that last part. Of course for me, control and synthesis are the exception to that but that's not what I initially wanted to analyze the butts out of. 

[Lokanaiya]

@iconoclaste
Doesn't the memorial scene happen before they leave Random Jungle Planet? How would they know what happened to Shepard while being stranded somewhere with no outside contact?

[niravital]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Synthesis makes Shepard a "part of everything", and control obviously makes him part of the "Reaper system". In both cases, most of his "intimate accointances" could have learned easily what has become of him. In destroy, he's just gone "missing", hence a little hope somewhere...

But they are still on the forest planet, the same exact situation, in all endings.

How does anyone know if Shepard is still on the Citadel alive or dead if they haven't even checked?

The epilogue nor dialogue shows us anything new about them figuring out Shep's fate. Furthermore, in the final memorial scene Hackett is saying that they will honor those who gave their life, implying to us Shepard is dead. And this is the joined galactic forces admiral speaking.
In synthesis, EDI says they will remember Shepard, but it still doesn't explain how does she know he is dead, it's just something that WE know.

[DoomsdayDevice]

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Where exactly are the examples of Shepard doubting that the Reapers should not be stopped or destroyed, as
in line with indoctrination, or doubting whether he indeed has in control of his own mind a la Saren?

At
some point, Shepard can ask Hackett:  "What if the Illusive Man is
right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?" Clearly Shepard is
already doubting at that point.

And once again, Hackett has to
remind Shepard that the idea is foolish. (More people point this out to
Shepard throughout the game, but this is a moment where Shep clearly has
doubts.)

When? That must be slipped by me.

It's one of the conversations you have with Hackett through hologram. I think it's the conversation where you can also ask Hackett "Why pick me?"

That seems to me less convincing that dialogue that everyone has

Um, almost every piece of dialogue in the Mass Effect games is optional, except for the bits that are auto-dialogue. Every player has the ability to ask this particular question.

You're asking for an example of Shep having doubts about destroying the Reapers, I provide one, and then you want to discount it because it's not auto-dialogue?

Come on man, be honest. That is a convincing example.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:06 .

[CoolioThane]

It seems literalists are still trying to convince us we're wrong on a thread that believers of the IT made to discuss the IT. If you don't agree then go elsewhere, please.

[Big_Boss9]

Lokanaiya wrote...

@iconoclaste
Doesn't the memorial scene happen before they leave Random Jungle Planet? How would they know what happened to Shepard while being stranded somewhere with no outside contact?

The Normandy has a QEC.

[Lokanaiya]

@Big_Boss9
And how would those on Earth know whether or not Shepard died? Especially since the breath scene is AFTER the memorial scene.

[Billyg3453]

Hello ITers! I have two questions that I am genuinely curious about in regards to those who still believe that the ending did not actually happen.

1) According to IT, is extended cut just an extension of the hallucination in Shepard's head on the streets of London?
2) Do you think there will be a second ending DLC that shows Shep waking up, winning war, etc.?

Just trying to gauge the general opinion of the thread

[DoomsdayDevice]

Billyg3453 wrote...

Hello ITers! I have two questions that I am genuinely curious about in regards to those who still believe that the ending did not actually happen.

1) According to IT, is extended cut just an extension of the hallucination in Shepard's head on the streets of London?

Yes.

Billyg3453 wrote...

2) Do you think there will be a second ending DLC that shows Shep waking up, winning war, etc.?

Just trying to gauge the general opinion of the thread

I personally don't think so. In my opinion it's pretty much clear now that they intend to forever leave it ambiguous.

[EpyonX3]

niravital wrote...

What about the new memorial scene at the end of EC DLC?

In both control and synthesis, Shepard's LI puts his name on the wall, but in the destroy ending, LI holds on to it and looks up as refusing to believe Shepard is dead.

If the IT isn't true, it doesn't make sense. How do they know at this point that Shepard is dead? in these two options, the Reapers stop their attack, there is no further destruction. In destroy option, stuff blows up (at least Reaper creatures do). The Normandy acts the same in all of the three options, why in only one of them does the LI seem to believe Shepard is alive, and in the other two they think he's dead?

Because WE know it?
I would imagine for the LI to hold on the hope that Shepard might survive in all of the endings.

The squad never know what happened up on the Citadel.
We have a different reaction from the LI because WE, as players, know that Shepard is still alive so Bioware would put this in to make us happy ("oh, the LI also thinks that I'm alive, we'll reunite and live happily ever after!"). But from an in-game point of view, and if we didn't know what the original ending before EC were like, it doesn't make sense in my opinion.

If the IT is true - then it makes perfect sense. ALSO, this is the last thing Shepard is "imagining" before the end credits - this is where he's at peace with his fate. He either acknowledges that he is dead (LI put his name on the wall), the game end - credits roll. Or, he seem to believe, through imagining his LI, that he is still alive, then we see the breath scene - he wakes up.

LI knows Shepard is dead because they find his body among the Citadel Wreckage and the crew is informed.
In the High EMS ending, Shepard, at that moment, is pronounced missing, giving hope that he could still be alive somewhere in some form.


EDIT: My opinion not saying this is true. Just one possibility.

Modifié par EpyonX3, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:17 .

[Andromidius]

Billyg3453 wrote...

Hello ITers! I have two questions that I am genuinely curious about in regards to those who still believe that the ending did not actually happen.

1) According to IT, is extended cut just an extension of the hallucination in Shepard's head on the streets of London?
2) Do you think there will be a second ending DLC that shows Shep waking up, winning war, etc.?

Just trying to gauge the general opinion of the thread

1/ In a manner of speaking.  The EC changes no-one's opinion either for or against IT.  Its clearly an extension of the story Bioware wanted to tell - so you can take it either way.  Personally, I found it added to the surreal dreamlike state of the final half hour of the game, which is a plus for IT.  And the fact certain scenes, plot details, plotholes, inconsistancies and general themes were left untouched tells me that they were there originally as intended.

2/ Hopefully.  But time will tell.  Its entirely possible Bioware want to leave it open ended indefinately - which would suck, but hey.

[niravital]

SHARXTREME wrote...

niravital wrote...

 So I keep thinking about the logic of the decisions and how it goes along with the IT.And I was wondering a lot about refusal, because in my opinion this is the pure indoctrination rejection, though we see Shepard and everyone else dying and he never wakes up.
But, and maybe it's forcing IT too much - Refusal ending really tells us that the catalyst's goal is to convince Shepard himself - it is personal and aimed at Shepard alone.

And in the last  TIM scene (renegade options):
Shepard says(something like this): - "So, what are you wasting time talking to us? Let us help you"
And TIM says: - "I need you to understand"   

That  would be consistent with IT, if Bioware ever decides to extend the ending again.

Nice find, wasn't aware of that.

Thanks

[EpyonX3]

CoolioThane wrote...

It seems literalists are still trying to convince us we're wrong on a thread that believers of the IT made to discuss the IT. If you don't agree then go elsewhere, please.

I don't believe in IT but what you're suggesting is a terrible idea. Literist vs ITer debates can actually strengthen the thoery buy plugging holes that ITers would otherwise miss. You should be glad that there are those willing to debate from an opposing side.

Modifié par EpyonX3, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:20 .

[Lokanaiya]

Epyon, the only ending where Shepard even has a body after choosing is Destroy. And that red explosion is probably big enough to change that very quickly.

[Big_Boss9]

Lokanaiya wrote...

@Big_Boss9
And how would those on Earth know whether or not Shepard died? Especially since the breath scene is AFTER the memorial scene.

It's plausible that it was simply aired contextually out of order. It's also in Bioware's best interest to keep it tacked on at the end to fuel the speculation. If they had taken it out (or aired it in a more proper order, as it were, with a literal viewpoint), that would've taken some (certainly not all) of the wind out of the IT sails. Ultimately, I think this is about Bioware putting themselves in a position where they can do whatever they want in ME4 (or whatever the next iteration is called). They can say Shep is alive, dead, indoctrinated, etc because it's all unclear. Was that a smart move? Time will tell.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[niravital]

EpyonX3 wrote...

LI knows Shepard is dead because they find his body among the Citadel Wreckage and the crew is informed.
In the High EMS ending, Shepard, at that moment, is pronounced missing, giving hope that he could still be alive somewhere in some form.


EDIT: My opinion not saying this is true. Just one possibility.

Yes, but...
In case the events of the ending are true events....
The problem is...
And check this out...


Ready?







THERE IS NO BODY OF SHEPARD LEFT!
He is absorbed into the crucible's energy.
Therefore, he cannot be pronounced dead, he can only be missing!


Well, unless, of course, he used to Reapes to leave a note to the other squad-mates
"guys, I'm dead, everything's fine, go ahead with your life".

[Lokanaiya]

That still doesn't explain how anyone else would know Shepard died. Control and Synthesis leave no body, and if they found Shepard in Destroy there wouldn't be any uncertainty as to whether or not he was dead.

[niravital]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Epyon, the only ending where Shepard even has a body after choosing is Destroy. And that red explosion is probably big enough to change that very quickly.

Damn, you beat me to it
I just realised it though, hence my over-excited response.
no offense intended Epyon

[CoolioThane]

EpyonX3 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

It seems literalists are still trying to convince us we're wrong on a thread that believers of the IT made to discuss the IT. If you don't agree then go elsewhere, please.

I don't believe in IT but what you're suggesting is a terrible idea. Literist vs ITer debates can actually strengthen the thoery buy plugging holes that ITers would otherwise miss. You should be glad that there are those willing to debate from an opposing side.

It's not the debating that's bad. It's the way some try to convince us we're wrong or that we're stupid "I told you so" threads and the like.

For the record, I'm not having a go at you or Sub for the debating, I'm pointing out (poorly, as I'm awul at words) that a lot of the stuff we are debating has been debated before and it becomes a bore (me, personally, especially having had mass debates (lol) on Facebook and stuff about it.)

I realise I might be coming across dismissive, I apologise, for I know you're a good person and just trying to understand. Plus I'm also really ****ing tired