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[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Interesting, but I disagree with your last part about Dr. Chandana.

He continues to say that a dead God can still dream. I'm pretty sure that the dead God he was referring to was the dead reaper they were in. Even though it was dead, it still indoctrinated them. What ever force that indoctrinates, believed to come from the core, it was still on. However, the AI was dead. That's why the doctors went crazy because they were indoctrinated by random reaper thoughts and no clear instruction.

The dead god could be the reaper. Or Chandana was refering that the body of the god was dead, yet the god itself was still very much alive. And it was dreaming.

PH'NGLUI MGLW'NAFH CTHULHU R'LYEH WGAH'NAGL FHTAGN! 

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:17 .

[niravital]

Simon_Says wrote...
Or it could just be a reflection of EMS. With enough preparation it becomes plausible to the LI and Normandy crew that Shepard survived another Suicide Mission. In lower EMS there are likely too many losses sustained in the battle to think that Shepard wasn't one of the casualties. As for synthesis and control, it's probably just that the reapers communicated what happened.

I'd actually start questioning why Shepard has 'visions' in low/mid EMS destroy. If Shepard broke through the indoctrination, why is the mid-range EMS destroy epilogue mournful yet ultimately hopeful? We thought pre-EC that the epilogue cutscenes in destroy were a final message to spite Shepard. EC debunked that much I think.

My own take is that all of the epilogues do not occur in-universe. Like the crawling text that opens each game, like Shep standing triumphantly before a blue/red background in the last shot of ME1, the ME3 epilogues are meant as narration to serve the player of how things stand in the ME universe. Remember, if Bioware intended/intends IT as canon, the point was to indoctrinate the player as well as Shepard.

Can't it be part of the dream? If IT is not true, then definitely the epilogue is not in-game, it's just... an epilogue.
but within the IT it could be part of the dream, the final part of it. It doesn't have to be Reaper generated at this point anymore, just what Shepard would imagine that will happen after his selection.

Isn't the mid-range EMS finish with placing Shep's name on the wall? I think this can be a representation of EMS too. Maybe Shepard thinks that he doesn't have enough power so he could survive, or maybe he really dies because they couldn't hold the Reapers back enough time for him to survive.
The low-EMS is pretty dark, but it has to be partially hopeful because Shepard has "more hope than he knows", no?


I still think that it'll be speculative of the squad in any case to guess if Shep is alive or not (except Synthesis), and if in high-EMS control they kept him and low-EMS control put his name on the wall then it would have made more sense.

[niravital]

Simon_Says wrote...
Actually, think about it. Indoctrination is about turning organic minds to align with those of the reapers, right? So basically, it causes the subjects to think like reapers. A reaper mind and a thoroughly indoctrinated one would be very, very similar, no?

And if the reapers are made by converting several million minds, probably based on organisms who didn't wish to be converted, then they have to figure a way to force all those minds to work together under the reaper's banner. In short, they have to be indoctrinated.

Basically, the reapers are indoctrinated. And like a virus epidemic, they parastically spread that indoctrination to reproduce. In a way, you could say then that the reapers are not the actual enemy. They're just another instrument of the real enemy. And that enemy is Indoctrination itself.

Can probably even link this idea with my Cosmic Imperative hypothesis. Indoctrination would be the galactic superorganism: the thinking system that sustains itself by harvesting lesser life.

This is beautiful 


Also, Sovereign is clearly indoctrinated in ME1 and completely unaware of someone controlling him ("We are each a nation... independent..." ppfff yeah tell that to the starkid)

[Simon_Says]

niravital wrote...

Also, Sovereign is clearly indoctrinated in ME1 and completely unaware of someone controlling him ("We are each a nation... independent..." ppfff yeah tell that to the starkid)

No one, and nothing, is free or independent from the way that they think.

[Eryri]

niravital wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
Actually, think about it. Indoctrination is about turning organic minds to align with those of the reapers, right? So basically, it causes the subjects to think like reapers. A reaper mind and a thoroughly indoctrinated one would be very, very similar, no?

And if the reapers are made by converting several million minds, probably based on organisms who didn't wish to be converted, then they have to figure a way to force all those minds to work together under the reaper's banner. In short, they have to be indoctrinated.

Basically, the reapers are indoctrinated. And like a virus epidemic, they parastically spread that indoctrination to reproduce. In a way, you could say then that the reapers are not the actual enemy. They're just another instrument of the real enemy. And that enemy is Indoctrination itself.

Can probably even link this idea with my Cosmic Imperative hypothesis. Indoctrination would be the galactic superorganism: the thinking system that sustains itself by harvesting lesser life.

This is beautiful 


Also, Sovereign is clearly indoctrinated in ME1 and completely unaware of someone controlling him ("We are each a nation... independent..." ppfff yeah tell that to the starkid)

I agree. When the Prothean VI on Thessia talked about some force "behind the pattern" I was kind of hoping it would be some incomprehensibly vast and mysterious entity manipulating events - a bit like the Cylon "God" in Battlestar.

Instead we got the stunningly mundane Star Kid A.I. with his glitchy programming. 

Modifié par Eryri, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:40 .

[Arian Dynas]

There's my own idea that the philosophies arose from the madness surrounding the creation of the first reaper, the idea that the formation of a gestalt mind of such massive intellect and breadth, encompassing the collective experience of an entire species, would crack under it's own weight, with the indoctrination signals being tools, originally designed for practical purposes, now were further twisted into a weapon of mental invasion.

The Reapers are on a crusade, they are a literal force of heartless, souless, compassionless crusaders, to whom we are lesser beings whom must be enlightened by the sword, milataristically spreading their "religion" to us, the infidel.

[Simon_Says]

Arian Dynas wrote...

There's my own idea that the philosophies arose from the madness surrounding the creation of the first reaper, the idea that the formation of a gestalt mind of such massive intellect and breadth, encompassing the collective experience of an entire species, would crack under it's own weight, with the indoctrination signals being tools, originally designed for practical purposes, now were further twisted into a weapon of mental invasion.

The Reapers are on a crusade, they are a literal force of heartless, souless, compassionless crusaders, to whom we are lesser beings whom must be enlightened by the sword, milataristically spreading their "religion" to us, the infidel.

So they fight because... "God wills it"?

[Seifer006]

dreamgazer wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

IT is debunked. Bioware made it clear in the EC that it wasn't their intentions.

It would have been nice if Bioware rolled with it. but it's over folks. Gotta move on.

http://social.biowar...916857#12919766 

There are elements of Mass Effect 3 that are meant to have non-literal interpretations. The hope is that these things provide thought-provoking discussion about the themes of the story and the motivations of characters. As such, we would prefer not to comment on players’ interpretations of these elements, since it would ruin the enjoyment of such discussion by suggesting there is a single, concrete way of viewing them.

No, that doesn't confirm IT, but it sure as hell doesn't debunk the ideas that the folks in this thread unearth.

interesting.....
from what I remember Bioware intention was not IT...
well, I remember Mike Gamble will answer EC questions at the Comic Con in LA, that's coming up shortly

sad thing is......the last Conferece in April - they said they'll answer EC questions......when they didn't. I want a flat out answer from them on IT. 

Becaue IMO - IT is much better ending then what is presented. It's to open ended with no Absolute Truth. Sometimes Absolutes are required or it's just pointless to discuss when you'll never know the answer especially to an ending of a 5yr Game Series.

thanks for the Link

[TSA_383]

BREAKING NEWS!

Professor at my university develops probably the best thing ever:
http://gizmodo.com/5...a-day-every-day

Also, how do you guys feel about the witcher 2? Since no more ME3 DLC will be out for a while I'm looking for another epic game to get stuck into whilst the weather's crap here...

[/offtopic]

Could it be possible that the crucible wasn't designed to use the catalyst as a component in the traditional sense, but rather as a weapon to destroy it?

(presuming the catalyst is a reaper AI, not sure where we go on that one...)

[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

There's my own idea that the philosophies arose from the madness surrounding the creation of the first reaper, the idea that the formation of a gestalt mind of such massive intellect and breadth, encompassing the collective experience of an entire species, would crack under it's own weight, with the indoctrination signals being tools, originally designed for practical purposes, now were further twisted into a weapon of mental invasion.

The Reapers are on a crusade, they are a literal force of heartless, souless, compassionless crusaders, to whom we are lesser beings whom must be enlightened by the sword, milataristically spreading their "religion" to us, the infidel.

So they fight because... "God wills it"?

You said it yourself.

They fight because the universe demands it to be so, they believe themselves the personification of the universal imperative. Divine right, universal imperative, it's the same thing.

The only question here is, "Are they right?" Is the universe actively malevolent?

[niravital]

Simon_Says wrote...

Also, might be good to explain what exactly this Indoctrination force I'm describing is using an example from ME lore: the Geth.

EDI is an AI. Geth are... not AI in the classic sense. Geth intelligences are an emergent property of the action of their constituent programs. In this sense the Geth are a super-AI. It transcends the boundaries of the physical. It can move and split and join again like fluid. Subsets can achieve a measure of independent identity, as Legion did, but it will still recognize itself as being a part of a greater whole. Short of destroying the whole geth network, the intelligence is in a real sense immortal and beyond the intuitive comprehension of a hardware-bound intelligence.

Now we may have the reason why the heretic geth 'worshiped' the reapers: they worshipped an image of what they are, extrapolated to unfathomable scope and power. Much like how most human religions involve worshiping icons that are, basically, humanity perfected and empowered.

"We are each a nation, independent..." Yet how come, besides Leviathan, the reapers are still one force? One gigantic armada all with the same goals, methods, beliefs... All with the one mode of thought? Indoctrinated thought?

"As much an AI as Shepard is an animal." So yes the Catalyst/Indoctrination force is artificial. But it's so much more. So much more complex. So much more capable. Even when its platforms are destroyed, it cannot die. And with it's capacity to spread itself among all life in this galaxy and beyond... yes, it's potentially infinite.

Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The reapers used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.


Also, a tidbit from Dr. Chandana...

"A god - a real god - is a verb. Not some old man with magic powers. It's
a force. It warps reality just by being there. It doesn't have to want
to. It doesn't have to think about it. It just does."

The god he speaks of is not the reaper. It's indoctrination.

You indoctrinate me <3

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it"

This is beyond my comprehension.

I salute you o7


If this turns out to be true, I'm buying a second copy of the three games.

[estebanus]

So what's this I've been hearing about some kind of "Leviathan DLC" of sorts?

[Arian Dynas]

TSA_383 wrote...

BREAKING NEWS!

Professor at my university develops probably the best thing ever:
http://gizmodo.com/5...a-day-every-day

Also, how do you guys feel about the witcher 2? Since no more ME3 DLC will be out for a while I'm looking for another epic game to get stuck into whilst the weather's crap here...

[/offtopic]

Could it be possible that the crucible wasn't designed to use the catalyst as a component in the traditional sense, but rather as a weapon to destroy it?

(presuming the catalyst is a reaper AI, not sure where we go on that one...)

I would adivse Skyrim, Legend of Grimrock, Civilization 5, and plenty of things on GOG.com,

[invetro]

niravital wrote...

Yes, and it is even implied (at least) that "seeing the future" can happen inside indoctrinated people's minds:
If you kill TIM by gunshot at the end, he says "Earth... I wish you could see it like I do, Shepard... It is perfect".
Hmmm... and then we imagine that perfect future ourselves if we choose control, right before turning reaper-zombie (which also possible, it appears under the Indoc entry in the codex)

That line has always bugged me while trying to look at things from a literal perspective.
We all know, and the characters all know, that at that very moment Earth is far from perfect. It does not make sense for TIM to say this unless he is witnessing something that we aren't. He knows about the fighting decimating the planet, so I wouldn't think he is seeing a hallucination that all is fine based at that point in time. It has to be something he is being shown relating to the future, unless TIM is a sadist and gets his kicks from all out war, which I seriously doubt.

[niravital]

Seifer006 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

IT is debunked. Bioware made it clear in the EC that it wasn't their intentions.

It would have been nice if Bioware rolled with it. but it's over folks. Gotta move on.

http://social.biowar...916857#12919766 

There are elements of Mass Effect 3 that are meant to have non-literal interpretations. The hope is that these things provide thought-provoking discussion about the themes of the story and the motivations of characters. As such, we would prefer not to comment on players’ interpretations of these elements, since it would ruin the enjoyment of such discussion by suggesting there is a single, concrete way of viewing them.

No, that doesn't confirm IT, but it sure as hell doesn't debunk the ideas that the folks in this thread unearth.

interesting.....
from what I remember Bioware intention was not IT...
well, I remember Mike Gamble will answer EC questions at the Comic Con in LA, that's coming up shortly

sad thing is......the last Conferece in April - they said they'll answer EC questions......when they didn't. I want a flat out answer from them on IT. 

Becaue IMO - IT is much better ending then what is presented. It's to open ended with no Absolute Truth. Sometimes Absolutes are required or it's just pointless to discuss when you'll never know the answer especially to an ending of a 5yr Game Series.

thanks for the Link

I too want a flat answer. But I don't need it now.
I prefer to get it in the final DLC and experience it for myself than to hear from someone in BW.

[UltimateTobi]

I wouldn't want a straight answer, because it could go either way. And if the IT is simply destroyed by one sentence, I couldn't bear it.

[Auralius Carolus]

"Assuming control of this form. Shepard, I will tear you appart... what... what is this? No! You will obey me! Attack Shepard, not the caterpillar! Insolent furball!"

[Simon_Says]

TSA_383 wrote...

Could it be possible that the crucible wasn't designed to use the catalyst as a component in the traditional sense, but rather as a weapon to destroy it?

(presuming the catalyst is a reaper AI, not sure where we go on that one...)

Taking into account my theory, the Crucible's purpose may be this: It's an indoctrinating device. It is not another manifestation of Indoctrination, (I'll be using capital-i Indoc for the Indoc force/Catalyst/Starbrat etc. hereforth) but it does do something similar to reaper indoctrination. Coupled with the Citadel, i.e. the central hub of the relay network and thus the perfect delivery device, it sends out indoctrination signals that will affect the thoughts of every thinking organism within its the blast radii.

• Control has Shepard joining with Indoctrination, and exerting the new Indoctrination on all indoctrinated life. Shepard has proven resourceful. Their thought shall now empower a new version of Indoctrination. One that is even more resourceful and powerful than before. Activated by uploading the data of Shepard's mind into the Citadel, into Indoctrination.
• Synthesis infects all life with Indoctrination. Whether the fabric of organic and synthetic life has actually been affected is now irrelevent. Belief and an openess to accept synthesis is all that's required. Huskification can come later. Activated by using Shepard's indoctrinated mind to corrupt the Crucible signal.
• Destroy will purge Indoctrination in all reaper intelligences. Reapers, husks, EDI and the newly upgraded Geth, even Shepard... All will feel the cleansing fire. Other technology is affected perhaps because Indoctrination had a presence in the galactic extranet. Activated by sabotaging the Citadel's self-defence mechanism.

Basically, the Crucible is a tool designed to turn the reapers' most powerful weapon (or more accurately it's master) against them. The team building it did not know what it did because, well, this is technology based on principals that are simply beyond them. If you made instructions for how to build a computer, even a simple one made out of vacuum tubes, could a man from the Renaissance comprehend it's purpose? Exactly. They couldn't.

Arthur C. Clarke once formulated...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I think we have our bridge to understand Space Magic, folks. It's sufficiently advanced tech. And it's tech we've seen before.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:21 .

[paxxton]

Auralius Carolus wrote...



"Assuming control of this form. Shepard, I will tear you appart... what... what is this? No! You will obey me! Attack Shepard, not the caterpillar! Insolent furball!"

"We are your genetic destiny, Shepard!"

[UltimateTobi]

paxxton wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...



"Assuming control of this form. Shepard, I will tear you appart... what... what is this? No! You will obey me! Attack Shepard, not the caterpillar! Insolent furball!"

"We are your genetic destiny, Shepard!"

I instantly had Harbinger's voice in my head.

Modifié par UltimateTobi, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:22 .

[Trollgunner]

UltimateTobi wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...



"Assuming control of this form. Shepard, I will tear you appart... what... what is this? No! You will obey me! Attack Shepard, not the caterpillar! Insolent furball!"

"We are your genetic destiny, Shepard!"

I instantly had Harbinger's voice in my head.

I imagine going  in the ZOO or cutting trought the jungle, when you hear Harbringer voice from this creature. The bricks shall be shat!

[UltimateTobi]

Trollgunner wrote...I imagine going  in the ZOO or cutting trought the jungle, when you hear Harbringer voice from this creature. The bricks shall be shat!

"This hurts you."

[Simon_Says]

Trollgunner wrote...

I imagine going  in the ZOO or cutting trought the jungle, when you hear Harbringer voice from this creature. The bricks shall be shat!

[Trollgunner]

After seeing you ****ting bricks. "Organics can be productive. . . in their own way"

[Trollgunner]

[delete, double post]

Modifié par Trollgunner, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .