55528 réponses à ce sujet

[TJBartlemus]

Turbo_J wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

See, more outright speculation is required for the literal ending than IT

I will simply point out that this whole argument about what the Catalyst can / cannot do in the end is a bit "outside" of the pure "hallucination" theory, right? Since "It's all a dream", why would you waste any time justifying the Catalyst's capabilities in these sequences?

I keep trying to bring this up.

Shepard is standing in front of an Indoctrination beacon in London at the end of the run drulling and muttering to themselves until the choice.

Pick where you want the Hallucination to start, but it has to end where blowing something up in destroy actually has an effect... e.g burring him/her under concrete rubble.

It doesn't need to be a dream. The Reapers could be effecting Shepards perceptions, and still have him physically able to be of use to the Reapers. So he physically makes the choice. All the reapers are trying to do is influence him into making a choice favorable to them. Thus the child. A child is more easy to trust than an adult. Proven fact. (BioWare is not letting go of the choices, so we have to adapt to that.)

[WandySilva]

Just played the ending again and I have another interjection about the star child's logic, during his explaination about synthensis, he states that a similar solution had been attempted before but it had failed, to paraphrase "organics were not ready, It is not something that can be forced". This last part is particularly interesting, as choosing synthesis, you are effectively forcing synthesis on all organics (and synthetics for that matter) against their will. Why can shepard force this transformation and make it work, while the reapers cannot? I initially thought that this had something to do with the star child saying that the crucible "changed the variables" but as he stated, this solution can not be forced. If I am missing something or someone with a better understanding of the lore can explain this to me, please do. As it stands, in my mind, this is yet another key piece of evidence for the IT, or it is just another plot hole that needs to be patched.

[BleedingUranium]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

*snip*

Hi! You changed your picture!

[zigamortis]

RenegonSQ wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

I wish it were that simple.

It is that simple, when you believe.

I do believe but it still needs to be proven by bioware before we can declare it true. however as has been stated a multitude of times there is a mountain of evedence.

[BansheeOwnage]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Hey you changed your avatar too. Seems like I started something.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[demersel]

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...
Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

She would have plot armour regardless. She's required to find the Crucible. Without her, we'd have no direction in ME3. Regardless of whether it's the literal interpretation or not, we still need her. It's just a matter of whether you believe the Crucible is a trap or not. If it is, and she knew, it'd be a great plot twist. Same goes for Glyph merely using her to convey the information to Shepard, and by extension, the Alliance, Council, etc.

No, she of course doesn't  know that the crucible is a trap. And by the way she did not find the plans for the crucible. It was glyph. And only glyph. 

[Simon_Says]

demersel wrote...

There is no catalyst. )))  
By the way - let's think why is it called the catalyst. )))

here's the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalyst

I think I came up with a possible explanation for why it's called the 'Catalyst'. Oh, and the followup in case you're interested.

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

*snip*

Hi! You changed your picture!

Yeah. It was actually a lot of work. I don't know why they didn't have a "upload your Shepard" feature for ME3 like they apparently did for Dragon Age. :/

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Hey you changed your avatar. Seems like I started something.

Yeah I was getting annoyed that a lot of people had the same avatar as I did. Then I changed it again cause I realized that it was the same one as Paxxton. 

[BansheeOwnage]

TJBartlemus wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Hey you changed your avatar. Seems like I started something.

Yeah I was getting annoyed that a lot of people had the same avatar as I did. Then I changed it again cause I realized that it was the same one as Paxxton. 

Well I doubt anyone will have mine so

[Turbo_J]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

@ Turbo_J: Rebuttal, bottom of page 1570. Read over it and see what you think.

Good counters. We do have the disadvantage of building upon Reaper tech - being lead around by the nose. Makes it more difficult to identify the real 'rats'.

Still doesn't explain why every Asari every born doesn't have an inherent understanding of Prothean language and data structures if this is where they were getting their 'tech' from. Little inconsistent.

I'll look it over again later and see if there is anything to counter. Most looks solid beyond the Asai 'stupidness'.

[demersel]

zigamortis wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

I wish it were that simple.

It is that simple, when you believe.

I do believe but it still needs to be proven by bioware before we can declare it true. however as has been stated a multitude of times there is a mountain of evedence.

As i recall, the devs and producers scecifically said multiple times that they want everyone to decide what to make of the endings on their own, that it is part of the fun. So as of know this is exactly what we are doing - for me it is all fact, and it is what happened in my game. And right now, there is nothing, NOTHING, that would even hint that i may be wrong. You want space magic, and the catalyst? you can have it, you even given additional closure and context couse you obviously want people to tell you what to think. I want the IT and wonder at the possibilities. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

@ Turbo_J: Rebuttal, bottom of page 1570. Read over it and see what you think.

Good counters. We do have the disadvantage of building upon Reaper tech - being lead around by the nose. Makes it more difficult to identify the real 'rats'.

Still doesn't explain why every Asari every born doesn't have an inherent understanding of Prothean language and data structures if this is where they were getting their 'tech' from. Little inconsistent.

I'll look it over again later and see if there is anything to counter. Most looks solid beyond the Asai 'stupidness'.

Why would they have an understanding of protheans if only high-level officials know about the tech? (I might have missed something here).

[Iconoclaste]

WandySilva wrote...

Just played the ending again and I have another interjection about the star child's logic, during his explaination about synthensis, he states that a similar solution had been attempted before but it had failed, to paraphrase "organics were not ready, It is not something that can be forced". This last part is particularly interesting, as choosing synthesis, you are effectively forcing synthesis on all organics (and synthetics for that matter) against their will. Why can shepard force this transformation and make it work, while the reapers cannot? I initially thought that this had something to do with the star child saying that the crucible "changed the variables" but as he stated, this solution can not be forced. If I am missing something or someone with a better understanding of the lore can explain this to me, please do. As it stands, in my mind, this is yet another key piece of evidence for the IT, or it is just another plot hole that needs to be patched.

Maybe the fact that Shepard is the one that will be "merged" is what makes this attempt "succesfull", since the Catalyst recognizes that Shepard is the first one to have made it "this far". It was discussed on another thread that "this far" might equally point towards a "physical" position on the Citadel as to a "state of readyness". But synthesis is, by all means, still "forced" upon everyone. Bioware tried to make it look like a "good thing", though.

[Nightingale]

demersel wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...
Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

She would have plot armour regardless. She's required to find the Crucible. Without her, we'd have no direction in ME3. Regardless of whether it's the literal interpretation or not, we still need her. It's just a matter of whether you believe the Crucible is a trap or not. If it is, and she knew, it'd be a great plot twist. Same goes for Glyph merely using her to convey the information to Shepard, and by extension, the Alliance, Council, etc.

No, she of course doesn't  know that the crucible is a trap. And by the way she did not find the plans for the crucible. It was glyph. And only glyph. 

And without her, we'd never know what Glyph found. As for her not knowing it was a trap, it would depend if she was indoctrinated in the way we believe Shepard to be, without knowing it, or actually speaking to the Reapers, as Saren did. As I said, there's the idea that she's been indoctrinated from the start. If that's the case, it's not out of the question that she'd be speaking with them. The only outward sign we had that Saren was indoctrinated was the implants (other than being crazy, but I'll overlook that for this explanaition). If the Reapers wanted a good sleeper agent of sorts (ie, Liara) obviously they wouldn't do that.

It's a lot to assume, though.

[BansheeOwnage]

demersel wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is true. That is all I have to say. No explanations from me.

I wish it were that simple.

It is that simple, when you believe.

I do believe but it still needs to be proven by bioware before we can declare it true. however as has been stated a multitude of times there is a mountain of evedence.

As i recall, the devs and producers scecifically said multiple times that they want everyone to decide what to make of the endings on their own, that it is part of the fun. So as of know this is exactly what we are doing - for me it is all fact, and it is what happened in my game. And right now, there is nothing, NOTHING, that would even hint that i may be wrong. You want space magic, and the catalyst? you can have it, you even given additional closure and context couse you obviously want people to tell you what to think. I want the IT and wonder at the possibilities. 

Huh. That's weird. Could've sworn it was all of the fun. I certainly didn't have any in the endings.

[BansheeOwnage]

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...
Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

She would have plot armour regardless. She's required to find the Crucible. Without her, we'd have no direction in ME3. Regardless of whether it's the literal interpretation or not, we still need her. It's just a matter of whether you believe the Crucible is a trap or not. If it is, and she knew, it'd be a great plot twist. Same goes for Glyph merely using her to convey the information to Shepard, and by extension, the Alliance, Council, etc.

No, she of course doesn't  know that the crucible is a trap. And by the way she did not find the plans for the crucible. It was glyph. And only glyph. 

And without her, we'd never know what Glyph found. As for her not knowing it was a trap, it would depend if she was indoctrinated in the way we believe Shepard to be, without knowing it, or actually speaking to the Reapers, as Saren did. As I said, there's the idea that she's been indoctrinated from the start. If that's the case, it's not out of the question that she'd be speaking with them. The only outward sign we had that Saren was indoctrinated was the implants (other than being crazy, but I'll overlook that for this explanaition). If the Reapers wanted a good sleeper agent of sorts (ie, Liara) obviously they wouldn't do that.

It's a lot to assume, though.

I seriously doubt Liara is indoc. I mean if you romance her, wouldn't you be able to tell?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[Auralius Carolus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Why would they have an understanding of protheans if only high-level officials know about the tech? (I might have missed something here).

Who is "they"? And to what phrase are you referencing?

[Auralius Carolus]

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

@ Turbo_J: Rebuttal, bottom of page 1570. Read over it and see what you think.

Good counters. We do have the disadvantage of building upon Reaper tech - being lead around by the nose. Makes it more difficult to identify the real 'rats'.

Still doesn't explain why every Asari every born doesn't have an inherent understanding of Prothean language and data structures if this is where they were getting their 'tech' from. Little inconsistent.

I'll look it over again later and see if there is anything to counter. Most looks solid beyond the Asai 'stupidness'.

"Asari Stupidness"? I don't follow.

[Iconoclaste]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

@ Turbo_J: Rebuttal, bottom of page 1570. Read over it and see what you think.

Good counters. We do have the disadvantage of building upon Reaper tech - being lead around by the nose. Makes it more difficult to identify the real 'rats'.

Still doesn't explain why every Asari every born doesn't have an inherent understanding of Prothean language and data structures if this is where they were getting their 'tech' from. Little inconsistent.

I'll look it over again later and see if there is anything to counter. Most looks solid beyond the Asai 'stupidness'.

Why would they have an understanding of protheans if only high-level officials know about the tech? (I might have missed something here).

A "secret" known by an entire species would not remain a "secret" for very long.

[BansheeOwnage]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Why would they have an understanding of protheans if only high-level officials know about the tech? (I might have missed something here).

Who is "they"? And to what phrase are you referencing?

The Asari. Something about them understanding protheans.

[BansheeOwnage]

Iconoclaste wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

@ Turbo_J: Rebuttal, bottom of page 1570. Read over it and see what you think.

Good counters. We do have the disadvantage of building upon Reaper tech - being lead around by the nose. Makes it more difficult to identify the real 'rats'.

Still doesn't explain why every Asari every born doesn't have an inherent understanding of Prothean language and data structures if this is where they were getting their 'tech' from. Little inconsistent.

I'll look it over again later and see if there is anything to counter. Most looks solid beyond the Asai 'stupidness'.

Why would they have an understanding of protheans if only high-level officials know about the tech? (I might have missed something here).

A "secret" known by an entire species would not remain a "secret" for very long.

That's what I'm saying. Not many Asari new about the prothean tech they use.

[Priss Blackburne]

Synthesis is what the reapers used to control and make Saren obedient and do what they wanted.

Control is what they used to make Illusive Man do what they wanted.

Destroy is what they would use to trick Shepard with, which makes me wonder can we really trust the destroy option. Is it going to do what it's supposed to. Ie break free of indoctrination or destroy the reapers.

Which drives me more nuts thinking I'm missing some option :/

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:37 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

Synthesis is what the reapers used to control and make Saren obedient and do what they wanted.

Control is what they used to make Illusive Man do what they wanted.

Destroy is what they would use to trick Shepard with, which makes me wonder can we really trust the destroy option. Is it going to do what it's supposed to. Ie break free of indoctrination or destroy the reapers.

Well it's the only one with the breath scene. Refuse is now generally viewed as doing nothing/giving up.
Edit: Okay top of page again? Seriously?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:37 .

[Nightingale]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

demersel wrote...
Maybe that is why she has so much plot armor? And the most colorfull introduction? (the whole story mission) - is that in the third game she falls, partly at least, to indoctrination?

She would have plot armour regardless. She's required to find the Crucible. Without her, we'd have no direction in ME3. Regardless of whether it's the literal interpretation or not, we still need her. It's just a matter of whether you believe the Crucible is a trap or not. If it is, and she knew, it'd be a great plot twist. Same goes for Glyph merely using her to convey the information to Shepard, and by extension, the Alliance, Council, etc.

No, she of course doesn't  know that the crucible is a trap. And by the way she did not find the plans for the crucible. It was glyph. And only glyph. 

And without her, we'd never know what Glyph found. As for her not knowing it was a trap, it would depend if she was indoctrinated in the way we believe Shepard to be, without knowing it, or actually speaking to the Reapers, as Saren did. As I said, there's the idea that she's been indoctrinated from the start. If that's the case, it's not out of the question that she'd be speaking with them. The only outward sign we had that Saren was indoctrinated was the implants (other than being crazy, but I'll overlook that for this explanaition). If the Reapers wanted a good sleeper agent of sorts (ie, Liara) obviously they wouldn't do that.

It's a lot to assume, though.

I seriously doubt Liara is indoc. I mean if you romance her, wouldn't you be able to tell?

Not if Shepard is indoctrinated too.