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[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Google site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true"
About 15,700 results

SubAstris, you've been around so long and asked the same questions so many times, that at this point, you're just as familiar with these concepts as anyone in this thread. The fact that you're still here asking the same questions does not speak well of you.

LOL, but it doesn't answer me question...

 site:social.bioware.com subastris AND "if IT is true" AND "Dreams" AND "catalyst"
About 2,960 results

Perhaps you should start taking notes?

And thus continues your series of posts that avoid the question

You mean how like your every post in this thread continues your demonstration of the inability to comprehend the answers to those questions?

It is not a thing he can comprehend.   So, what's new?

[Andromidius]

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

I picked up on that line too.

And the answer is 'yes', especially when its caused by ancient technology that is known to create mind-links with the user.

Saren knew that as well, of course.  He merely worded it in a way to sound ridiculous and appeal to the rational and doubtful nature of the councillers.  He had been very careful to avoid leaving physical clues, and if it wasn't for Shepard there would have been no suspitious at all towards him.

[Humakt83]

Dwailing wrote...

It is not a thing he can comprehend.   So, what's new?

Listen to SubAstris. He is indoctrinated!

[Rifneno]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Both the "other Shep" and the kid appear to smile before they burn, right? I took that to mean this: Shep sees himself finally reach the kid and comfort him and they burn ANYWAY. To me, this is just the final manifestation of Shep's anexity over the idea that he will ultimately fail. In other words, even if he could have somehow reached the kid on earth, it wouldn't have mattered. They kid will die and he will die.

Remember, the entire series basically pushed hard the idea that the Reapers cannot be defeated in any convential sense. As ME3 goes on, and the captial planets fall, this becomes all the more clear. Shep's private fear is that the Reapers will win and nothing can prevent it.

This is just getting hard to watch. The straws you literalists try to grasp at... well, at least you're pretending to be a psychologist with the characters and not just when you tell us we're in denial I guess.

Let me think about the BW games, besides ME, I've played and dreams' roles in them.
Baldur's Gate: Nightmares are the result of an outside force (Bhaal's blood).
Baldur's Gate II: Nightmares are the result of an outside force (sociopath wizard stealing your soul).
Dragon Age Origins: Nightmares are the result of an outside force (warden/darkspawn link).
Dragon Age II: No nightmares for main character... nightmares for other characters are, you guessed it, the result of an outside force (Feynriel the dreamwalker).

I am sensing a pattern here.

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian.

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

You can't be serious. Go back and play Arrival again. Kenson's chief symptom of indoctrination during the early stages was nightmares about the Reapers killing friends and loved ones. Sounds familiar?

[HellishFiend]

Rifneno wrote...

You can't be serious. Go back and play Arrival again. Kenson's chief symptom of indoctrination during the early stages was nightmares about the Reapers killing friends and loved ones. Sounds familiar?

Exactly. So many people forget this:

Indoctrination theme in ME1: Subtlety (Benezia, Saren, etc)
Indoctrination theme in ME2: Dreams/Hallucinations (Derelict Reaper, Arrival, etc)

Hmm, wonder if those themes were trying to set anything up for us.

[MaximizedAction]

Rifneno wrote...

You can't be serious. Go back and play Arrival again. Kenson's chief symptom of indoctrination during the early stages was nightmares about the Reapers killing friends and loved ones. Sounds familiar?

Oh, I forgot that line. How interesting...after all, when the timer goes to zero you DO see your friends, and ONLY THEM, being threatned by Harbinger.
This solves the mystery of why no one else is seen in that easter-egg 'critical mission failure'.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[Humakt83]

I had to just give props for Catalyst and Bioware writers:

http://social.biowar...5245/3#12980584

Modifié par Humakt83, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .

[Silhouett3]

SubAstris wrote...

I don't know what you mean.
I have to respectably disagree.

Guilt is about the past, an event that has already experienced. Naturally you can't feel guilty about anything which hasn't happened yet ("anxiety" is the correct notion for negative feelings about something which is yet to happen, like a meeting in the near future).So in order to dreams be products of guilt, that which the kid symbolizes - the humanity- has be to already annihilated in the past.

I'll have to add, dreams about a symbiotic kid is not the expected reaction in the case of anxiety. It is more likely to involve the stressor, so in Shep's case, the Reapers. Anxiety also reduces productivity, focus, creativity, causes muscle weaknesses /fatigue/ bla bla and would drastically effect a front-line soldier.

Sorry for playing the gruff psychiatrist of the thread but it had to happen eventually:innocent:

On the other hand, Bioware carefully introduced the kid without making him a person of interest for Shepard and us. Whenever he is on the screen he is as a random kid. Shepard isn't even given an opportunity to save him. Unlike the hundreds of people Shepard met and got to know personally in the last 3 games, the kid is unique as he is like the only one who stays unnamed and unknown, that is besides the mercs we shoot of course. Bioware surely knows how to trigger emotions of the players and they deliberately didn't want that with the kid. That's exactly why he gets to be the Catalyst. You anti-IT people just fail to explain it : That's the purpose of the dreams sequences; not guilt, not anxiety, not any of the 50 different emotions in the vocabulary. No sir.

Modifié par Silhouett3, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .

[Arashi08]

I think I brought this up once b4, but has anyone considered how the ending shows destroy as the "bad" choice and control as "good" when the dialogue with the destroyer on Rannoch shows these two options as being the opposite on the morality spectrum than the ending? Why does talking about destroying the Reapers get a paragon interrupt while talking about taking control yield a renegade interrupt and yet at the end we are supposed to accept that it is the other way around?

[Turbo_J]

The pattern is repeated in every cycle. Members of a splinter group infiltrated our ranks and tried to convince us that Indoctrination did not exist and that peace with the Reapers was possible. All we needed to do was allow ourselves to be electrocuted or jump into a beam and be vaporized.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

SubAstris wrote...

Whether the Catalyst is intentionally manipulating you is up for grabs. It is trying to get your attention and is using something which Shepard would be sympathetic to, but is that really different from a guy going to a job interview with a suit on when he usually dresses casually?

I'm disappointed that this was your question.
The answer is yes.
The answer is yes because- You know what, this analogy doesn't even work!
You're comparing formal attire for the sake of impressing to an AI somehow knowing about a child that haunts Shepard's dreams and donning it.

[Turbo_J]

To me that child in the dreams always represented a warning. Shep's OOC behavior at the death of a single child was the first red flag for me that bad things were about to happen.

The Reaper horn and beam charge that never fired to draw Shep's attention to it and the kid is a sign of manipulation. I guess it's just not a clear one.

[Schachmatt123]

SubAstris wrote...
Don't you think it is wrong though that BW are just pandering to the mob rather than going with the strength of their convictions and having a DLC that proves IT conclusively?

What's the point in knowing to play an indoctrinated Person? None. People would only pick the correct decision. Unless they're done with releasing single-player DLCs there will be no official explanation from bioware.

Modifié par Schachmatt, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:29 .

[niravital]

Humakt83 wrote...

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Dreams are the best evidence that there is indoctrination going. Oily shadows & strange reaper voices.

They definitely mean something.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

They are NOT strange "reaper" voices. They are the voices of people Shep knows. They are lines from characters going back to ME1. We hear everyone from Legion to Thane to Kiadian. 

As for the shadows....well, one can simply see those as the faceless, uncounted victims of the Reaper invasion that Shep has been unable to save. His fear is that the Reapers will win and he cannot stop them.

Oh? I didn't realize squadmates sound like this. Clearly, I haven't been paying attention.

 

There is this whole thread about trying to hear if something meaningful is said in those whispers.
There are clear Reaper-like sounds, and they get stronger the closer you get to the child.

Personally, could be nothing, but I keep hearing "stop him, quickly" when Shep stands near the child.
If you want a time mark, then 08:01, 08:13, and it keeps repeating.

[Andromidius]

Humakt83 wrote...

I had to just give props for Catalyst and Bioware writers:

http://social.biowar...5245/3#12980584

My mind exploded after the first reason he gave.

I mean, wow.  'Beggers can't be choosers'?  That's his primary argument?

...I think I need to sell that man some magic beans.

[Andromidius]

niravital wrote...

Personally, could be nothing, but I keep hearing "stop him, quickly" when Shep stands near the child.
If you want a time mark, then 08:01, 08:13, and it keeps repeating.

Burrrrrrrrr.  I can't stop hearing that now.

Didn't they tone down the final dream in the EC though?  I'm pretty sure it wasn't quite as... creepy...?  Or was I just not paying attention...

[MaximizedAction]

Andromidius wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

I had to just give props for Catalyst and Bioware writers:

http://social.biowar...5245/3#12980584

My mind exploded after the first reason he gave.

I mean, wow.  'Beggers can't be choosers'?  That's his primary argument?

...I think I need to sell that man some magic beans.

But I think that he's free to trust the Catalyst, as from an in-game perspective, we have no way to judge it.

[niravital]

Andromidius wrote...

niravital wrote...

Personally, could be nothing, but I keep hearing "stop him, quickly" when Shep stands near the child.
If you want a time mark, then 08:01, 08:13, and it keeps repeating.

Burrrrrrrrr.  I can't stop hearing that now.

Didn't they tone down the final dream in the EC though?  I'm pretty sure it wasn't quite as... creepy...?  Or was I just not paying attention...

Never replayed the entire game with EC, so... don't know

[Andromidius]

MaximizedAction wrote...

But I think that he's free to trust the Catalyst, as from an in-game perspective, we have no way to judge it.

Of course.  As much as someone is free to jump under a bus.

Though admittedly trusting the catalyst doesn't cause as much mess.

[MaximizedAction]

Andromidius wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

But I think that he's free to trust the Catalyst, as from an in-game perspective, we have no way to judge it.

Of course.  As much as someone is free to jump under a bus.

Though admittedly trusting the catalyst doesn't cause as much mess.

I lol'd!

Seriously, that's an excellent point. It all comes down to having faith, in either what you believe (what Shep says in Refuse) or in that last instance who claims to be god.

It's completely up to you, the player. That's very subjective, and since this resembles the question of personal faith, the discussions on the BSN tend to resemble arguments between people of different religions.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:49 .

[Humakt83]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

I had to just give props for Catalyst and Bioware writers:

http://social.biowar...5245/3#12980584

My mind exploded after the first reason he gave.

I mean, wow.  'Beggers can't be choosers'?  That's his primary argument?

...I think I need to sell that man some magic beans.

But I think that he's free to trust the Catalyst, as from an in-game perspective, we have no way to judge it.

We should always be wary of the reasons and solutions our enemy offers. There are plenty of reasons why we shouldn't trust Catalyst. Have you seen the one choice?

As for the beggars can't be choosers, it is presented that Shepard is dying and the situation is really desperate. That could be one of the reasons why Shepard is willing to select one of the options Catalyst offers.

Then he runs and jumps to the Synthesis beam like he wasn't hurt at all...

And the beam, it hums, a lot. Like the beam to the Citadel does.

Modifié par Humakt83, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:52 .

[MaximizedAction]

EDIT: nah, I'm tired of arguing for literalists. It's their job to defend their position, not mine.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[paxxton]

I wonder why the thread is moving so slowly today?

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[BansheeOwnage]

HellishFiend wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You can't be serious. Go back and play Arrival again. Kenson's chief symptom of indoctrination during the early stages was nightmares about the Reapers killing friends and loved ones. Sounds familiar?

Exactly. So many people forget this:

Indoctrination theme in ME1: Subtlety (Benezia, Saren, etc)
Indoctrination theme in ME2: Dreams/Hallucinations (Derelict Reaper, Arrival, etc)

Hmm, wonder if those themes were trying to set anything up for us.

Hey what's going on?

Edit: Jesus if I get the top of the page one more time...

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .

[paxxton]

Indoctrination theme in ME3: indoctrination crawls into reality.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:17 .