55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Arian Dynas]

I've given an explanation previously, but I'm too tired to explain now.

The short version is :Shepard chooses to be indescisive. He lacks the conviction to follow through with Destroy, but is smart enough not to be seduced by Control or Synthesis.

[Leonia]

Thought the  "So be it!" would have been a big addition to the evidence pile.

Modifié par leonia42, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

Its unclear since the way its handled is almost throwaway. You get the epic Shepard speech, then Starbinger getting angry.

And then it just kind of ends. As if it doesn't matter. You don't really get a proper epilogue, you don't see the desperate last battle. Its like Starbinger's illusion just doesn't care enough to try and create that image - just shows one ship being destroyed and then Shepard looks scared and alone.

And... Yeah. It 'could' become something - but right now we can only really assume Shepard is killed. Maybe DLC will change that, and give Shepard the strength to actually fight back and create his/her own solution.

I thought it was Shepard's mind creating the illusion like it does after Control/Destroy/Synthesis endings

[niravital]

Rosewind wrote...

*Swoon* Military camo is so sexy......

I was in the military for 3.5 years 

[Rosewind]

niravital wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

*Swoon* Military camo is so sexy......

I was in the military for 3.5 years 

*Girly giggle*

[niravital]

So since there's time, for a change, allow me to link two threads I've started.
I'd appreciate that if you'd like to comment, you'll do it here to keep the discussion going.

It might have been posted here before, so ignore if it had...

1. More on how destroy stands out from the crowd and why it's there.

2. Catalyst being lawyered - since this is short(ish), I'll quote it in here:

niravital wrote... 
The catalyst gives Shepard the option to control the Reapers to do with them what he wishes.
But the Reapers are already being controlled by the catalyst.
If Shepard could make the Reapers guardians of the universe, AND it will solve the conflicts which the catalyst is trying to solve, why can't the catalyst act the same?

Why not let Shepard live, and act as guardian himself? He doesn't really need Shepard for this option.
So this is a new conclusion that the catalyst should have come up with by himself, now that he is aware of it.


I imagine the dialogue being somethink like...

Catalyst: "You can control the Reapers, and they will do as you wish"
Shepard: "So I can make them stop killing everyone and just keep the peace?"
Catalyst: "Precisely".
Shepard: "But YOU already control them now, so you could do it too?"
Catalyst:  "Emm... Haven't thought about it this way... I guess... that I could, yes... I think".
Shepard: "Excellent! can you beam me back to my LI and squad?" 

 

Modifié par niravital, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:05 .

[Eryri]

niravital wrote...

snip

2. Catalyst being lawyered - since this is short(ish), I'll quote it in here:

niravital wrote... 
The catalyst gives Shepard the option to control the Reapers to do with them what he wishes.
But the Reapers are already being controlled by the catalyst.
If Shepard could make the Reapers guardians of the universe, AND it will solve the conflicts which the catalyst is trying to solve, why can't the catalyst act the same?

Why not let Shepard live, and act as guardian himself? He doesn't really need Shepard for this option.
So this is a new conclusion that the catalyst should have come up with by himself, now that he is aware of it.


I imagine the dialogue being somethink like...

Catalyst: "You can control the Reapers, and they will do as you wish"
Shepard: "So I can make them stop killing everyone and just keep the peace?"
Catalyst: "Precisely".
Shepard: "But YOU already control them now, so you could do it too?"
Catalyst:  "Emm... Haven't thought about it this way... I guess... that I could, yes... I think".
Shepard: "Excellent! can you beam me back to my LI and squad?" 

 

Yeah, this annoyed me too. Glow Boy admits that his solution is flawed, and that he controls the Reapers. Therefore he could end this nonsense any time he wants to. Instead Shepard has to grab the two electrified joysticks purely for the Catalyst's entertainment?

[Dwailing]

Arian Dynas wrote...

I've given an explanation previously, but I'm too tired to explain now.

The short version is :Shepard chooses to be indescisive. He lacks the conviction to follow through with Destroy, but is smart enough not to be seduced by Control or Synthesis.

I'm still not completely certain where Rejection falls.  I think it's another way to break free, but I'm not sure whether it's better than Destroy.

[Turbo_J]

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Its unclear since the way its handled is almost throwaway. You get the epic Shepard speech, then Starbinger getting angry.

And then it just kind of ends. As if it doesn't matter. You don't really get a proper epilogue, you don't see the desperate last battle. Its like Starbinger's illusion just doesn't care enough to try and create that image - just shows one ship being destroyed and then Shepard looks scared and alone.

And... Yeah. It 'could' become something - but right now we can only really assume Shepard is killed. Maybe DLC will change that, and give Shepard the strength to actually fight back and create his/her own solution.

I thought it was Shepard's mind creating the illusion like it does after Control/Destroy/Synthesis endings

You'll find many seem to mash together linteral interpretation of some events with the Indoctrination interpretation. It's tiering and annoying, but it's their perception, perogative, and opinion, really.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .

[Dwailing]

Rosewind wrote...

niravital wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

*Swoon* Military camo is so sexy......

I was in the military for 3.5 years 

*Girly giggle*

Yeah, well I'm an interdimensional traveler who's saved the world/galaxy/universe more times than I can count.   Plus, I ALSO used to fence.  Wasn't the best (Or even the better. ), but experience counts for something.  Oh, and then there's that business with being a dancer...

Modifié par Dwailing, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:34 .

[masster blaster]

Also The catalyst is still in Control and Synthesis, so if in Synthesis it sees new evolution taking place. Would it start the cycle all over again, or will it tell the Reapers to go find other galaxys to Harvest since they need to eat Organics and Synthetics to survive.

Also in Control the Catalyst is still there, and Shepard becomes a REAPER, not the same as the Catalyst. Also if Shepard is a Reaper the Catalyst Controls Shepard since Shepard is just a Reaper like Bioware said in Control. So if this were all real then Shepard f*** up big time for picking Control and Synthesis.

[Dwailing]

masster blaster wrote...

Also The catalyst is still in Control and Synthesis, so if in Synthesis it sees new evolution taking place. Would it start the cycle all over again, or will it tell the Reapers to go find other galaxys to Harvest since they need to eat Organics and Synthetics to survive.

Also in Control the Catalyst is still there, and Shepard becomes a REAPER, not the same as the Catalyst. Also if Shepard is a Reaper the Catalyst Controls Shepard since Shepard is just a Reaper like Bioware said in Control. So if this were all real then Shepard f*** up big time for picking Control and Synthesis.

I was actually under the impression that in Control, from a face-value interpretation, Shepard replaced the Catalyst.  You know what's weird, though?  Even though the Catalyst says that he doesn't like the idea of being replaced by Shepard, it STILL smiles that evil little smile when you choose Control.

[masster blaster]

Also WHERE is Adams, Chakwas,Donnaly, Gabbie, and the rest of the Normandy crew at Shepard's Memorial at all three endings.

Oh and I forgot Diana Allers. You would think She would be there Recording this.                                                                                                                                                       oh and if this was real then come on people. if bioware did not put this in at the ending then there is something wrong with the endings.

Modifié par masster blaster, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:47 .

[Turbo_J]

Dwailing wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

I've given an explanation previously, but I'm too tired to explain now.

The short version is :Shepard chooses to be indescisive. He lacks the conviction to follow through with Destroy, but is smart enough not to be seduced by Control or Synthesis.

I'm still not completely certain where Rejection falls.  I think it's another way to break free, but I'm not sure whether it's better than Destroy.

I'll eventually put together a quote list from Shepard that exemplifies why this is a bad idea.

Think about it as representations of Spearheads mind.

TIM's option = control = the weakened and perhaps corrupted portion of Shepard's will.

Andersen's option = Destroy = the part of Shepard's mind that is intact and is truly Shepard's choice; it is not influenced by Reaper corruption. This is why Strabinger tried to dissuade Shepard - through TIM and then through direct dialog - from this choice.

Synthesis = Ultimate Reaper goal = Starbinger's most dressed up option.

Reject = Take no action. Just talk big and pout in front of the Indoctrination device until you get forcefully tossed on to a dragons tooth, shot, or are eaten by husks.

Remember, from an Indoctrination perspective Shepard is in London very likely drooling and mumbling to themselves in front of an Indoctrination beacon.

Destroy the beacon, stop the intense signal, temporarily halt the Indoctrination process so your team or field meds can call for evac.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .

[Dwailing]

Turbo_J wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

I've given an explanation previously, but I'm too tired to explain now.

The short version is :Shepard chooses to be indescisive. He lacks the conviction to follow through with Destroy, but is smart enough not to be seduced by Control or Synthesis.

I'm still not completely certain where Rejection falls.  I think it's another way to break free, but I'm not sure whether it's better than Destroy.

I'll eventually put together a quote list from Shepard that exemplifies why this is a bad idea.

Think about it as representations of Spearheads mind.

TIM's option = control = the weakened and perhaps corrupted portion of Shepard's will.

Andersen's option = Destroy = the part of Shepard's mind that is intact and is truly Shepard's choice; it is not influenced by Reaper corruption. This is why Strabinger tried to dissuade Shepard - through TIM and then through direct dialog - from this choice.

Synthesis = Ultimate Reaper goal = Starbinger's most dressed up option.

Reject = Take no action. Just talk big and pout in front of the Indoctrination device until you get forcefully tossed on to a dragons tooth, shot, or are eaten by husks.

Remember, from an Indoctrination perspective Shepard is in London very likely drooling and mumbling to themselves in front of an Indoctrination beacon.

The reason that I view Rejection as another way is this: Destroy, while Starbinger does everything to dissuade you from choosing it short of telling you point blank to NOT do it, is an option it presents.  Rejection is refusing to play its game, saying that you'll find your own way.  Ever see a movie called Wargames?  Here's the scene that this reminds me of: 
 

[niravital]

masster blaster wrote...

Also WHERE is Adams, Chakwas,Donnaly, Gabbie, and the rest of the Normandy crew at Shepard's Memorial at all three endings.

Oh and I forgot Diana Allers. You would think She would be there Recording this.

LI just put Shepard's name on the wall... a tear falls down her cheeck...
She backs away slowly and turn around - a camera is stuck infront her face.

Diana: "Dammit! It was out of focus. do it again, I'm recording!"

[Leonia]

niravital wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also WHERE is Adams, Chakwas,Donnaly, Gabbie, and the rest of the Normandy crew at Shepard's Memorial at all three endings.

Oh and I forgot Diana Allers. You would think She would be there Recording this.

LI just put Shepard's name on the wall... a tear falls down her cheeck...
She backs away slowly and turn around - a camera is stuck infront her face.

Diana: "Dammit! It was out of focus. do it again, I'm recording!"

Heh, can only imagine Garrus' reaction here..

[Dwailing]

leonia42 wrote...

niravital wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also WHERE is Adams, Chakwas,Donnaly, Gabbie, and the rest of the Normandy crew at Shepard's Memorial at all three endings.

Oh and I forgot Diana Allers. You would think She would be there Recording this.

LI just put Shepard's name on the wall... a tear falls down her cheeck...
She backs away slowly and turn around - a camera is stuck infront her face.

Diana: "Dammit! It was out of focus. do it again, I'm recording!"

Heh, can only imagine Garrus' reaction here..

I've had enough of your *insert reporter punching one liner here*!

Modifié par Dwailing, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:51 .

[Turbo_J]

Dwailing wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

I'll eventually put together a quote list from Shepard that exemplifies why this is a bad idea.

Think about it as representations of Spearheads mind.

TIM's option = control = the weakened and perhaps corrupted portion of Shepard's will.

Andersen's option = Destroy = the part of Shepard's mind that is intact and is truly Shepard's choice; it is not influenced by Reaper corruption. This is why Strabinger tried to dissuade Shepard - through TIM and then through direct dialog - from this choice.

Synthesis = Ultimate Reaper goal = Starbinger's most dressed up option.

Reject = Take no action. Just talk big and pout in front of the Indoctrination device until you get forcefully tossed on to a dragons tooth, shot, or are eaten by husks.

Remember, from an Indoctrination perspective Shepard is in London very likely drooling and mumbling to themselves in front of an Indoctrination beacon.

The reason that I view Rejection as another way is this: Destroy, while Starbinger does everything to dissuade you from choosing it short of telling you point blank to NOT do it, is an option it presents.  Rejection is refusing to play its game, saying that you'll find your own way.  Ever see a movie called Wargames?  Here's the scene that this reminds me of: 
 

From the Edit to my original reply...

Destroy the beacon, stop the intense signal, temporarily halt the
Indoctrination process so your team or field meds can call for evac.

I understand what you are saying, but part of Shepard's subconscious is still influencing the choices being presented. The logical one is Destroy. This is backed up by a low EMS  control only if Shep saved the Collector base. It's what he himself wanted, even if on a subconscious level.

[Dwailing]

Turbo_J wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

I'll eventually put together a quote list from Shepard that exemplifies why this is a bad idea.

Think about it as representations of Spearheads mind.

TIM's option = control = the weakened and perhaps corrupted portion of Shepard's will.

Andersen's option = Destroy = the part of Shepard's mind that is intact and is truly Shepard's choice; it is not influenced by Reaper corruption. This is why Strabinger tried to dissuade Shepard - through TIM and then through direct dialog - from this choice.

Synthesis = Ultimate Reaper goal = Starbinger's most dressed up option.

Reject = Take no action. Just talk big and pout in front of the Indoctrination device until you get forcefully tossed on to a dragons tooth, shot, or are eaten by husks.

Remember, from an Indoctrination perspective Shepard is in London very likely drooling and mumbling to themselves in front of an Indoctrination beacon.

The reason that I view Rejection as another way is this: Destroy, while Starbinger does everything to dissuade you from choosing it short of telling you point blank to NOT do it, is an option it presents.  Rejection is refusing to play its game, saying that you'll find your own way.  Ever see a movie called Wargames?  Here's the scene that this reminds me of: 
 

From the Edit to my original reply...

Destroy the beacon, stop the intense signal, temporarily halt the
Indoctrination process so your team or field meds can call for evac.

I understand what you are saying, but part of Shepard's subconscious is still influencing the choices being presented. The logical one is Destroy. This is backed up by a low EMS  control only if Shep saved the Collector base. It's what he himself wanted, even if on a subconscious level.

Ah, you're working off of Arian's Hypothesis/Theory that Shepard is actually doing something to affect the world around him because it's more of an actual hallucination rather than a hallucination dream.  But I'm working off the theory that Shepard is buried in rubble somewhere completely unconscious.  That would explain our differing opinions on the matter.

Modifié par Dwailing, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:55 .

[masster blaster]

But guys seriusly the others are not present at the Memorial scene and yes I know it's not real since Shepardis being Indoc, but Chakwas,Adams,Donnaly,Gabbie,Allers,and the rest of the crew should be there.

[Turbo_J]

Dwailing wrote...

Ah, you're working off of Arian's Hypothesis/Theory that Shepard is actually doing something to affect the world around him because it's more of an actual hallucination rather than a hallucination dream.  But I'm working off the theory that Shepard is buried in rubble somewhere completely unconscious.  That would explain our differing opinions on the matter.

Save for the fact that I've never read Arian's Theory and this has been my own for some time, yes. That would explain it.

[Dwailing]

masster blaster wrote...

But guys seriusly the others are not present at the Memorial scene and yes I know it's not real since Shepardis being Indoc, but Chakwas,Adams,Donnaly,Gabbie,Allers,and the rest of the crew should be there.

I know, it's pretty weird.  You'd think that the WHOLE crew would be there.

[Dwailing]

Turbo_J wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Ah, you're working off of Arian's Hypothesis/Theory that Shepard is actually doing something to affect the world around him because it's more of an actual hallucination rather than a hallucination dream.  But I'm working off the theory that Shepard is buried in rubble somewhere completely unconscious.  That would explain our differing opinions on the matter.

Save for the fact that I've never read Arian's Theory and this has been my own for some time, yes. That would explain it.

LOL, you haven't read his ending script?  This is blasphemy!  You must do so immediately! http://social.biowar.../index/12095313 

[Leonia]

Dwailing wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

But
guys seriusly the others are not present at the Memorial scene and yes I
know it's not real since Shepardis being Indoc, but
Chakwas,Adams,Donnaly,Gabbie,Allers,and the rest of the crew should be
there.

I know, it's pretty weird.  You'd think that the WHOLE crew would be there.

I'm not sure if they could render that many character models in a single cut scene, that or the memorial scene was intended to be "squad-only" because they were the closest to Shepard.

Modifié par leonia42, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .