55528 réponses à ce sujet

[RenegonSQ]

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

[demersel]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

It is a very interesting idea. many intricate measures of control to keep galactic civilizations moving along a path the reapers choose. The shadow broker is the ultimate information broker and information is the most powerful tool to be used by anyone.

I personaly find it hard to believe this is what Bioware intended, but it is a brilliant idea.

Whether or not it is what bioware indended is irrelevant at this point. It could be, it could be not. It's not like i'm making things up with it - i'm just connecting the dots that are there (and only those that are there).

What is next for the mass effect franchise we'll see after they release more DLC. 

All i'm saying, this would be a terriffic story. And all plot points for it are there. 

[zigamortis]

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

I wish it were that simple.

[TJBartlemus]

DrTsoni wrote...

Nobody can confirm or deny this?

DrTsoni wrote...

Someone mentioned it earlier and it reminded me, but I think I found where the camera bob starts in London. The last three times I've played, it didn't start until the apartment with the charred bodies, only starting when I hit R3 (on PS3, not sure what that is on Xbox or PC) for the view outside the window (by the turrets).

Hey guys!!! Happy fourth of July!!! :DB)

Yeah, there is a lot of strange stuff regarding the apartment. The similarities in that mission to the rest of the game are freaky. (Check WNT: Version 2 - link for Riot86's post) So there is definately something going on there...

[Priss Blackburne]

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

I think the VI on Illos is it? explains how the reapers start out from the citadel. Can't remember how far it gets in explaining their tactics. I pretty sure they shut down the Relays from the citadel so everyone becomes isolated and use the information stored on the citadel to exterminate the races. Which makes you wonder how the other races would even be able to attempt to construct the crucible at all.

Yep, Vigil on Ilos explained that the elite forces of the Empire were crushed at the Citadel, then the Reapers locked down the Relays and began to focus on one system at a time.

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

Delay tactic so they could find all the inhabited systems. They did not have Citadel info and probably figured it was a better idea not to go after the Citadel right away wihtout first getting all the races focused on something else.

They would also see humans as the biggest threat to them thanks to shepard so makes sense they would attempt to take them out of the equation as quickly as possible.

[Arian Dynas]

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

*GASP!* AN ANTI TROLL!

[Iconoclaste]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

[Turbo_J]

Ah crap... the fetch quests lead Shep to every system and alerted Reaper forces that something of interest may be there. Shep may have helped them find many target systems. The rest they could find on their own... they are infinitely patient after all.

[TJBartlemus]

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

I think the VI on Illos is it? explains how the reapers start out from the citadel. Can't remember how far it gets in explaining their tactics. I pretty sure they shut down the Relays from the citadel so everyone becomes isolated and use the information stored on the citadel to exterminate the races. Which makes you wonder how the other races would even be able to attempt to construct the crucible at all.

Yep, Vigil on Ilos explained that the elite forces of the Empire were crushed at the Citadel, then the Reapers locked down the Relays and began to focus on one system at a time.

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

Delay tactic so they could find all the inhabited systems. They did not have Citadel info and probably figured it was a better idea not to go after the Citadel right away wihtout first getting all the races focused on something else.

For me it seems strange on how the Reapers decide when to attack each cycle. Is it every 50,000 years on the dot, or is it something else? I think it's the ability to create AI's that starts it, because it can't be advanced tech. The Protheans were way further in technology than this cycle. Speculations??

[Priss Blackburne]

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

[TJBartlemus]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

Yes, but if this is the case, then why didn't starchild activate the relay then?? The device that was disabled was a signal reciever for a signal from a reaper to the keepers to activate the relay. And in the Reject ending you see the starchild disabling the crucible, so it can do stuff in the Citadel. So....huh?? Makes no sense. Wouldn't that be a good question to ask the Catalyst in the end?? 

[Iconoclaste]

TJBartlemus wrote...

For me it seems strange on how the Reapers decide when to attack each cycle. Is it every 50,000 years on the dot, or is it something else? I think it's the ability to create AI's that starts it, because it can't be advanced tech. The Protheans were way further in technology than this cycle. Speculations??

It could be a combination of key factors, like the ability to make advanced AI, the ability to defeat one or more Reaper conventionally, the simple fact that the Reaper's existence comes to be discovered, etc. Those would point to a sufficient level of tech advancement to justify the "Reaping".

[Turbo_J]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

[jgibson14352]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

I think the VI on Illos is it? explains how the reapers start out from the citadel. Can't remember how far it gets in explaining their tactics. I pretty sure they shut down the Relays from the citadel so everyone becomes isolated and use the information stored on the citadel to exterminate the races. Which makes you wonder how the other races would even be able to attempt to construct the crucible at all.

Yep, Vigil on Ilos explained that the elite forces of the Empire were crushed at the Citadel, then the Reapers locked down the Relays and began to focus on one system at a time.

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

Delay tactic so they could find all the inhabited systems. They did not have Citadel info and probably figured it was a better idea not to go after the Citadel right away wihtout first getting all the races focused on something else.

For me it seems strange on how the Reapers decide when to attack each cycle. Is it every 50,000 years on the dot, or is it something else? I think it's the ability to create AI's that starts it, because it can't be advanced tech. The Protheans were way further in technology than this cycle. Speculations??

the reapers leave a vanguard to decide when the cycle is to be harvested, when sovereign decided it was time, he sent the signal to the keepers only to realize the protheans had sabotaged it, as to their criteria that decide the exact moment to harvest? no idea, thats just how

[demersel]

Turbo_J wrote...

Okay, Book incoming... This is not fully fleshed out so hack away at it and maybe we'll have something coherent.

Thessia: Prothean VI Vendetta.

There is a real problem with this thing right from the start:

Without prompting, this thing knows English. The entire squad could understand it instantly. The only time this happened before was on Ilos, but Vigil was active and studied the Normandy and squad communications and possibly that of Saren's comms before Shep and company found it.

Furthermore, its protocol for displaying virtual 3D information shouldn't be seen as more than static or garble by anyone but Shepard; especially if you have Javik; Shep 'understood' the videos, where as the squad mates only saw static.

The first words our of Shepard's mouth are 'We need answers! We need to know what the catalyst is so we can finish the crucible.'

How does it know what either of these things are without any kind of context? An understanding of the English language is not enough. These words are arbitrary. Even if it is in charge of the construction of the 'device', a VI is not capable of making assumptions and surely would not devulge this information without an identifiable connection; device(whatever they called it)=crucible. It would need to ask for context or clarification before being able to answer the question. Security protocols alone should prevent it from doing so.

When talking about the pattern, Vendetta says "It's possible(that the reapers run the pattern), but 'I' believe the reapers are just servants of the pattern and not it's master."

How can a VI identify itself as 'I' in the context of drawing conclusions. It should have said 'my creator(s)' or 'we' as in the Protheans, or 'research/investigation' concluded that... but not 'I'. Referring to itself in such a manner in the process of expounding a conclusion like this would require it to be self aware; An AI, not a VI.

EDI 'posed' as a VI...

"Wait. You can lie?" When joker removed EDIs shackles, there were no longer any restraints that forced her to be truthful. We don't know if Vendetta has such shackles because there is no real time to investigate and it's assumed it is a VI. Even if it was truthful to the extent of its programming on Thessia, Cronos Station poses even more problems with its trustworthiness given its security was hacked.

Of course we come back to understanding Prothean language and visual data... How does TIM hack this thing at all? How does he then understand Prothean language and visual display without a cipher? If Cerberus can't figure out Javik's stasis pod ending sequence and unlock commands, how can they suddenly copy the VI to an Omni-Tool and hack it.


The main clue to this entire thing... Liara talking to EDI in her cabin.

Liara "If I had been shown the beacon earlier I could have saved my people."

EDI "You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it."

So then how did the squad comprehend it at all?

Two possibilities:

It was hacked before they got there - and not by Cerberus.

It was a shared perception of events; be it hallucination, delusion or real time comprehension of what Shepard was seeing.

All valid points! Great. Really need a second playthrough. I started one and got up to surkesh mission (by the way during that playthrough i had an idea about glyph, it really screams "TRAP!" And listen closely to what that thing says and how - the drone is openly mocking you. ) after that had work and could not really play a lot. Waited for the EC, but then watched it on youtube, cause still didn't have time to play, but now i feel that i REALLY need to finis a second playthrough. Maybe even start over from the very beginning. Missions on thessia, cronos station and priority earth is just a big blur to me... (rushed through them through the course of the night)

[RenegonSQ]

zigamortis wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

I wish it were that simple.

It is that simple, when you believe.

[Priss Blackburne]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

Yes, but if this is the case, then why didn't starchild activate the relay then?? The device that was disabled was a signal reciever for a signal from a reaper to the keepers to activate the relay. And in the Reject ending you see the starchild disabling the crucible, so it can do stuff in the Citadel. So....huh?? Makes no sense. Wouldn't that be a good question to ask the Catalyst in the end?? 

yeah..the catalyst is a huge plot hole they don't seem to want to fill. At least with IT you figure out is Harby trying to trick you otherwise your stuck with the contratiction that is the catalyst's control over the citadel and reapers.

[Turbo_J]

Iconoclaste wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

For me it seems strange on how the Reapers decide when to attack each cycle. Is it every 50,000 years on the dot, or is it something else? I think it's the ability to create AI's that starts it, because it can't be advanced tech. The Protheans were way further in technology than this cycle. Speculations??

It could be a combination of key factors, like the ability to make advanced AI, the ability to defeat one or more Reaper conventionally, the simple fact that the Reaper's existence comes to be discovered, etc. Those would point to a sufficient level of tech advancement to justify the "Reaping".

Read the blurb on Trikalon: Athena Nebula, Lalessa system. This is Tech based on Asari and Human engineering and it was treated as a major threat by the Reapers. I've noticed this kind of thing before but so subtly that I've not given it much thought. Reapers really don't like tech that is NOT based on Mass Relay or Reaper technology. Kind of supports my thoughts on the 50K year cycle being purely based on self preservation in relations to galactic civilizations advancing passed Reaper tech, making harvesting at that point much more difficult and costly.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:49 .

[demersel]

Turbo_J wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

and given that my point follows - reapers can be beaten conventionaly. All-powerfull unstoppable force doesn't use deception. Logic. 

[Rosewind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

*GASP!* AN ANTI TROLL!

I think Hell just froze over.

[Turbo_J]

demersel wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

and given that my point follows - reapers can be beaten conventionaly. All-powerfull unstoppable force doesn't use deception. Logic. 

Listen to the news in the Specter office. "Anything that hides knows fear. The Reapers fears us."

Modifié par Turbo_J, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:51 .

[demersel]

Turbo_J wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

For me it seems strange on how the Reapers decide when to attack each cycle. Is it every 50,000 years on the dot, or is it something else? I think it's the ability to create AI's that starts it, because it can't be advanced tech. The Protheans were way further in technology than this cycle. Speculations??

It could be a combination of key factors, like the ability to make advanced AI, the ability to defeat one or more Reaper conventionally, the simple fact that the Reaper's existence comes to be discovered, etc. Those would point to a sufficient level of tech advancement to justify the "Reaping".

Read the blurb on Trikalon: Athena Nebula, Lalessa system. This is Tech based on Asari and Human engineering and it was treated as a major threat by the Reapers. I've noticed this kind of thing before but so subtly that I've not given it much thought. Reapers really don't like tech that is NOT based on Mass Relay or Reaper technology. Kind of supports my thoughts on the 50K year cycle being purely based on self preservation in relations to galactic civilizations advancing passed Reaper tech, making harvesting at that point much more difficult and costly.

exactly! If you read through the texts on the planets you'll now that reapers generally use precise strikes on the strategic targets - they destroy production, science and mining centers. They are fighting a conventional war using blietzkrieg type tactics...

[Auralius Carolus]

Turbo_J wrote...

Okay, Book incoming... This is not fully fleshed out so hack away at it and maybe we'll have something coherent.

Thessia: Prothean VI Vendetta.

There is a real problem with this thing right from the start:

Without prompting, this thing knows English. The entire squad could understand it instantly. The only time this happened before was on Ilos, but Vigil was active and studied the Normandy and squad communications and possibly that of Saren's comms before Shep and company found it.

It has been within a Temple housing Asari for countless years; their language may very well be known, which can be translated by software used on your person, (standard for interspecies/culture communications).

Furthermore, its protocol for displaying virtual 3D information shouldn't be seen as more than static or garble by anyone but Shepard; especially if you have Javik; Shep 'understood' the videos, where as the squad mates only saw static.

The Ilos VI appeared as static because it was almost out of power, and about to collapse. Vendetta had secretly been upkept by the Asari.

The first words our of Shepard's mouth are 'We need answers! We need to know what the catalyst is so we can finish the crucible.'

How does it know what either of these things are without any kind of context? An understanding of the English language is not enough. These words are arbitrary. Even if it is in charge of the construction of the 'device', a VI is not capable of making assumptions and surely would not devulge this information without an identifiable connection; device(whatever they called it)=crucible. It would need to ask for context or clarification before being able to answer the question. Security protocols alone should prevent it from doing so.

"Crucible" and "Catalyst" were two terms apparently adopted from a easily and loosely translated set of information left by the Protheans on Mars. The relationship between the two words, and appropriate translation, would be enough.

When talking about the pattern, Vendetta says "It's possible(that the reapers run the pattern), but 'I' believe the reapers are just servants of the pattern and not it's master."

How can a VI identify itself as 'I' in the context of drawing conclusions. It should have said 'my creator(s)' or 'we' as in the Protheans, or 'research/investigation' concluded that... but not 'I'. Referring to itself in such a manner in the process of expounding a conclusion like this would require it to be self aware; An AI, not a VI.

As revealed by Vigil and reinforced by your potential Prothean companion, Prothean VI's were often designed to act as digital personality replicas, which would simulate talking with the actual individual.

EDI 'posed' as a VI...

A valid observation, and one worth noting all the same. However, the need for a Reaper AI would have to outweigh the need for the Reapers to remain hidden. Whatever the AI were to disclose would have to be of tremendous value.

"Wait. You can lie?" When joker removed EDIs shackles, there were no longer any restraints that forced her to be truthful. We don't know if Vendetta has such shackles because there is no real time to investigate and it's assumed it is a VI. Even if it was truthful to the extent of its programming on Thessia, Cronos Station poses even more problems with its trustworthiness given its security was hacked.

Nor do we know if it is an AI. Speculation is all we have, with little substance.

Of course we come back to understanding Prothean language and visual data... How does TIM hack this thing at all? How does he then understand Prothean language and visual display without a cipher? If Cerberus can't figure out Javik's stasis pod ending sequence and unlock commands, how can they suddenly copy the VI to an Omni-Tool and hack it.

This is unknown. It is possible, however, that such knowledge could have been modified from information uploaded from Mars, (it is unknown if the intel went quantum or stayed with EVA). It is likely that the Protheans left information on how to detect indoctrination, and this in turn, would reveal the details of the tech. From there the safeguards could be observed and disarmed.


The main clue to this entire thing... Liara talking to EDI in her cabin.

Liara "If I had been shown the beacon earlier I could have saved my people."

EDI "You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it."

So then how did the squad comprehend it at all?

Two possibilities:

It was hacked before they got there - and not by Cerberus.

It was a shared perception of events; be it hallucination, delusion or real time comprehension of what Shepard was seeing.

Vendetta was a hologram, not a biological imprint like the beacon on Eden Prime. It could be observed by all who had eyes.

I've considered and challenged your observations.

Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .

[Nightingale]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

i wouldnt look too much into camera bobbing, can that really mean much? i imagine they only put that there to simulate the final, ground shaking battle.

I'm not sure. There's no doubt it's intentional, and I thought it was just to make it more dramatic the first time I played through, but it's possible there's more to it. It would help if we could figure out what exactly triggers it.

if it happens on all the platforms and after a certain point in the game, it is suspicous. As a bug don't always surface on all 3 platforms often. Especially one related to controls.

It does and it's not a glitch, they'd have to progam it in to begin with.

[Turbo_J]

demersel wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

and given that my point follows - reapers can be beaten conventionaly. All-powerfull unstoppable force doesn't use deception. Logic. 

I've always felt this way. I get blasted every time I bring it up, but I won't let insults or fear change who I am.