55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Wyatt Shepard]

Look, it's simple and clear I think....the dreams are nothing more than a manifestation of Shep's fears, stress and anxiety over the war. The kid becomes a representation not of guilt pre se but of Shep's fear he cannot win the war. That despite doing everything he can, everyone will burn, and he might not even be able to save himself.

What would have made the connection with the kid more powerful is if Shep had saved the kid from the vent, and personally put the kid on the shuttle, only then to watch it get shot down.

[SubAstris]

niravital wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
Don't you think it is wrong though that BW are just pandering to the mob rather than going with the strength of their convictions and having a DLC that proves IT conclusively?

I think that would be the last ME3 DLC.

SubAstris wrote... 
I'm not scaring he is actually scared of Shepard, just that he doesn't think Shepard can help when there are a load of 2km tall beasts just outside the window destroying everything in sight.

His place has just been blown up, the Reapers are near. He wants to get somewhere where he is safer.

Undoubtedly some of them do have kids. I'm just saying the purpose of the scene is to establish guilt. You can't have a happy ending to his arch. He is destined to die.  

 

This fits perfectly also in IT as it fits outside of it.
It's a matter of opinion, not proof.

I tried to explain why I think the way I do and why I find it supporting the IT.
I understand the counter arguments but this is how I feel.
I hope you understand mine as well now

Yeah I do understand, I just don't like people saying it doesn't make any sense outside of IT

[Rifneno]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Look, it's simple and clear I think....the dreams are nothing more than a manifestation of Shep's fears, stress and anxiety over the war. The kid becomes a representation not of guilt pre se but of Shep's fear he cannot win the war. That despite doing everything he can, everyone will burn, and he might not even be able to save himself.

What would have made the connection with the kid more powerful is if Shep had saved the kid from the vent, and personally put the kid on the shuttle, only then to watch it get shot down.

Because dreams are usually just dreams in fiction.  I know BioWare has never used them to hint at anything sinister going on, like if some wizard stole your soul or if you were the child of the god of murder or if you had some profane connection to a tainted old god or something.

[Silhouett3]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Look, it's simple and clear I think....the dreams are nothing more than a manifestation of Shep's fears, stress and anxiety over the war. The kid becomes a representation not of guilt pre se but of Shep's fear he cannot win the war. That despite doing everything he can, everyone will burn, and he might not even be able to save himself.

What would have made the connection with the kid more powerful is if Shep had saved the kid from the vent, and personally put the kid on the shuttle, only then to watch it get shot down.

So why does in the third dream Shep(the fake one) and the kid smiles at the dreaming Shepard as they get burned? Is that stress or masochism ?

Modifié par Silhouett3, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .

[Humakt83]

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

Modifié par Humakt83, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[paxxton]

OK, so I'm not really up-to-date with the thread these days. What's cooking? I heard that there's something fishy about Glyph?

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:14 .

[Wyatt Shepard]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Look, it's simple and clear I think....the dreams are nothing more than a manifestation of Shep's fears, stress and anxiety over the war. The kid becomes a representation not of guilt pre se but of Shep's fear he cannot win the war. That despite doing everything he can, everyone will burn, and he might not even be able to save himself.

What would have made the connection with the kid more powerful is if Shep had saved the kid from the vent, and personally put the kid on the shuttle, only then to watch it get shot down.

So why does in the third dream Shep(the fake one) and the kid smiles at the dreaming Shepard as they get burned? Is that stress or masochism ?

Both the "other Shep" and the kid appear to smile before they burn, right? I took that to mean this: Shep sees himself finally reach the kid and comfort him and they burn ANYWAY. To me, this is just the final manifestation of Shep's anexity over the idea that he will ultimately fail. In other words, even if he could have somehow reached the kid on earth, it wouldn't have mattered. They kid will die and he will die. 

Remember, the entire series basically pushed hard the idea that the Reapers cannot be defeated in any convential sense. As ME3 goes on, and the captial planets fall, this becomes all the more clear. Shep's private fear is that the Reapers will win and nothing can prevent it.

[Wyatt Shepard]

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian. 

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

[Fingertrip]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian. 

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

Sorry, but there's blatant evidence of actual Reaper communication in the dreams. 

[SubAstris]

Silhouett3 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

In many ways, yes, Shepard's emotion of guilt is irrational, and you should take that up with BW. They said they wanted a more personal Shepard, one who felt real emotion when people died. This is not only shown by the kid but also others who have died (shown by the whispers of Mordin, Ashley etc in your dreams). Because you have to remember that the child is a symbol of all of humanity, and BW have said it themselves. Shepard is meant to be one of the guardians of humanity, and to see it fall, that's a heavy burden for anyone to take.

Admittedly the comparison with Ashley/Kaiden is flawed. Both are soldiers and very well know the risks of being in their situation; the child on the other hand doesn't.

What? The point is the Catalyst, not Shepard. Why do you think it is the form Catalyst took instead of some Reaperish/cuttlefishy thing?

The child is just what Bioware said he is. A face for humanity. He is nothing but something symbiotic and stays symbiotic as dreams went on. Only something symbiotic like that would be a factor to manipulate Shepard in the end. Both the kid's dissappearance in the vent and the Catalyst taking his form are crucial, calculated events to get a desired outcome. A non-personalized entity like him triggers thoughts about the future, not the past. If the child be instead someone personally important to Shepard enough to invade Shep's dreams 3 times, he would cease to be symbiotic and become a person. Sorry, you can't have them both at the same time

I don't know what you mean.
I have to respectably disagree.

[SubAstris]

Fingertrip wrote...

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian. 

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

Sorry, but there's blatant evidence of actual Reaper communication in the dreams. 

Yes, because the Reapers are the ones causing the nightmares

[HellishFiend]

Wyatt Shepard, let's assume you were right for a second. 

First of all, up until now, we have always had control over Shepard's reactions and emotional displays. This is literally the first time that a loss of control of Shepard's emotions has been thematically displayed in the entire trilogy. Now combine that with the fact that the Catalyst deliberately chose to take the form of a child that has proven, beyond your control, to be emotionally debilitating for Shepard.  

I think it would be unwise to so blithely shrug that off. The Catalyst is intentionally manipulating you using your own emotions. What else is he trying to manipulate?

So you see, regardless of whether or not the dreams are just dreams, or indoctrination attempts, they are still damning when combined with the fact that the Catalyst takes the form of that child. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[Leonia]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Remember, the entire series basically pushed hard the idea that the Reapers cannot be defeated in any convential sense. As ME3 goes on, and the captial planets fall, this becomes all the more clear. Shep's private fear is that the Reapers will win and nothing can prevent it.

I'll just add that that fear is vocalised constantly through the game, Shepard's not exactly keeping her thoughts to herself (well, unless the player declines to use those conversation options) so it should be fairly obvious to the player that Shepard is worried and stressed even when she's awake.

[SubAstris]

HellishFiend wrote...

Wyatt Shepard, let's assume you were right for a second. 

First of all, up until now, we have always had control over Shepard's reactions and emotional displays. This is literally the first time that a loss of control of Shepard's emotions has been thematically displayed in the entire trilogy. Now combine that with the fact that the Catalyst deliberately chose to take the form of a child that has proven, beyond your control, to be emotionally debilitating for Shepard.  

I think it would be unwise to so blithely shrug that off. The Catalyst is intentionally manipulating you using your own emotions. What else is he trying to manipulate?

So you see, regardless of whether or not the dreams are just dreams, or indoctrination attempts, they are still damning when combined with the fact that the Catalyst takes the form of that child. 

And BW said before ME3 came out that they wanted a more emotional, personal journey for Shepard compared to other installments. So it's not like it comes out completely out of the blue.

Whether the Catalyst is intentionally manipulating you is up for grabs. It is trying to get your attention and is using something which Shepard would be sympathetic to, but is that really different from a guy going to a job interview with a suit on when he usually dresses casually?

[pseudonymic]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Look, it's simple and clear I think....the dreams are nothing more than a manifestation of Shep's fears, stress and anxiety over the war. The kid becomes a representation not of guilt pre se but of Shep's fear he cannot win the war. That despite doing everything he can, everyone will burn, and he might not even be able to save himself.

What would have made the connection with the kid more powerful is if Shep had saved the kid from the vent, and personally put the kid on the shuttle, only then to watch it get shot down.

So why does in the third dream Shep(the fake one) and the kid smiles at the dreaming Shepard as they get burned? Is that stress or masochism ?

i interpreted that as part of indoctrination... like shepard looking at him/herself and realizing that that's what was happening, and the kid smiling being a sign that no matter what he/she does, the reapers are winning his/her mind. almost as though that's harbinger (or whtever reaper force) infiltrating shepard's dreams and showing that there's no escaping indoctrination.

[Riot86]

Hey guys!

Was kinda busy the last few days...anything new?

Modifié par Riot86, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:39 .

[HellishFiend]

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

[MaximizedAction]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian. 

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

To me the game seems specifically designed to be such that elements like the dreams or the kid cannot be unambiguously interpretated.
If you assume that indoctrinating Shepard (and the player) is Bioware's plan then this is exactly the right way of doing it. Because it would've been absolutely cheap if indoctrination were instantaniously noticable as such ("Shepard is being indoctrinated, press A quick enough to repel it").

To have indoc. as a clever feature of the game, the nature of it demands that it goes unnoticable. Therefore, if you would have signs of indoctrination in places where no other interpretation were possible, then how could you still call it 'manipulation' if you would notice it? And you too absolutely DO have to be manipulated together with Shepard if Bioware truly wants a believable story.

So, of course (if so) the Reapers (and Bioware) would have to plant it in places were Shepard (and you) might confuse them for something else, like feelings of guilt or PTSD.

So, if you want to be sure that no one's playing mindgames with you, you better watch out and keep a critical mind.

[SubAstris]

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

[HellishFiend]

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

 site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true" AND "Dreams" AND "catalyst"
About 2,960 results

Perhaps you should start taking notes?

[MaximizedAction]

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

 site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true" AND "Dreams" AND "catalyst"
About 2,960 results

Perhaps you should start taking notes?

SubAstris is the natural force in this thread that keeps it from going too fast, the friction to our discussions.

[Humakt83]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian. 

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

Oh? I didn't realize squadmates sound like this. Clearly, I haven't been paying attention.

 

Modifié par Humakt83, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:52 .

[SubAstris]

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

 site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true" AND "Dreams" AND "catalyst"
About 2,960 results

Perhaps you should start taking notes?

And thus continues your series of posts that avoid the question

[HellishFiend]

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

 site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true" AND "Dreams" AND "catalyst"
About 2,960 results

Perhaps you should start taking notes?

And thus continues your series of posts that avoid the question

You mean how like your every post in this thread continues your demonstration of the inability to comprehend the answers to those questions?

[Rosewind]

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

 site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true" AND "Dreams" AND "catalyst"
About 2,960 results

Perhaps you should start taking notes?

And thus continues your series of posts that avoid the question

Forgot what the questions ws lol.