55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Iucounou]

Simon_Says wrote...

As for the child. Explain to us how it could have acquired this image of the child and know that it was emotionially significant for Shepard?

There's no way Star Jar could have known about the child unless it had a way of looking inside Shepard's head or accessing his thoughts/emotions somehow.

[Either.Ardrey]

I've just been listening to the EC sountrack on repeat for a while now, and I noticed that the Control ending song sound ominous/sinister. Is it just me, or is that a hint that there's something wrong.

Also, Synthesis sounds a lot like the Galaxy map music in ME1 or 2 (can't remember which).

An End Once and for All EC Cut is definitely my favorite of them. I love the changes they made. Whenever I listen to a score, my brain tends to come up with cinematic imagery, and this was no exception. It inspired the visual cinematographic sequence of one of my story/art ideas I've been doing personal art for. Great song.

[masster blaster]

Plfranke I know right. Weaver was suppost to start the rebellions again, but WT* happened to that in destroy? Also didn't the catalyst say that soon your children will create synthetics and the cycle will start again.

In destroy ending. No Synthetics ebing created at all, or not even a little scene at all for future when Synthetics and Organics fight with each other again.

[paxxton]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

I've just been listening to the EC sountrack on repeat for a while now, and I noticed that the Control ending song sound ominous/sinister. Is it just me, or is that a hint that there's something wrong.

Also, Synthesis sounds a lot like the Galaxy map music in ME1 or 2 (can't remember which).

An End Once and for All EC Cut is definitely my favorite of them. I love the changes they made. Whenever I listen to a score, my brain tends to come up with cinematic imagery, and this was no exception. It inspired the visual cinematographic sequence of one of my story/art ideas I've been doing personal art for. Great song.

Control sounds like there's power in it. You are now in control of the greatest piece of technology in the Universe!
 
Galaxy Map music -> Uncharted Worlds.
 
My favorites are Control, Synthesis and Catalyst. For the win!

Modifié par paxxton, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:23 .

[Legion of 1337]

Iucounou wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

As for the child. Explain to us how it could have acquired this image of the child and know that it was emotionially significant for Shepard?

There's no way Star Jar could have known about the child unless it had a way of looking inside Shepard's head or accessing his thoughts/emotions somehow.

Even if he could, he doe snot have enough time ot actually indoctrinate Shepard. Indoctriation takes time, but Shepard destroys half the Reapers he comes across. Any indoctrination would have to start when Shepard enters the Citadel. We know it takes days or weeks for the average mind to become indoctrinated - and Shepard is far more strongly willed than most. There is nowhere near enough time for him to be indoctrinated to the point where, as I said, he can't tell Reality from a Dream, though certainly enough for the Catalyst to poke around in his head to figure out how it could manipulate him. But since the Catalyst doesn't actually succeed in manipulating Shepard  unless he chooses Synthesis, it's clear this manipulation is simply an act put on by the Catalyst, not indoctrination.

[masster blaster]

Legionread pifrankes last text on the last page and tell me that is not right at all.

[Either.Ardrey]

paxxton wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

I've just been listening to the EC sountrack on repeat for a while now, and I noticed that the Control ending song sound ominous/sinister. Is it just me, or is that a hint that there's something wrong.

Also, Synthesis sounds a lot like the Galaxy map music in ME1 or 2 (can't remember which).

An End Once and for All EC Cut is definitely my favorite of them. I love the changes they made. Whenever I listen to a score, my brain tends to come up with cinematic imagery, and this was no exception. It inspired the visual cinematographic sequence of one of my story/art ideas I've been doing personal art for. Great song.

Control sounds like there's power in it.
 
Galaxy Map music -> Uncharted Worlds.
 
My favorites are Control, Synthesis and Catalyst. For the win!

Control (I Will Watch Over The Ones Who Live On) is awesome, too. Probably my second favorite of the EC soundtrack. My favorite out of ALL the music, though, is Leaving Earth.

[Either.Ardrey]

masster blaster wrote...

Legionread pifrankes last text on the last page and tell me that is not right at all.

And Simon's

[paxxton]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

I've just been listening to the EC sountrack on repeat for a while now, and I noticed that the Control ending song sound ominous/sinister. Is it just me, or is that a hint that there's something wrong.

Also, Synthesis sounds a lot like the Galaxy map music in ME1 or 2 (can't remember which).

An End Once and for All EC Cut is definitely my favorite of them. I love the changes they made. Whenever I listen to a score, my brain tends to come up with cinematic imagery, and this was no exception. It inspired the visual cinematographic sequence of one of my story/art ideas I've been doing personal art for. Great song.

Control sounds like there's power in it.
 
Galaxy Map music -> Uncharted Worlds.
 
My favorites are Control, Synthesis and Catalyst. For the win!

Control (I Will Watch Over The Ones Who Live On) is awesome, too. Probably my second favorite of the EC soundtrack. My favorite out of ALL the music, though, is Leaving Earth.

Mars has nice motifs too. Many other are awesome. LOL. It's hard to choose the best ones.

[Priss Blackburne]

He's not fully indoctrinated yet your fighting indoctrination. The whole crucible area is things pulled from Shepard's memory from the collectors ship to the shadow brokers ship.

http://images.wikia....oker_Engine.png

http://www.mobygames...ip-s-hull-s.png

there are things subtly hidden that are screaming that something is not right with this picture.

[jgibson14352]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Iucounou wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

As for the child. Explain to us how it could have acquired this image of the child and know that it was emotionially significant for Shepard?

There's no way Star Jar could have known about the child unless it had a way of looking inside Shepard's head or accessing his thoughts/emotions somehow.

Even if he could, he doe snot have enough time ot actually indoctrinate Shepard. Indoctriation takes time, but Shepard destroys half the Reapers he comes across. Any indoctrination would have to start when Shepard enters the Citadel. We know it takes days or weeks for the average mind to become indoctrinated - and Shepard is far more strongly willed than most. There is nowhere near enough time for him to be indoctrinated to the point where, as I said, he can't tell Reality from a Dream, though certainly enough for the Catalyst to poke around in his head to figure out how it could manipulate him. But since the Catalyst doesn't actually succeed in manipulating Shepard  unless he chooses Synthesis, it's clear this manipulation is simply an act put on by the Catalyst, not indoctrination.

every troll flat out ignores this evidence, watch him do the same;
in the arrival dlc, shepards mind was affected by the reaper artifact Object Rho. after that he was passed out FOR TWO FRIGGEN DAYS while indoctrinated scientests did who knows what to him. i highly doubt they did nothing, and i think we can all agree they didnt draw on his face with markers and take funny pictures.

[robdunnhill]

LOW EMS CONTROL ENDING:



anyone notice how aggressive the starkid seems than usual? not directly related but thought it was interesting. he starts off with "Why are you here?" rather than wake up to point out a few differences, anyone find this interesting?

[CoolioThane]

SubAstris wrote...


But now BW have changed that, you don't have to accept any option; it is an obvious clue that Shepard is indeed his right-minded, inquistive self. And so IT can die

Just bugger off then?

If IT can die, you don't need to be here.

[masster blaster]

Paxxton. It's An End once and for all for me since, somebody made on youtube, where you see everyones picture that could have died and with the full song with it to.

[Iucounou]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Iucounou wrote...

There's no way Star Jar could have known about the child unless it had a way of looking inside Shepard's head or accessing his thoughts/emotions somehow.

Even if he could, he doe snot have enough time ot actually indoctrinate Shepard. Indoctriation takes time, but Shepard destroys half the Reapers he comes across. Any indoctrination would have to start when Shepard enters the Citadel. We know it takes days or weeks for the average mind to become indoctrinated - and Shepard is far more strongly willed than most. There is nowhere near enough time for him to be indoctrinated to the point where, as I said, he can't tell Reality from a Dream, though certainly enough for the Catalyst to poke around in his head to figure out how it could manipulate him. But since the Catalyst doesn't actually succeed in manipulating Shepard  unless he chooses Synthesis, it's clear this manipulation is simply an act put on by the Catalyst, not indoctrination.

You are focussing on Star Jar as the point of indoctrination. He is not. Shepard has been slowly undergoing indoctrination for a long time. I made the above comment to point out that Star Jar could not have known about the child without access to Shep's thoughts. But IT suggests that Star Jar himself is not real, just a part of the final attempt to fully indoctrinate Shepard.

[MaximizedAction]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

I've just been listening to the EC sountrack on repeat for a while now, and I noticed that the Control ending song sound ominous/sinister. Is it just me, or is that a hint that there's something wrong.

Also, Synthesis sounds a lot like the Galaxy map music in ME1 or 2 (can't remember which).

An End Once and for All EC Cut is definitely my favorite of them. I love the changes they made. Whenever I listen to a score, my brain tends to come up with cinematic imagery, and this was no exception. It inspired the visual cinematographic sequence of one of my story/art ideas I've been doing personal art for. Great song.

To me the Control theme sounds a lot like the Saren theme from ME1. And even though, from an IT point of view, Synthesis is more based on Saren's goals, the Control theme sounding the way it sounds shows me that with that choice Shepard really gave in into the Reapers (which is not a bad thing within a literal interpretation). So the theme fits that.

And it's interesting that Synthesis sounds like a galaxy map theme. It not only accompanies the vast galactic effects of the choice itself, but also, on a smaller level, how EDI(/Normandy) is someone who's central to this choice. If you encouraged her, she chose to aim for the goal of understand organics. And by choosing Synthesis you allowed not only her, but every Synthetic to achieve that. And since the galaxy map tune is pretty much the associating theme for Normandy, I think it fits.

And I find "We Fought As A United Galaxy" to be very beautiful.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:33 .

[masster blaster]

CoolioThane subarts is just speaking whats on his mind, and he has been a help once and a while, so he is not all that bad.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .

[Simon_Says]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Iucounou wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

As for the child. Explain to us how it could have acquired this image of the child and know that it was emotionially significant for Shepard?

There's no way Star Jar could have known about the child unless it had a way of looking inside Shepard's head or accessing his thoughts/emotions somehow.

Even if he could, he doe snot have enough time ot actually indoctrinate Shepard. Indoctriation takes time, but Shepard destroys half the Reapers he comes across. Any indoctrination would have to start when Shepard enters the Citadel. We know it takes days or weeks for the average mind to become indoctrinated - and Shepard is far more strongly willed than most. There is nowhere near enough time for him to be indoctrinated to the point where, as I said, he can't tell Reality from a Dream, though certainly enough for the Catalyst to poke around in his head to figure out how it could manipulate him. But since the Catalyst doesn't actually succeed in manipulating Shepard  unless he chooses Synthesis, it's clear this manipulation is simply an act put on by the Catalyst, not indoctrination.

Shepard spent time in Saren's base in ME1. There were indoctrinated people there. Shepard spent significant time in a derelict reaper in ME2. There were indoctrinated people there. Shepard spent two days in a coma during the events of Arrival, parked right next to a reaper artifact. And yes, you guessed it, there were indoctrinated people there.

Not to mention that even if Shepard destroyed numerous reapers in the course of the series, they still spent a lot of time around them to begin with. Standing right under one in the finale of ME1. Exploring one in ME2 and blowing another back to hell (TIM's indoctrination in ME3 was certainly caused by having the protoreaper parked next to his office. So yes, the protoreaper was an indoctrinating factor.) Numerous reapers in both the beginning and end of ME3, not to mention close proximity to two destroyers on Tuchanka and Rannoch, and not-so-close proximity to other reapers on Palaven's moon and Thessia.

And that's all just before getting into the sidequest stuff. The biggest question then is how could Shepard not be indoctrinated to some degree. Even the strongest of wills has its limits.

Not to mention that people, actual players who shared Shepard's journey since the beginning, gladly chose Control or Synthesis themselves. Despite these options being the complete antithesis of the goal that had dominated the entire series up till that point. Despite these options being at best morally and ethically ambiguous. And despite these options being advocated by two major villains in the franchise.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

jgibson14352 wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Even if he could, he doe snot have enough time ot actually indoctrinate Shepard. Indoctriation takes time, but Shepard destroys half the Reapers he comes across. Any indoctrination would have to start when Shepard enters the Citadel. We know it takes days or weeks for the average mind to become indoctrinated - and Shepard is far more strongly willed than most. There is nowhere near enough time for him to be indoctrinated to the point where, as I said, he can't tell Reality from a Dream, though certainly enough for the Catalyst to poke around in his head to figure out how it could manipulate him. But since the Catalyst doesn't actually succeed in manipulating Shepard  unless he chooses Synthesis, it's clear this manipulation is simply an act put on by the Catalyst, not indoctrination.

every troll flat out ignores this evidence, watch him do the same;
in the arrival dlc, shepards mind was affected by the reaper artifact Object Rho. after that he was passed out FOR TWO FRIGGEN DAYS while indoctrinated scientests did who knows what to him. i highly doubt they did nothing, and i think we can all agree they didnt draw on his face with markers and take funny pictures.

Edit: Looks like Simon Ninjaed me . Oh well i will leave it here in case we bring up some different points.

And that is just the tip of the Iceberg.

Shepard has been inside a "dead" Reaper (dead gods dream), fought through a Collector Ship and their base to finally stand face to face with a Proto Reaper. Beyond that several side missions, like the one in the mine, brought Shepard into close proximity to Reaper artifacts, even Reaper artifacts known to be Indoctrination and husk devices.

That was just Mass Effect 2.

Add Mass Effect 1 with one live Reaper and investigation of an Indoctrination facility (Virmire) and then move on to ME3 with several close encounters with Reapers and their troops, as well as artifacts and what not.

Shepard has had more exposure to Reaper tech than most people in the galaxy. In fact people with less contact than him succumb to Indoctrination during the events of ME3.

That Asari from Saren´s base on Virmire who you can let go? She succumbs to Indoctrination and kills several other Asari. The only exposure we know of with her was side effects from Saren´s base since she was never directly the victim and she seemed quite fine when we met her in ME2.

So no one should even start on that Shepard has not had enough exposure, if anything it is a testament to his mental strength that he has not succumbed long ago.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .

[CoolioThane]

masster blaster wrote...

CoolioThane subarts is just speaking wjat's on jis mind, and he has been a help once and a while, so he is not all that bad.

He's passive-aggressive and goddamn annoying.

Yes, he wants IT to die, don't keep telling us why we are all wrong, when he's just stirring **** up

[Legion of 1337]

Simon_Says wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Hallucinations tend to be less real-looking. Here there are no fuzzy images, no apparitions, no suggestive whispering, no confusion - everything looks real, looks as it should look. You can clearly see what is going on. The Catalyst is not a hallucination - it is attempting to influence you with a child hollogram, you can see this if you chose Refuse, where it's voice suddenly turns deep and sinister. 

Most of all though, EC shows us what happens aftewards. Not only that, but through the viewpoint of another character. It even shows us what other characters do afterwards. Are we supposed to believe all those events were made up? To what end? If IT were true then picking Destroy should snap Shepard out of it - but he doesn't "wake up" from anything.

And your experience with hallucinations is what, exactly? Last time I checked, my schizophrenic aunt has hallucinations that appear perfectly real to her. That's why they frighten her so. And even then, even if we accept your ideas. Fuzzy images/apparitions: Starbrat, London's background. Suggestive whispering: dreams. Confusion, hell yes we were confused.

Your schizophrenic aunt has no weight on this arguement; this is the internet, you cannot prove/disprove ideas on personnal experience because you and I have no idea what each other have actually seen, nor will we ever know because it is not possible to know whether the other person is lying or not.

I will explain the Catalyst in the next response. The dreams Shepard has are due to emotional trauma - the Reapers cannot cause them because he is not near them.

As for the child. Explain to us how it could have acquired this image of the child and know that it was emotionially significant for Shepard? Exactly. IT or no, something weird is going on in Shepard's head in the finale and the Starbrat's image is proof positive of that.

Since the Catalyst is the Reaper's "director" so to speak, it would make sense that he can read your midn to an extent - Sovereign did this when you talked to him. But reading your mind does not equal indoctrination - indoctrination takes time, time the Catalyst would not have. He reads Shepard's mind because he needs a way to persuade Shepard to enact Synthesis. He needs to appear as something emotionally attaching, comforting, something not intimidating, something that will not alarm or concern him. The kid is perfect.

"If IT were true then picking Destroy should snap Shepard out of it - but he doesn't "wake up" from anything." What do you think we think the breath scene is, then?

As for the epilogues, they are till a matter of debate here. By no means is IT a complete theory*. A lot of folks think that the epilogue is a hallucination that reflects how Saren and TIM kept banging on about the glorious futures they were striving towards. Other folks such as myself think that it's not part of the hallucination, but that Control and Synthesis suggest things that are worrying (Shepard change of character in control, the way EDI's monologue sounds like typical indoctrinated propaganda).

I agree. Control  allows the Reapers to stick around - it is possible for them to corrupt Shepard's thoughts. Synthesis is basically the result the Catalyst wanted. 

Also, please get it out of your head that IT is all about whether Bioware intended it to be canon. Yes there are discussions here about that but ultimately IT is about an interpretation of ME3's storyline. If "IT is not true, period" then there would be no reason for Bioware to not go ahead and strike it down in an official statement. Instead, Bioware has said that the endings are left for interpretation and that some elements are meant to be non-literal. Someone find the link where they said that, because I know for a fact they said that. They even linked us when they said it.

That's not to say IT is capital-C canon. As the series stands right now it isn't. But don't make bold proclamations you don't have any real authority to proclamate.

Final thought: EC still doesn't indicate in anyway that Shepard was indocrinated. We do not see him whole-heartedly agree with the Catalyst, and indeed, he can defy the Catalyst and simply blow them all to hell (Destroy). If he were indocrinated, especially to the point that the vision seemed real, he would not have any choice, he would have picked Synthesis.

*That's right. It's not complete. This thread is more than just us congratulating ourselves. We're still unsure of several things. There are multiple possibilities, and few definite answers.

[masster blaster]

As have many others CoolioThane but he has supported IT, but is not sure what to think about IT since the EC to some people makes sense.

[MegumiAzusa]

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Usually it's if you don't want other people to read or comment, don't post.

Why don't you show me how it's done and stop posting?

I'm not the one complaining about people reading my posts.

[Simon_Says]

Legion, I think you missed a basic point about how indoctrination works. It's not exactly mind control. It's inception. The reapers worm their way into your head, and twist your beliefs and goals until your mind matches their agenda.

"Indoctrination doesn't make you do terrible things. It makes you want to do them."

What the reapers directly controlled were husks. Not indoctrinated subjects.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:49 .

[Rifneno]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Oh come on now - if no one argueed with you you'd all jsut sit here going 

"I think this proves IT"
"I agree"
"I agree too!"
"OMG we're so smart"
"We're all right"
"I love IT" 
"I love IT too"

etc.

A bunch of like-mided people sitting around telling each other they're right isn't interesting conversation.

You're right.  But this isn't either.  I mean no offense when I say this because you don't seem to be trolling us like most who come in here and proclaim IT dead, but you really don't seem to know a lot about the subject.  For example you said Shepard must be on the Citadel because atmospheric re-entry would kill him (and that's putting it mildly).  We're not suggesting he survived re-entry, we're suggesting he never physically left Earth in the first place.  Everything after Harbinger playing Space Invaders at the conduit was a virtual reality.

Which is another thing... you said the ending doesn't have the signs typically associated with hallucinations.  No, and neither does the geth server mission.  Both are the same principle: Shepard's mind is in a virtual world of synthetic creation.  Except the Reapers are much better at it than the geth.  There are still some tell-tale signs though.  In the geth server mission, Legion tells Shepard that his mind perceives their virtual world as something familiar.  But the geth server didn't look anything familiar to anyone.  It was trippy as hell.  However look at the zones in the ending.  The first room on the Citadel is very reminiscent of the Collector ship.  The second is very reminiscent of the Shadow Broker's ship (particularly the engine room with all the sliding panels).  The room with TIM and Anderson arguing is laid out like TIM's room on Cronos Station.  The Catalyst's area looks a lot like the conduit run only a few minutes earlier.  The beam is even exactly the same.  All these areas bear great resemblance to things that are familiar to Shepard.

But eh, I'm sure we'll just get more of the standard "plot holes don't prove IT".