55528 réponses à ce sujet

[UltimateTobi]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

I have a question about the prothean VI. Wouldn't that alone debunk the whole IT even without the ec dlc? I feel that the only reason theorists could ignore this was because of all the other loopholes. Now that many of them have been addressed, dismissing the VI is absurd.

Also I feel that currently believing that the writers of ME3 after the release of the EC DLC is exactly equal to believing that the thing in the box at the end of 'Seven ' was a ham sandwich, or that Obi Wan Kenobi was meant to be Luke Skywalker come back from the future to guide himself. 

You can believe anything you want if that's how you derive entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with it. But if there can be a "truth" about the structure of a fictional work it is that that which the author intended is the actuality. ME's writers do not intend IT to be the valid end. And avoiding that is insulting to Bioware's credibility. 

In the Prothean cycle it was shown that the VIs weren't competent enough to detect indoctrinated agents, remember? They infiltrated them anyways, so the VIs are not infallible.
And for that, they weren't able to detect fully indoctrinated agents.
And as for IT, Shepard is on his way to be indoctrinated. IT isn't about Shepard being already indoctrinated. The VI detected Kai Leng, true. But Kai Leng is a fully indoctrinated agent.

[Turbo_J]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Unata wrote...

Personally I love this indoctrination theory but I ask myself just when does it actually come into play? There are several moments during the course of the game where Shepard is knocked senseless, heck even at the get-go during the meeting with the defense council, Anderson's voice sounds dream like with the first "Shepard?"

Full on unconsciousness most likely begins at the weirdly unexplained APC crash just before the beam run. And you're right, the Vancouver mission has a lot of similarites with the London mission which supports IT indirectly.

And the minute Shep is knocked across the room at Alliance HQ, the park and kid (who was not there if you look via flycam) disappear.

The kid shows up at the top of an 8 story building a few minutes later, about half a mile from the rooftop the park was supposed to be on.

[BansheeOwnage]

Turbo_J wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Unata wrote...

Personally I love this indoctrination theory but I ask myself just when does it actually come into play? There are several moments during the course of the game where Shepard is knocked senseless, heck even at the get-go during the meeting with the defense council, Anderson's voice sounds dream like with the first "Shepard?"

Full on unconsciousness most likely begins at the weirdly unexplained APC crash just before the beam run. And you're right, the Vancouver mission has a lot of similarites with the London mission which supports IT indirectly.

And the minute Shep is knocked across the room at Alliance HQ, the park and kid (who was not there if you look via flycam) disappear.

The kid shows up at the top of an 8 story building a few minutes later, about half a mile from the rooftop the park was supposed to be on.

I'll be back later, but before I go I'll add to what you've said. Shepard also lands on the only item of significance in her dreams: A bench. Which (correct me if I'm wrong) is also on the rooftop garden. The dream track plays subtly in the background when this happens too. Shepard also "wakes up" after Anderson says "Shepard". Again.
http://social.biowar...2113/blog/4817/

[Andromidius]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
When I think of the quote "Some parts are not ment to be taken literally" or w/e it is, I can't think of what they would mean save the endings. Your thoughts? What else could they mean?

Yep.  The obvious one is the dreams - you can't take them literally because dreams are surreal by their nature.  But many people seem to, thinking 'oh, its just a dream, no big deal'.  But why not only show us those dreams, but also have us play through them?

Because Bioware want to hammer it into our heads that weird things are going on in Shepard's head, and the Reapers are involved.  And it also gives us a foreshadowing of what gameplay during a dream is like...

[byne]

Andromidius wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
When I think of the quote "Some parts are not ment to be taken literally" or w/e it is, I can't think of what they would mean save the endings. Your thoughts? What else could they mean?

Yep.  The obvious one is the dreams - you can't take them literally because dreams are surreal by their nature.  But many people seem to, thinking 'oh, its just a dream, no big deal'.  But why not only show us those dreams, but also have us play through them?

Because Bioware want to hammer it into our heads that weird things are going on in Shepard's head, and the Reapers are involved.  And it also gives us a foreshadowing of what gameplay during a dream is like...

I hate those damned dreams. There should be a way to disable them. The worst one is definitely the third one though, because it randomly pops up in the middle of the romance scene with your LI. I dont want to see the godchild at that point, BioWare.

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...

I hate those damned dreams. There should be a way to disable them. The worst one is definitely the third one though, because it randomly pops up in the middle of the romance scene with your LI. I dont want to see the godchild at that point, BioWare.

They creeped me the hell out.  Was expecting something nasty to happen the first time I played through.

And I was kind of right.  It was foreshadowing Starbinger and Shepard's surrender to indoctrination.

But yeah, since its pretty obvious we can't take dreams literally, it stands to reason they were hinting something else.  Like the endings. 

And with some ironic insane troll logic, if dreams aren't to be taken literally, and the ending shouldn't be taken literally, it means the ending is a dream!

[I_eat_unicorns]

Eryri wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

I have a question about the prothean VI. Wouldn't that alone debunk the whole IT even without the ec dlc? I feel that the only reason theorists could ignore this was because of all the other loopholes. Now that many of them have been addressed, dismissing the VI is absurd.

Also I feel that currently believing that the writers of ME3  after the release of the EC DLC is exactly equal to believing that the thing in the box at the end of 'Seven ' was a ham sandwich, or that Obi Wan Kenobi was meant to be Luke Skywalker come back from the future to guide himself. [/color]

You can believe anything you want if that's how you derive entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with it. But if there can be a "truth" about the structure of a fictional work it is that that which the author intended is the actuality. ME's writers do not intend IT to be the valid end. And avoiding that is insulting to Bioware's credibility. 

The Prothean VI is a valid point, but it has been thoroughly dicussed earlier in the thread. Essentialy the conclusion was that the Prothean VIs couldn't possibly be infallible indoctrination detectors, or their empire would never have been brought down from within by indoctrinated agents. 

Plus Shepard is not fully indoctrinated during the Thessia mission. S/he's in the process of being indoctrinated. Presumably s/he is still under the threshold that would trigger the VI detection system. Indoctrination seems to be a continuum of being more and more sympathetic to the Reapers, rather than a binary condition of being / not being indoctrinated.

No, the VI said so itself that they discovered LATER that the seperatists were indoctrinated. It wouldn't give shepard a clean slate three times. And who said that there has to be a degree of indoctrination? What about melding minds with javik and liara, wouldn't they feel the indoctrination effects?

 

What do you guys think of that?

[Andromidius]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...
What do you guys think of that?

You posted that already.  You got a reply.

And you're using arguments that we dismissed a long time ago too.  The Prothean VI's are fallible, and Shepard isn't indoctrinated yet.

Why do we have to keep explaining this simple concept? 

Being indoctrinated =/= becoming indoctrinated.  Its the same as dying =/= being dead.

[I_eat_unicorns]

Andromidius wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...
What do you guys think of that?

You posted that already.  You got a reply.

And you're using arguments that we dismissed a long time ago too.  The Prothean VI's are fallible, and Shepard isn't indoctrinated yet.

Why do we have to keep explaining this simple concept? 

Being indoctrinated =/= becoming indoctrinated.  Its the same as dying =/= being dead.

You didn't reply addressing that video. I wonder why?

[byne]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...
What do you guys think of that?

You posted that already.  You got a reply.

And you're using arguments that we dismissed a long time ago too.  The Prothean VI's are fallible, and Shepard isn't indoctrinated yet.

Why do we have to keep explaining this simple concept? 

Being indoctrinated =/= becoming indoctrinated.  Its the same as dying =/= being dead.

You didn't reply addressing that video. I wonder why?

You didnt reply addressing his point. I wonder why?

[CoolioThane]

You're not even a good troll.

The video is one person...ONE person who was bought by the shiny shiny NEW FREE STUFF.

He's just proven himself to be indecisive and easily swayed. He doesn't fully review how the IT is strengthened by the EC.

By you posting the vid are you trying to say ALL OF US are wrong because ONE PERSON disagrees? Seems a bit retarded.

[lex0r11]

byne wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...
What do you guys think of that?

You posted that already.  You got a reply.

And you're using arguments that we dismissed a long time ago too.  The Prothean VI's are fallible, and Shepard isn't indoctrinated yet.

Why do we have to keep explaining this simple concept? 

Being indoctrinated =/= becoming indoctrinated.  Its the same as dying =/= being dead.

You didn't reply addressing that video. I wonder why?

You didnt reply addressing his point. I wonder why?

[I_eat_unicorns]

CoolioThane wrote...

You're not even a good troll.

The video is one person...ONE person who was bought by the shiny shiny NEW FREE STUFF.

He's just proven himself to be indecisive and easily swayed. He doesn't fully review how the IT is strengthened by the EC.

By you posting the vid are you trying to say ALL OF US are wrong because ONE PERSON disagrees? Seems a bit retarded.

You just dismissed everything he said and can't address it because you know you can't defend yourself. Angry joe was an avid IT supporter, but even in his review of the ec dlc he says he's wrong. 

Tell me, how did he prove himself to be easily swayed? I think you're just in denial and scared since you attack me by calling me retarded.

[Priss Blackburne]

It's easy for the Prothean VI to sense indoctrination in TIM, Cerberus and kai leng. They have reaper tech embedded into their bodies! I could look at TIM and any cerberus soldier with their reaper tech implants, glowing eyes and reaper blueish veins and come to the conclusion that they are indoctrinated.

[byne]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

You're not even a good troll.

The video is one person...ONE person who was bought by the shiny shiny NEW FREE STUFF.

He's just proven himself to be indecisive and easily swayed. He doesn't fully review how the IT is strengthened by the EC.

By you posting the vid are you trying to say ALL OF US are wrong because ONE PERSON disagrees? Seems a bit retarded.

You just dismissed everything he said and can't address it because you know you can't defend yourself. Angry joe was an avid IT supporter, but even in his review of the ec dlc he says he's wrong. 

Tell me, how did he prove himself to be easily swayed? I think you're just in denial and scared since you attack me by calling me retarded.

Jahn's entire point was "I dont believe BioWare would do that."

We cant defend against someone's opinion. He's entitled to it. We disagree.

[I_eat_unicorns]

byne wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...
What do you guys think of that?

You posted that already.  You got a reply.

And you're using arguments that we dismissed a long time ago too.  The Prothean VI's are fallible, and Shepard isn't indoctrinated yet.

Why do we have to keep explaining this simple concept? 

Being indoctrinated =/= becoming indoctrinated.  Its the same as dying =/= being dead.

You didn't reply addressing that video. I wonder why?

You didnt reply addressing his point. I wonder why?

Because the guy video makes sense and the user is overthinking the conversations with the prothean vi. It's not what the writers intended.

[I_eat_unicorns]

byne wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

You're not even a good troll.

The video is one person...ONE person who was bought by the shiny shiny NEW FREE STUFF.

He's just proven himself to be indecisive and easily swayed. He doesn't fully review how the IT is strengthened by the EC.

By you posting the vid are you trying to say ALL OF US are wrong because ONE PERSON disagrees? Seems a bit retarded.

You just dismissed everything he said and can't address it because you know you can't defend yourself. Angry joe was an avid IT supporter, but even in his review of the ec dlc he says he's wrong. 

Tell me, how did he prove himself to be easily swayed? I think you're just in denial and scared since you attack me by calling me retarded.

Jahn's entire point was "I dont believe BioWare would do that."

We cant defend against someone's opinion. He's entitled to it. We disagree.

But WHY would he say that? Did you not just listen to his support for his own claim?

[CoolioThane]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

You're not even a good troll.

The video is one person...ONE person who was bought by the shiny shiny NEW FREE STUFF.

He's just proven himself to be indecisive and easily swayed. He doesn't fully review how the IT is strengthened by the EC.

By you posting the vid are you trying to say ALL OF US are wrong because ONE PERSON disagrees? Seems a bit retarded.

You just dismissed everything he said and can't address it because you know you can't defend yourself. Angry joe was an avid IT supporter, but even in his review of the ec dlc he says he's wrong. 

Tell me, how did he prove himself to be easily swayed? I think you're just in denial and scared since you attack me by calling me retarded.

No, mate. I said that logic you seem to be using SEEMS retarded

I dismiss everything he said? No, I disagree with him. As do most of us on this thread...else we wouldn't be here.

Angry Joe has been easily swayed as he now dismisses all of the new evidence for IT and the evidence that is STILL IN even after the EC. He says he was wrong, yay, one more person Bioware have indoctrinated. I'd say the EC worked in that respect. 

Sorry you can't see you're under a spell, bro.

[niravital]

Eryri wrote...

byne wrote...

Eryri wrote...

What about everyone else. Would you buy it, or would you be too disappointed that Bioware had no master plan? Or would you be flattered that Bioware did listen to its fans and knew a good idea when it saw one?

The second one.

BioWare claims to listen to fans. If the literal endings were what they intended, and even after basically everyone coming out and hating them, they stick to them, we'll know they were never actually listening.

Me too. In a way I would respect them more if they came out and adopted IT, as it would mean they weren't too proud to admit their mistakes.

I would respect them most if IT is cannon and intended and it'll be free.
It's brilliant and we shouldn't pay extra for the end of the game we already bought.

[Simon_Says]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

But WHY would he say that? Did you not just listen to his support for his own claim?

I like how the unicornivore can't argue for himself. He needs to use a proxy to say things for him.

Not to mention it's just one bloke on YouTube. That's almost like recieving tablets from God Himself, that is.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:46 .

[agmrpink]

This may be old hat, but I haven't had a chance to post until now, so forgive my tardiness.

With respect to Infiltrator Glyph, would EDI have been able to detect some fishy goings on from his end? I'd like to think so, since she seemed to be aware of everything else aboard the Normandy.

That leads me to assume that:
a) He's a friendly
Super, ridiculously, unbelievably sneaky
c) EDI's a devilbot

[Turbo_J]

[quote]I_eat_unicorns wrote...

[quote]byne wrote...

[quote]I_eat_unicorns wrote...

[quote]Andromidius wrote...

[quote]I_eat_unicorns wrote...
What do you guys think of that?
[/quote]

You posted that already.  You got a reply.

And you're using arguments that we dismissed a long time ago too.  The Prothean VI's are fallible, and Shepard isn't indoctrinated yet.

Why do we have to keep explaining this simple concept? 

Being indoctrinated =/= becoming indoctrinated.  Its the same as dying =/= being dead.

[/quote]

You didn't reply addressing that video. I wonder why?[/quote]

You didnt reply addressing his point. I wonder why?

[/quote]

And what if literal interpretation of the ending was not what BioWare intended. What if they thought everyone would 'get' the fact that Shepard's mind was bing assaulted and the Reapers were trying to sway him/her towards their way of thinking... which happens with control and synthesis... What if the EC was to quell anger and provide closure for literalists while sticking to their original game plan; the attempted Indoctrination of Shepard.

I'll say it again: The EC provided closure for many who hated the ending, but focused on literal interpretations without affecting or changing any of the signs, hints, and foreshadowing of Indoctrination.

The Reapers showed the fallen exactly what they wanted to see.

[byne]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

byne wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

You're not even a good troll.

The video is one person...ONE person who was bought by the shiny shiny NEW FREE STUFF.

He's just proven himself to be indecisive and easily swayed. He doesn't fully review how the IT is strengthened by the EC.

By you posting the vid are you trying to say ALL OF US are wrong because ONE PERSON disagrees? Seems a bit retarded.

You just dismissed everything he said and can't address it because you know you can't defend yourself. Angry joe was an avid IT supporter, but even in his review of the ec dlc he says he's wrong. 

Tell me, how did he prove himself to be easily swayed? I think you're just in denial and scared since you attack me by calling me retarded.

Jahn's entire point was "I dont believe BioWare would do that."

We cant defend against someone's opinion. He's entitled to it. We disagree.

But WHY would he say that? Did you not just listen to his support for his own claim?

I did listen to it, and as I said, I disagree with it. Jahns is not the ME god. What he says doesnt become fact.

Arian Dynas had a theory a while back that said the EC wasnt originally planned. They expected the original endings to be good enough to hold us over until the IT DLC came out (which I believe Arian figured would be the very last DLC to be released). The original endings werent good enough to keep us satisfied, so they released the EC to keep us satisfied until the IT DLC was released.

Is that solid proof? No. Is it just as good as saying 'I totally dont think Bioware would do X, so IT must be false.'? Absolutely.

[TJBartlemus]

Simon_Says wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

But WHY would he say that? Did you not just listen to his support for his own claim?

I like how the unicornivore can't argue for himself. He needs to use a proxy to say things for him.

Not to mention it's just one bloke on YouTube. That's almost like recieving tablets from God himself, that is.

What this guy is back?? 

Something I don''t get, is that literalists are so deadset on the idea that there can't be a lose situation in ME3. They had it in ME2, so why drop that now?? Anyway, even if everything is taken at face value then choosing Control/Synthesis is still a loss because you give up all your morals during the game and become a hypocrite. Why face off against TIM to just choose what he was trying to accomplish the whole time?? 

[Priss Blackburne]

Dear god someone posted their opinion on youtube about something. I am obviously totally wrong with my own personal opinion, this person must be right or it would not be important enough to be on youtube! I must rethink my entire existence.

^^^ Sarcasm ^^^ just so there is no miss-understanding
I feel better now