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[demersel]

Turbo_J wrote...

demersel wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

and given that my point follows - reapers can be beaten conventionaly. All-powerfull unstoppable force doesn't use deception. Logic. 

Listen to the news in the Specter office. "Anything that hides knows fear. The Reapers fears us."

I found out that there are news in spectre office only yesterday. ))) And it is incredebly usefull. I really did breeze through the game in my first playthrough. Granted, it was a thorough breeze, but still. The thing is, that all the evidence for the IT and more are really all there in plain view, all of them from major dialogs, most of them stated repeatedly, in "IN_YOUR_FACE" manner. 

[Turbo_J]

I should have posted this when it was slower. It ended up the last post on the page we were on so reposting.

Turbo_J wrote...

Okay, Book incoming... This is not fully fleshed out so hack away at it and maybe we'll have something coherent.

Thessia: Prothean VI Vendetta.

There is a real problem with this thing right from the start:

Without prompting, this thing knows English. The entire squad could understand it instantly. The only time this happened before was on Ilos, but Vigil was active and studied the Normandy and squad communications and possibly that of Saren's comms before Shep and company found it.

Furthermore, its protocol for displaying virtual 3D information shouldn't be seen as more than static or garble by anyone but Shepard; especially if you have Javik; Shep 'understood' the videos, where as the squad mates only saw static.

The first words our of Shepard's mouth are 'We need answers! We need to know what the catalyst is so we can finish the crucible.'

How does it know what either of these things are without any kind of context? An understanding of the English language is not enough. These words are arbitrary. Even if it is in charge of the construction of the 'device', a VI is not capable of making assumptions and surely would not devulge this information without an identifiable connection; device(whatever they called it)=crucible. It would need to ask for context or clarification before being able to answer the question. Security protocols alone should prevent it from doing so.

When talking about the pattern, Vendetta says "It's possible(that the reapers run the pattern), but 'I' believe the reapers are just servants of the pattern and not it's master."

How can a VI identify itself as 'I' in the context of drawing conclusions. It should have said 'my creator(s)' or 'we' as in the Protheans, or 'research/investigation' concluded that... but not 'I'. Referring to itself in such a manner in the process of expounding a conclusion like this would require it to be self aware; An AI, not a VI.

EDI 'posed' as a VI...

"Wait. You can lie?" When joker removed EDIs shackles, there were no longer any restraints that forced her to be truthful. We don't know if Vendetta has such shackles because there is no real time to investigate and it's assumed it is a VI. Even if it was truthful to the extent of its programming on Thessia, Cronos Station poses even more problems with its trustworthiness given its security was hacked.

Of course we come back to understanding Prothean language and visual data... How does TIM hack this thing at all? How does he then understand Prothean language and visual display without a cipher? If Cerberus can't figure out Javik's stasis pod ending sequence and unlock commands, how can they suddenly copy the VI to an Omni-Tool and hack it.


The main clue to this entire thing... Liara talking to EDI in her cabin.

Liara "If I had been shown the beacon earlier I could have saved my people."

EDI "You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it."

So then how did the squad comprehend it at all?

Two possibilities:

It was hacked before they got there - and not by Cerberus.

It was a shared perception of events; be it hallucination, delusion or real time comprehension of what Shepard was seeing.

[Nightingale]

Turbo_J wrote...

Okay, Book incoming... This is not fully fleshed out so hack away at it and maybe we'll have something coherent.

Thessia: Prothean VI Vendetta.

There is a real problem with this thing right from the start:

Without prompting, this thing knows English. The entire squad could understand it instantly. The only time this happened before was on Ilos, but Vigil was active and studied the Normandy and squad communications and possibly that of Saren's comms before Shep and company found it.

Furthermore, its protocol for displaying virtual 3D information shouldn't be seen as more than static or garble by anyone but Shepard; especially if you have Javik; Shep 'understood' the videos, where as the squad mates only saw static.

The first words our of Shepard's mouth are 'We need answers! We need to know what the catalyst is so we can finish the crucible.'

How does it know what either of these things are without any kind of context? An understanding of the English language is not enough. These words are arbitrary. Even if it is in charge of the construction of the 'device', a VI is not capable of making assumptions and surely would not devulge this information without an identifiable connection; device(whatever they called it)=crucible. It would need to ask for context or clarification before being able to answer the question. Security protocols alone should prevent it from doing so.

When talking about the pattern, Vendetta says "It's possible(that the reapers run the pattern), but 'I' believe the reapers are just servants of the pattern and not it's master."

How can a VI identify itself as 'I' in the context of drawing conclusions. It should have said 'my creator(s)' or 'we' as in the Protheans, or 'research/investigation' concluded that... but not 'I'. Referring to itself in such a manner in the process of expounding a conclusion like this would require it to be self aware; An AI, not a VI.

EDI 'posed' as a VI...

"Wait. You can lie?" When joker removed EDIs shackles, there were no longer any restraints that forced her to be truthful. We don't know if Vendetta has such shackles because there is no real time to investigate and it's assumed it is a VI. Even if it was truthful to the extent of its programming on Thessia, Cronos Station poses even more problems with its trustworthiness given its security was hacked.

Of course we come back to understanding Prothean language and visual data... How does TIM hack this thing at all? How does he then understand Prothean language and visual display without a cipher? If Cerberus can't figure out Javik's stasis pod ending sequence and unlock commands, how can they suddenly copy the VI to an Omni-Tool and hack it.


The main clue to this entire thing... Liara talking to EDI in her cabin.

Liara "If I had been shown the beacon earlier I could have saved my people."

EDI "You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it."

So then how did the squad comprehend it at all?

Two possibilities:

It was hacked before they got there - and not by Cerberus.

It was a shared perception of events; be it hallucination, delusion or real time comprehension of what Shepard was seeing.

It always seemed off to me (speaking the common language, being so willing to help then changing its mind, etc.) but I don't think I've ever thought of it that much. A shared perception of events makes sense, especially with Liara. There seems to be a theory making its rounds that she's been indoctrinated for a while, and if we take this Glyph idea into account, it seems highly likely. Nice work.

[BleedingUranium]

Turbo_J wrote...

demersel wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

and given that my point follows - reapers can be beaten conventionaly. All-powerfull unstoppable force doesn't use deception. Logic. 

I've always felt this way. I get blasted every time I bring it up, but I won't let insults or fear change who I am.

I agree as well. The Reapers smart, advanced, and all that, but they're not unstoppable, or any other word like that. Words that cause a feeling of awe in humans...

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:59 .

[Auralius Carolus]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

Yes, but if this is the case, then why didn't starchild activate the relay then?? The device that was disabled was a signal reciever for a signal from a reaper to the keepers to activate the relay. And in the Reject ending you see the starchild disabling the crucible, so it can do stuff in the Citadel. So....huh?? Makes no sense. Wouldn't that be a good question to ask the Catalyst in the end?? 

What the Catalyst can and cannot do is in question. However, it is safe to say that the Citadel could still be reinstated to Reaper control. A few Sovereign-class Reapers could take the station, easily, and capture several useful people for indoctrination. From their they could use them to perform Saren's duty and BAM! Instant control over the battlefield. But they don't do it... and the location of the Citadel is common knowledge, easily obtainable.

Something's amiss; any have decent strategist can see it.

[masster blaster]

DrTsoni wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Okay, Book incoming... This is not fully fleshed out so hack away at it and maybe we'll have something coherent.

Thessia: Prothean VI Vendetta.

There is a real problem with this thing right from the start:

Without prompting, this thing knows English. The entire squad could understand it instantly. The only time this happened before was on Ilos, but Vigil was active and studied the Normandy and squad communications and possibly that of Saren's comms before Shep and company found it.

Furthermore, its protocol for displaying virtual 3D information shouldn't be seen as more than static or garble by anyone but Shepard; especially if you have Javik; Shep 'understood' the videos, where as the squad mates only saw static.

The first words our of Shepard's mouth are 'We need answers! We need to know what the catalyst is so we can finish the crucible.'

How does it know what either of these things are without any kind of context? An understanding of the English language is not enough. These words are arbitrary. Even if it is in charge of the construction of the 'device', a VI is not capable of making assumptions and surely would not devulge this information without an identifiable connection; device(whatever they called it)=crucible. It would need to ask for context or clarification before being able to answer the question. Security protocols alone should prevent it from doing so.

When talking about the pattern, Vendetta says "It's possible(that the reapers run the pattern), but 'I' believe the reapers are just servants of the pattern and not it's master."

How can a VI identify itself as 'I' in the context of drawing conclusions. It should have said 'my creator(s)' or 'we' as in the Protheans, or 'research/investigation' concluded that... but not 'I'. Referring to itself in such a manner in the process of expounding a conclusion like this would require it to be self aware; An AI, not a VI.

EDI 'posed' as a VI...

"Wait. You can lie?" When joker removed EDIs shackles, there were no longer any restraints that forced her to be truthful. We don't know if Vendetta has such shackles because there is no real time to investigate and it's assumed it is a VI. Even if it was truthful to the extent of its programming on Thessia, Cronos Station poses even more problems with its trustworthiness given its security was hacked.

Of course we come back to understanding Prothean language and visual data... How does TIM hack this thing at all? How does he then understand Prothean language and visual display without a cipher? If Cerberus can't figure out Javik's stasis pod ending sequence and unlock commands, how can they suddenly copy the VI to an Omni-Tool and hack it.


The main clue to this entire thing... Liara talking to EDI in her cabin.

Liara "If I had been shown the beacon earlier I could have saved my people."

EDI "You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it."

So then how did the squad comprehend it at all?

Two possibilities:

It was hacked before they got there - and not by Cerberus.

It was a shared perception of events; be it hallucination, delusion or real time comprehension of what Shepard was seeing.

It always seemed off to me (speaking the common language, being so willing to help then changing its mind, etc.) but I don't think I've ever thought of it that much. A shared perception of events makes sense, especially with Liara. There seems to be a theory making its rounds that she's been indoctrinated for a while, and if we take this Glyph idea into account, it seems highly likely. Nice work.

if she is then a lot of fans are going to be pissed but i think there is a way to safe her, but at a price.

[boeloe]

Turbo_J wrote...

demersel wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

All of these theories fit with that the Reapers are supposed to be from the Soverign speech in ME1. Not a bunch of space squids that just show up and smash up the joint.

"They are cunning in their deceptions." - Javik, Normandy. 2186

and given that my point follows - reapers can be beaten conventionaly. All-powerfull unstoppable force doesn't use deception. Logic. 

I've always felt this way. I get blasted every time I bring it up, but I won't let insults or fear change who I am.

I've got your back on this one bro.

[masster blaster]

i hope Bioware is look at this and i hope they take this in account about Glyph/Citadle and the whole topic from 1569 too 1571.

Modifié par masster blaster, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:02 .

[Iconoclaste]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

Yes, but if this is the case, then why didn't starchild activate the relay then?? The device that was disabled was a signal reciever for a signal from a reaper to the keepers to activate the relay. And in the Reject ending you see the starchild disabling the crucible, so it can do stuff in the Citadel. So....huh?? Makes no sense. Wouldn't that be a good question to ask the Catalyst in the end??

Well, in the "reject" ending we don't actually "see" the Starchild deactivating the Crucible, and if it is agreed that the Starchild is some kind of representative of the "Reaper Collective", then it could as well be a Reaper outside that disabled the Crucible, maybe the one Shepard sees blowing a ship nearby and moving offscreen on the left. Nevertheless, If it's really the "Starchild" that somehow "pulled the plug" from the Citadel-Crucible "system" that's just that, and it doesn't negate the possibility that the "signaling capability" was still "disabled" from its original purpose. The Protheans didn't uncover all the details of the Reaper's system, and it's conceivabled that the Starchild needed some outside "impulse" to enter in action. He could then have "all powers" over the Citadel, he was just not "aware" of the necessity to make use of those. I suppose it's also a reasonable assumption that the Catalyst entering his "active mode" too soon could have been risky, since he could have been discovered and tampered with before the arrival of the Reaper fleet.

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

*GASP!* AN ANTI TROLL!

I think Hell just froze over.

Be sure to keep it away from any other trolls. If Anti Troll and Troll should ever meet, it would cause a trollsplosion of energy greater than that of the 4Chan!

[BleedingUranium]

Iconoclaste wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

Yes, but if this is the case, then why didn't starchild activate the relay then?? The device that was disabled was a signal reciever for a signal from a reaper to the keepers to activate the relay. And in the Reject ending you see the starchild disabling the crucible, so it can do stuff in the Citadel. So....huh?? Makes no sense. Wouldn't that be a good question to ask the Catalyst in the end??

Well, in the "reject" ending we don't actually "see" the Starchild deactivating the Crucible, and if it is agreed that the Starchild is some kind of representative of the "Reaper Collective", then it could as well be a Reaper outside that disabled the Crucible, maybe the one Shepard sees blowing a ship nearby and moving offscreen on the left. Nevertheless, If it's really the "Starchild" that somehow "pulled the plug" from the Citadel-Crucible "system" that's just that, and it doesn't negate the possibility that the "signaling capability" was still "disabled" from its original purpose. The Protheans didn't uncover all the details of the Reaper's system, and it's conceivabled that the Starchild needed some outside "impulse" to enter in action. He could then have "all powers" over the Citadel, he was just not "aware" of the necessity to make use of those. I suppose it's also a reasonable assumption that the Catalyst entering his "active mode" too soon could have been risky, since he could have been discovered and tampered with before the arrival of the Reaper fleet.

See, more outright speculation is required for the literal ending than IT

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:04 .

[demersel]

masster blaster wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Okay, Book incoming... This is not fully fleshed out so hack away at it and maybe we'll have something coherent.

Thessia: Prothean VI Vendetta.

There is a real problem with this thing right from the start:

Without prompting, this thing knows English. The entire squad could understand it instantly. The only time this happened before was on Ilos, but Vigil was active and studied the Normandy and squad communications and possibly that of Saren's comms before Shep and company found it.

Furthermore, its protocol for displaying virtual 3D information shouldn't be seen as more than static or garble by anyone but Shepard; especially if you have Javik; Shep 'understood' the videos, where as the squad mates only saw static.

The first words our of Shepard's mouth are 'We need answers! We need to know what the catalyst is so we can finish the crucible.'

How does it know what either of these things are without any kind of context? An understanding of the English language is not enough. These words are arbitrary. Even if it is in charge of the construction of the 'device', a VI is not capable of making assumptions and surely would not devulge this information without an identifiable connection; device(whatever they called it)=crucible. It would need to ask for context or clarification before being able to answer the question. Security protocols alone should prevent it from doing so.

When talking about the pattern, Vendetta says "It's possible(that the reapers run the pattern), but 'I' believe the reapers are just servants of the pattern and not it's master."

How can a VI identify itself as 'I' in the context of drawing conclusions. It should have said 'my creator(s)' or 'we' as in the Protheans, or 'research/investigation' concluded that... but not 'I'. Referring to itself in such a manner in the process of expounding a conclusion like this would require it to be self aware; An AI, not a VI.

EDI 'posed' as a VI...

"Wait. You can lie?" When joker removed EDIs shackles, there were no longer any restraints that forced her to be truthful. We don't know if Vendetta has such shackles because there is no real time to investigate and it's assumed it is a VI. Even if it was truthful to the extent of its programming on Thessia, Cronos Station poses even more problems with its trustworthiness given its security was hacked.

Of course we come back to understanding Prothean language and visual data... How does TIM hack this thing at all? How does he then understand Prothean language and visual display without a cipher? If Cerberus can't figure out Javik's stasis pod ending sequence and unlock commands, how can they suddenly copy the VI to an Omni-Tool and hack it.


The main clue to this entire thing... Liara talking to EDI in her cabin.

Liara "If I had been shown the beacon earlier I could have saved my people."

EDI "You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it."

So then how did the squad comprehend it at all?

Two possibilities:

It was hacked before they got there - and not by Cerberus.

It was a shared perception of events; be it hallucination, delusion or real time comprehension of what Shepard was seeing.

It always seemed off to me (speaking the common language, being so willing to help then changing its mind, etc.) but I don't think I've ever thought of it that much. A shared perception of events makes sense, especially with Liara. There seems to be a theory making its rounds that she's been indoctrinated for a while, and if we take this Glyph idea into account, it seems highly likely. Nice work.

if she is then a lot of fans are going to be pissed but i think there is a way to safe her, but at a price.

Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

[Auralius Carolus]

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

I think the VI on Illos is it? explains how the reapers start out from the citadel. Can't remember how far it gets in explaining their tactics. I pretty sure they shut down the Relays from the citadel so everyone becomes isolated and use the information stored on the citadel to exterminate the races. Which makes you wonder how the other races would even be able to attempt to construct the crucible at all.

Yep, Vigil on Ilos explained that the elite forces of the Empire were crushed at the Citadel, then the Reapers locked down the Relays and began to focus on one system at a time.

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

Delay tactic so they could find all the inhabited systems. They did not have Citadel info and probably figured it was a better idea not to go after the Citadel right away wihtout first getting all the races focused on something else.

Unlikely. As the Relays were left to "influence" and entrap later civilizations, their locations would already be known; these would be targetted star clusters. It would simply be a matter of determining which clusters were active and which were not, to show the level of advancement required for harvesting.

As to not knowing the location of the Citadel, even if it had been moved since the last cycle, as the center of galactic civilization, it would be common knowledge; any indoctrinated person could find it on the extranet.

Intead, we have Reapers across all systems, spread out. This is something not reflected by Vigil on Ilos; they were careful to divide the Protheans, then systematically conquer them. This cycle is a strategic mess in comparison.

[Iconoclaste]

BleedingUranium wrote...

See, more outright speculation is required for the literal ending than IT

I will simply point out that this whole argument about what the Catalyst can / cannot do in the end is a bit "outside" of the pure "hallucination" theory, right? Since "It's all a dream", why would you waste any time justifying the Catalyst's capabilities in these sequences?

[Turbo_J]

demersel wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

-snip-

It always seemed off to me (speaking the common language, being so willing to help then changing its mind, etc.) but I don't think I've ever thought of it that much. A shared perception of events makes sense, especially with Liara. There seems to be a theory making its rounds that she's been indoctrinated for a while, and if we take this Glyph idea into account, it seems highly likely. Nice work.

if she is then a lot of fans are going to be pissed but i think there is a way to safe her, but at a price.

Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

I'm a Liaramancer and I both support and endorse the hypothesis that Liara is at least partially indoctrinated. About as much as Shep is, or maybe a little further along. Equatable to the Turian Councilor but for misdirection rather than denial.

[Lokanaiya]

demersel wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

For me it seems strange on how the Reapers decide when to attack each cycle. Is it every 50,000 years on the dot, or is it something else? I think it's the ability to create AI's that starts it, because it can't be advanced tech. The Protheans were way further in technology than this cycle. Speculations??

It could be a combination of key factors, like the ability to make advanced AI, the ability to defeat one or more Reaper conventionally, the simple fact that the Reaper's existence comes to be discovered, etc. Those would point to a sufficient level of tech advancement to justify the "Reaping".

Read the blurb on Trikalon: Athena Nebula, Lalessa system. This is Tech based on Asari and Human engineering and it was treated as a major threat by the Reapers. I've noticed this kind of thing before but so subtly that I've not given it much thought. Reapers really don't like tech that is NOT based on Mass Relay or Reaper technology. Kind of supports my thoughts on the 50K year cycle being purely based on self preservation in relations to galactic civilizations advancing passed Reaper tech, making harvesting at that point much more difficult and costly.

exactly! If you read through the texts on the planets you'll now that reapers generally use precise strikes on the strategic targets - they destroy production, science and mining centers. They are fighting a conventional war using blietzkrieg type tactics...

They also take advantage of the fact that their opponents have something they need to defend, like their homeworld, because they don't fare so well whenever their own massive size is used against them: the Turians and Asari were doing relatively well whenever they engage the Reapers on their own terms, using hit-and-run tactics, and only started to take heavy loses whenever the Reapers got to their homeworld and they had to defend it. Worth remembering.

[RenegonSQ]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

*GASP!* AN ANTI TROLL!

I think Hell just froze over.

Be sure to keep it away from any other trolls. If Anti Troll and Troll should ever meet, it would cause a trollsplosion of energy greater than that of the 4Chan!

I am simply a man with beliefs. Why argue if my opinion shall not
change? The Indoctrination Theory will live on through me. No sarcasm
was intended in this post.

Modifié par RenegonSQ, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .

[demersel]

The thing with the IT and all is that it is the most simple, straight, and elegant explanation, that fits on its own, and with it almost every aspect of the story as a whole start making sense (even the ME2 plotholes, like the ones pointed out by smudboy in "what was the point of mass effect 2"). It all starts to fit into one big picture. Trust me. That never happens on it's own. Stories don't write itself. Stories, especially complex stories, are constructed and carefully crafted.

[Turbo_J]

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

See, more outright speculation is required for the literal ending than IT

I will simply point out that this whole argument about what the Catalyst can / cannot do in the end is a bit "outside" of the pure "hallucination" theory, right? Since "It's all a dream", why would you waste any time justifying the Catalyst's capabilities in these sequences?

I keep trying to bring this up.

Shepard is standing in front of an Indoctrination beacon in London at the end of the run drulling and muttering to themselves until the choice.

Pick where you want the Hallucination to start, but it has to end where blowing something up in destroy actually has an effect... e.g burring him/her under concrete rubble.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .

[Auralius Carolus]

@ Turbo_J: Rebuttal, bottom of page 1570. Read over it and see what you think.

[Nightingale]

demersel wrote...
Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

She would have plot armour regardless. She's required to find the Crucible. Without her, we'd have no direction in ME3. Regardless of whether it's the literal interpretation or not, we still need her. It's just a matter of whether you believe the Crucible is a trap or not. If it is, and she knew, it'd be a great plot twist. Same goes for Glyph merely using her to convey the information to Shepard, and by extension, the Alliance, Council, etc.

[Simon_Says]

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...
Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

She would have plot armour regardless. She's required to find the Crucible. Without her, we'd have no direction in ME3. Regardless of whether it's the literal interpretation or not, we still need her. It's just a matter of whether you believe the Crucible is a trap or not. If it is, and she knew, it'd be a great plot twist. Same goes for Glyph merely using her to convey the information to Shepard, and by extension, the Alliance, Council, etc.

Not to mention that the last face we saw pre-EC was... Liara.

That definitely seemed off.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:18 .

[demersel]

Turbo_J wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

See, more outright speculation is required for the literal ending than IT

I will simply point out that this whole argument about what the Catalyst can / cannot do in the end is a bit "outside" of the pure "hallucination" theory, right? Since "It's all a dream", why would you waste any time justifying the Catalyst's capabilities in these sequences?

I keep trying to bring this up.

Shepard is standing in front of a beacon in London at the end of the run drulling and mittering to themselves until the choice.

Pick where you want the Hallucination to start, but it has to end where blowing something up in destroy actually has an effect... e.g burring him/her under concrete rubble.

There is no catalyst. )))  
By the way - let's think why is it called the catalyst. )))

here's the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalyst 

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

While I can't remember, specifically, I do believe the Citadel was the key to controlling the Relays remotely. Why the Reapers took so long to assault it in this cycle is beyond explanation, unless the Reapers wanted the different societies to work together, for some reason. That reason, most obviously, would be the Crucible.

I believe the delay was due to the protheans disabling the Citadel / keepers signaling capability, the reason why Sovereign tried to take control of the Citadel (and failed).

Yes, but if this is the case, then why didn't starchild activate the relay then?? The device that was disabled was a signal reciever for a signal from a reaper to the keepers to activate the relay. And in the Reject ending you see the starchild disabling the crucible, so it can do stuff in the Citadel. So....huh?? Makes no sense. Wouldn't that be a good question to ask the Catalyst in the end??

Well, in the "reject" ending we don't actually "see" the Starchild deactivating the Crucible, and if it is agreed that the Starchild is some kind of representative of the "Reaper Collective", then it could as well be a Reaper outside that disabled the Crucible, maybe the one Shepard sees blowing a ship nearby and moving offscreen on the left. Nevertheless, If it's really the "Starchild" that somehow "pulled the plug" from the Citadel-Crucible "system" that's just that, and it doesn't negate the possibility that the "signaling capability" was still "disabled" from its original purpose. The Protheans didn't uncover all the details of the Reaper's system, and it's conceivabled that the Starchild needed some outside "impulse" to enter in action. He could then have "all powers" over the Citadel, he was just not "aware" of the necessity to make use of those. I suppose it's also a reasonable assumption that the Catalyst entering his "active mode" too soon could have been risky, since he could have been discovered and tampered with before the arrival of the Reaper fleet.

See, more outright speculation is required for the literal ending than IT

Edit: I got the top of the page again? How many times is that now?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:19 .

[BleedingUranium]

demersel wrote...

The thing with the IT and all is that it is the most simple, straight, and elegant explanation, that fits on its own, and with it almost every aspect of the story as a whole start making sense (even the ME2 plotholes, like the ones pointed out by smudboy in "what was the point of mass effect 2"). It all starts to fit into one big picture. Trust me. That never happens on it's own. Stories don't write itself. Stories, especially complex stories, are constructed and carefully crafted.

Exactly.

[/Anderson]