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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#38726
byne

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TSA_383 wrote...

Also, is any of this refuse dialog new?
"I made it this far. We'll destroy you without setting it off."
"I'd rather die fighting this war my way, then by some arbitrary choices you've created."
"I'll die knowing that my friends and loved ones can choose their own fates."
"And we will die free. We will die fighting to stop you and everything you stand for."
"And we will die knowing we did everything we could to stop you."
"At least I'll die free."


What do you mean is it new? Refuse is an entirely new option, so wouldnt all refuse dialogue be new by definition?

#38727
Andromidius

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TSA_383 wrote...
"I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life."


Hense why it did a great job of stopping the Geth from attacking organics...  Oh wait.

"You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost."


Basically saying "You'll be like us, you'll think like us, you'll come around to our way of thinking."  Which really is not a good thing, since even if ReaperShep was created using Shep's memories and had the best intentions to start with, eventually it would come to believe the same things the other Reapers did.  Because if we take Starbinger's word on the fact they are 'preserving organics' then why would they stop reaping? 

"Because the organics have been unwilling. It is not something that can be... forced."


This is a blatant lie.  Only one person is willing - and that's Shepard if he/she chooses it.  No-one else is asked.  It is forced upon the entire galaxy.

Also, is any of this refuse dialog new?
"I made it this far. We'll destroy you without setting it off."
"I'd rather die fighting this war my way, then by some arbitrary choices you've created."
"I'll die knowing that my friends and loved ones can choose their own fates."
"And we will die free. We will die fighting to stop you and everything you stand for."
"And we will die knowing we did everything we could to stop you."
"At least I'll die free."


Its all new to the EC.  And its a great speech.  Shame its directly followed by 'standing around and looking around in a lonely and scared manner' instead of actually backing up those words with appropriate action.

#38728
Arian Dynas

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It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.
We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.
Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.
They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.
Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.
Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.
Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too. 

-Cut ME2 Dialogue

For the hell of it, as well as to stimulate SOME kind of discussion, well I'm going to dissect this. Just be sure to remember, the reason cited for cutting this dialogue is that it would ruin the Human Reaper reveal. Might be lie, might not.

It was lonely. - References to the first Reaper being abandoned by it's creators? Something else entirely? A force controlling the Reapers?

It called to us. -summoning the indoctrinated individual giving this monologue? Summoning the Reapers?

It wanted to remember, the Masters had been gone so long. - Perhaps the First Reaper was seeking it's purpose in the universe after the death of it's creators? Perhaps it itself does not remember it's own method of creation?

The Masters were lost when It was shattered. - What was shattered? The Reaper "homeworld"? A galaxy wide extinction event?

The currents swept through the Inner Worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble. - A reference to some kind of massive chaos? The worlds being reduced to chaos? The Inner Worlds could perhaps refer to the innermost parts of the galatic disc.

The Worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow. - Now things get a bit more clear, all advanced organic life, if not all organic life was wiped out at some point, but the galaxy was still capable of bearing life in some form.

The Heart pumped, the Lungs breathed. But the Mind forgot the Masters. - The galactic core was untouched, the stars still burned and the atmospheres remained, each planet still capable of bearing life, but eventually even the galaxy itself forgot these so called "Masters" slowly decaying their memory to the point of nonexsistence.

It called and They did not answer. - The First Reaper, requesting orders from it's Masters and receiving no response.

We have become an Echo of Their Echo. - We have become like these "Masters" only lesser somehow.

We have become more than we were. - Not a clue.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our Lives. - Join the Reapers, become one with them. Gain infinite knowledge, indicates some sort of interconnectivity? Perhaps Reapers communicate with oneanother? Perhaps it's a reference to the Gestalt mind of each Reaper?

We are no longer afraid
. - We have moved beyond petty earthly concerns. The secrets of the universe no longer faze us.

You would never be lonely again. - More references to the Reaper Gestalt mind.

We are not your Enemy. We only wish to share ourselves. - The Reapers do not desire our destruction or our extermination, they desire to make us understand them, potentially through indoctrination, though this also ties into Harbinger's constant references to their "Perfection".

We can join them. We can be like them. - More references to the Reapers using repurposed bodies for building material.

We can reach the end of evolution. - References to Synthesis as a doctrine, as well as the creation of the Human Reaper. THEY are the end of evolution as far as they are concerned and nothing else can be. The "end of evolution" is Reapers as far as they are concerned.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves. - References to their supposed perfection? To their Gestalt mind?

You cannot defeat them. They will lead us to Eternity. - Obvious.

If only you could see what we see. Learn what we have learned. - More pandering.

They were called the Imshai, those who came before. - Perhaps the name of the "Masters"?

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest. - The definition of Reapers as we know them in game.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather. - A reference to a coming climax? The rest is obvious.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.  - An appeal to Shepard, as well as a comment on how they see themselves as "enlightening" us.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:50 .


#38729
TSA_383

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byne wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Also, is any of this refuse dialog new?
"I made it this far. We'll destroy you without setting it off."
"I'd rather die fighting this war my way, then by some arbitrary choices you've created."
"I'll die knowing that my friends and loved ones can choose their own fates."
"And we will die free. We will die fighting to stop you and everything you stand for."
"And we will die knowing we did everything we could to stop you."
"At least I'll die free."


What do you mean is it new? Refuse is an entirely new option, so wouldnt all refuse dialogue be new by definition?

I was under the impression that at least one of those lines hadn't appeared in the "refuse" speech - maybe I'm totally wrong though...

#38730
TSA_383

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Arian Dynas wrote...

*snip*


Very interesting stuff, do we have any context for where it was cut from?

#38731
Arian Dynas

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TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

*snip*


Very interesting stuff, do we have any context for where it was cut from?


Not the foggiest notion in me noggin, I'm afraid.

#38732
Andromidius

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Arian Dynas wrote...

It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.
We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.
Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.
They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.
Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.
Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.
Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too. 

-Cut ME2 Dialogue


Burr.  That's just creepy on so many levels.  I even imaged it being spoken by a multitude of voices all as one (like when the Rachni Queen is talking in ME3).  Burr.

Kill them with fire.

#38733
Arian Dynas

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Though I do find it interesting that it conjures images not unlike those seen in the visions Shepard gets when you read through it.

#38734
TSA_383

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Arian Dynas wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

*snip*


Very interesting stuff, do we have any context for where it was cut from?


Not the foggiest notion in me noggin, I'm afraid.


Found it.
It was originally a monologue from the "derelict reaper" mission :?
That's right, monologue.
I wonder why they cut it...

#38735
MegumiAzusa

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TSA_383 wrote...

byne wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Also, is any of this refuse dialog new?
"I made it this far. We'll destroy you without setting it off."
"I'd rather die fighting this war my way, then by some arbitrary choices you've created."
"I'll die knowing that my friends and loved ones can choose their own fates."
"And we will die free. We will die fighting to stop you and everything you stand for."
"And we will die knowing we did everything we could to stop you."
"At least I'll die free."


What do you mean is it new? Refuse is an entirely new option, so wouldnt all refuse dialogue be new by definition?

I was under the impression that at least one of those lines hadn't appeared in the "refuse" speech - maybe I'm totally wrong though...

"I'd rather die fighting this war my way, then by some arbitrary choices you've created."
"I'll die knowing that my friends and loved ones can choose their own fates."
"And we will die free. We will die fighting to stop you and everything you stand for."
"And we will die knowing we did everything we could to stop you."
"At least I'll die free."
These are all new or other versions of the ones used.

btw the first line is just when refusing destroy.


Note:
"And we will die knowing we did everything we could to stop you."
this is nearly the same as ingame but the ingame version is singular:
"And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you."

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .


#38736
Arian Dynas

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After some research it was apparently supposed to be part of the Derelict Reaper mission, unsurprising, perhaps a payoff to the build up with Chandana that got cut?

Either way it was apparently dialogue left in the string files.

****. Ninja'd :ph34r:

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:57 .


#38737
Arian Dynas

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TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

*snip*


Very interesting stuff, do we have any context for where it was cut from?


Not the foggiest notion in me noggin, I'm afraid.


Found it.
It was originally a monologue from the "derelict reaper" mission :?
That's right, monologue.
I wonder why they cut it...


The reason they cited was it spoiled the Human Reaper reveal. Personally, IDK what to think.

Thoughts on what it might mean though?

#38738
TSA_383

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Arian Dynas wrote...

It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.


^Seems to support the "Reapers being controlled by a greater intelligence" theory, but also the idea that they are capable of somewhat independent thought when that connection is severed. Combined with what we know about Leviathan, could get interesting indeed.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.

^This reaper certainly seems to have developed a different mode of thinking over the past 37 million years. Not enough to be totally free, but not like Harbinger or sovereign.

We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.


^Blah blah synthesis blah blah...

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.


^More synthesis...

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

^The species used to make this particular reaper.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.
Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.
Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too. 

^And so, Shepard leads his flock to the slaughter by taking them to london with the Reaper device...

-Cut ME2 Dialogue


^Notes above...

#38739
Arian Dynas

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1. Yes, but it also indicates that they were abandoned, that the controlling force is no longer present.

2. Explain.

3. Pretty much.

4. Hmm, that's a thought.

5. Wagging their tails behind them.

So you're saying that this might be just the dialogue of a specific reaper known as the the Imshai?

#38740
TSA_383

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Arian Dynas wrote...

So you're saying that this might be just the dialogue of a specific reaper known as the the Imshai?

From the dialogue, I gathered that it was more likely to be a monologue with an indoctrinated servant of the derelict reaper made from the Imshai...

Arian Dynas wrote...

1. Yes, but it also indicates that they were abandoned, that the controlling force is no longer present.

That's what I was getting at - surely the way to victory is to eliminate whatever force it is that controls the reapers presently...

Modifié par TSA_383, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .


#38741
Arian Dynas

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TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

So you're saying that this might be just the dialogue of a specific reaper known as the the Imshai?

From the dialogue, I gathered that it was more likely to be a monologue with an indoctrinated servant of the derelict reaper made from the Imshai...

Arian Dynas wrote...

1. Yes, but it also indicates that they were abandoned, that the controlling force is no longer present.

That's what I was getting at - surely the way to victory is to eliminate whatever force it is that controls the reapers presently...


Ah, that would make sense.

No, I was saying that the implication that there WAS a controlling force is no longer valid, since the same implication that said force abandoned them or was destroyed was also implied.

Meaning the very existence of the Guardian is a lie.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:20 .


#38742
TSA_383

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You were also asking why I thought it was thinking differently now that control was severed?

How many other reapers have we come across that are beset by feelings of loneliness?

#38743
MegumiAzusa

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TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

[i]It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.


^Seems to support the "Reapers being controlled by a greater intelligence" theory, but also the idea that they are capable of somewhat independent thought when that connection is severed. Combined with what we know about Leviathan, could get interesting indeed.

I disagree. "It" seems to be the derelict Reaper, but as some sort of husk, only the body lived. If we remember Nazara's "we are each a nation" we can assume this husk part that lives on is the synthetic/machine part. The machine was missing the organic parts to be whole, the organics would be the masters that control the machine. "They were turned to noise. Babble." they are still somewhat there, but as it's damaged it can't respond to their commands as the connection is corrupted and the commands create errors.

TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.

^This reaper certainly seems to have developed a different mode of thinking over the past 37 million years. Not enough to be totally free, but not like Harbinger or sovereign.

We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.


^Blah blah synthesis blah blah...

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.


^More synthesis...

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

^The species used to make this particular reaper.

This rather seems to come from one of the indoctrinated scientists. As in "we" (and the "us" used before) equals the scientists, they the organics used to create the Reaper as you said, but they is also used before as "the Masters". Becoming and echo of their echo would mean the machine indoctrinates organics like the scientists in a try to be whole again, to replace the organics it has lost the connection with.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:28 .


#38744
Humakt83

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I uploaded the new Catalyst conversation and added couple remarks to my YouTube channel.



#38745
Andromidius

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I agree that its probably referencing the Derelict Reaper. It was 'abandoned' due to being crippled beyond repair, and has been alone for millions of years.

#38746
Arian Dynas

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Andromidius wrote...

I agree that its probably referencing the Derelict Reaper. It was 'abandoned' due to being crippled beyond repair, and has been alone for millions of years.


I like that. That makes sense.

#38747
MegumiAzusa

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I agree that its probably referencing the Derelict Reaper. It was 'abandoned' due to being crippled beyond repair, and has been alone for millions of years.


I like that. That makes sense.

No it does not. The Masters are nothing external:

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.

"It" refers only to the mechanical parts that remained after these "currents".

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:48 .


#38748
niravital

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Simon_Says wrote...

But it was emphasized apparently.

This means that that line is important.

Any other lines similarly emphasised? (Other than "SO BE IT" naturally.)


I don't know if it was in the same manner, but the kid's tone changes several times.
Mostly when he tries to dismiss Shep's words.
I find the three "no"s in the beginning of the dialogue to be with a somewhat violent tone...

"I thought the Citadel was the catalyst..."
"NO!"

"By wiping out organic life?!"
"NO!"

"I think we'd rather keep our own form..."
"NO! You can't." (but you can if you destroy or control really.... contradicting is fun!)


and that's it, he doesn't say another "no" in the rest of the dialogue.
but... it could be nothing also.

#38749
Rosewind

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Sort of off topic but space related did you all hear about the Hadron Collider proving that Higgs Boson exists.

#38750
MegumiAzusa

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Rosewind wrote...

Sort of off topic but space related did you all hear about the Hadron Collider proving that Higgs Boson exists.

They didn't prove it 100% yet. But they are really close.