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[SubAstris]

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The point, if the Catalyst is meant to be 100% correct, then we might as well let the Reapers win. The fact that he is not totally logical should be reassurance, otherwise you have played through hundreds of hours of gameplay to stop the very thing you now happen to agree with.

No. You're talking about him having reached an invalid logical conclusion. Something he believes to be true but isn't. That's not the issue. The issue is that he's lying and he knows he's lying. He claims to be basically the "boss" Reaper mind, something which has never been hinted at even existing and contradicts things we've seen and heard in the past. From both a story perspective and a logical perspective, that's highly unlikely. He claims the Reapers aren't malevolent, they just do what they believe to be necessary. Arian and I covered this pretty well a week or so ago and all evidence points to the Reapers being downright hateful, sadistic, and unnecessarily cruel even if for some bizarre reason that galactic genocide was a necessity.

He's a lying little bastard and he knows it. This isn't a well meaning AI that reached a poor moral conclusion. This is an active and conscious attempt at deception.

In that case, explain why the Prothean VI gives clear indication of a controlloing force behind the Reapers.

It was theorizing. It reveals the Protheans weren't sure of this in the conversation. It was simply explaining the theory the Protheans had about the Reapers. It doesn't necessarily mean they were right. They were all cut off from each other and thousands of worlds were falling over the course of hundreds of years. They couldn't share much information with each other because communications and travel was cut off by the Reapers.
So they could easily make a false assumption in the vaccum of information the Reapers created around themselves.

You are correct. However to the claim that there was no foreshadowing in the "literal interpretation", that's clearly not the case, because the Catalyst is indeed the controlling force behind the Reapers.

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Actually, he's saying Destroy does.

And it kinda does.  Though not enough for me to actually say 100% that it does.

[estebanus]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

byne wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian read page 1637 and from there. That's about all that has happened.

Yeah, Legion's remarks. Sounds like the same rehashed arguments.

I hate the people who compare us to a religion. We interpret a video game ending differently! Clearly we're a cult-like religion!

Need I point out that our interpretation isnt the one with an all-powerful godchild in it?

Well this is a downright terrible cult, if you ask me!
We don't gather at a certain time apprpriately,
we don't have any secret code shenanigans,
and, most importantly of all, no stylish but also somewhat creepy hooded robes!

There's no joining(NO, not that kind of joining. Stop snickering.) ceremony either. 

And we also don't have any saints or great icons to aspire to! Come to think of it, we have nothing that a religion has!

[BatmanTurian]

SubAstris wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

I'm gonna repost this to remind people to keep talking about it.

Look at Destroy! It's all curvy, whereas Control is structure-like. 
Destroy is different, intentionally.

It. Looks. Like. A. Reaper.

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Shepard would subconciously associate Control with the Reapers and just had a conversation with real?/fake? TIM about Control and TIM reveals he is indoctrinated. It's natural that Shepard's mind would see Control like a Reaper. Destroy is a Proto-Reaper feeding tube that Shepard destroyed in ME2 so that Shep could start taking it out. Again, natural to form that from memories and association. If it's a hallucination, not all of what is seen could be controlled.

[SubAstris]

masster blaster wrote...

Subarts can you explain why should we trust the Prothean vi. Everyone says well they have to been created, but now in the final hours of the game it's point lest, and remember it's assuming there is a force that is Controling the Reaper, in which case Harbinger, not the Catalyst.

Harbinger is a Reaper, correct? The Prothean VI says that the controlling force is not itself a Reaper. Harbinger doesn't fit that description, the Catalyst does. He could be wrong, however the Prothean VI needs to be shown conclusively that he is so, which isn't shown to believe that he is lying.

Modifié par SubAstris, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:31 .

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

byne wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian read page 1637 and from there. That's about all that has happened.

Yeah, Legion's remarks. Sounds like the same rehashed arguments.

I hate the people who compare us to a religion. We interpret a video game ending differently! Clearly we're a cult-like religion!

Need I point out that our interpretation isnt the one with an all-powerful godchild in it?

I'm really sick of the argument that interpreting a story differently and speculating about it makes us religious. If anything, it only makes us curious, critical, and analytical, all signs of intelligence and a scientific mind.

People need to be better educated in the meaning of what a religion exactly is. But they don't, and thet's why there exist idots like that around here.

[BatmanTurian]

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The point, if the Catalyst is meant to be 100% correct, then we might as well let the Reapers win. The fact that he is not totally logical should be reassurance, otherwise you have played through hundreds of hours of gameplay to stop the very thing you now happen to agree with.

No. You're talking about him having reached an invalid logical conclusion. Something he believes to be true but isn't. That's not the issue. The issue is that he's lying and he knows he's lying. He claims to be basically the "boss" Reaper mind, something which has never been hinted at even existing and contradicts things we've seen and heard in the past. From both a story perspective and a logical perspective, that's highly unlikely. He claims the Reapers aren't malevolent, they just do what they believe to be necessary. Arian and I covered this pretty well a week or so ago and all evidence points to the Reapers being downright hateful, sadistic, and unnecessarily cruel even if for some bizarre reason that galactic genocide was a necessity.

He's a lying little bastard and he knows it. This isn't a well meaning AI that reached a poor moral conclusion. This is an active and conscious attempt at deception.

In that case, explain why the Prothean VI gives clear indication of a controlloing force behind the Reapers.

It was theorizing. It reveals the Protheans weren't sure of this in the conversation. It was simply explaining the theory the Protheans had about the Reapers. It doesn't necessarily mean they were right. They were all cut off from each other and thousands of worlds were falling over the course of hundreds of years. They couldn't share much information with each other because communications and travel was cut off by the Reapers.
So they could easily make a false assumption in the vaccum of information the Reapers created around themselves.

You are correct. However to the claim that there was no foreshadowing in the "literal interpretation", that's clearly not the case, because the Catalyst is indeed the controlling force behind the Reapers.

It says it is, but we don't know the real truth. It claims it controls a deceitful cybernetic race of ship-sized beings and is as manipulative as a car salesman in his conversation with Shepard. Starkid is not a reliable source of information.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:34 .

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Actually, he's saying Destroy does.

Ha, I couldn't even tell the difference, that's how similar they are!

[byne]

Wait a second... ESTEBANUS?! I didnt recognize you with that avatar!

[Priss Blackburne]

My First upload to Youtube so forgive any errors, and first video to boot.

It's the TIM conversation sound originaly and then speed up 2x

www.youtube.com/watch

[CoolioThane]

One may also argue that Shepard, after hearing these words, when dreaming/hallucinating, envisages these words in actuality. He may well be wrong, and after Shep wakes up, discovers Harby or whoever is the big main baddie after all.

[SubAstris]

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The point, if the Catalyst is meant to be 100% correct, then we might as well let the Reapers win. The fact that he is not totally logical should be reassurance, otherwise you have played through hundreds of hours of gameplay to stop the very thing you now happen to agree with.

No. You're talking about him having reached an invalid logical conclusion. Something he believes to be true but isn't. That's not the issue. The issue is that he's lying and he knows he's lying. He claims to be basically the "boss" Reaper mind, something which has never been hinted at even existing and contradicts things we've seen and heard in the past. From both a story perspective and a logical perspective, that's highly unlikely. He claims the Reapers aren't malevolent, they just do what they believe to be necessary. Arian and I covered this pretty well a week or so ago and all evidence points to the Reapers being downright hateful, sadistic, and unnecessarily cruel even if for some bizarre reason that galactic genocide was a necessity.

He's a lying little bastard and he knows it. This isn't a well meaning AI that reached a poor moral conclusion. This is an active and conscious attempt at deception.

In that case, explain why the Prothean VI gives clear indication of a controlloing force behind the Reapers.

Because thats what the Protheans believed? By assuming the form of the child, we already know the Reapers are in Shep's head. Its not exactly a big stretch for them to be like 'Hey, lets use this incorrect information Shep got from the Protheans to deceive her.'

First, we don't have any conclusive proof that the Reapers have tampered with the VI, or any VIs. But anyway, I disagree that the Catalyst using the child's form means they are in his head, like indoctrination in his head

[masster blaster]

Byne he has been back for the last four days or longer I think.

[SubAstris]

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

I'm gonna repost this to remind people to keep talking about it.

Look at Destroy! It's all curvy, whereas Control is structure-like. 
Destroy is different, intentionally.

It. Looks. Like. A. Reaper.

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Shepard would subconciously associate Control with the Reapers and just had a conversation with real?/fake? TIM about Control and TIM reveals he is indoctrinated. It's natural that Shepard's mind would see Control like a Reaper. Destroy is a Proto-Reaper feeding tube that Shepard destroyed in ME2 so that Shep could start taking it out. Again, natural to form that from memories and association. If it's a hallucination, not all of what is seen could be controlled.

But Harbinger is controlling his thoughts to a large extent, yes?

[BatmanTurian]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

My First upload to Youtube so forgive any errors, and first video to boot.

It's the TIM conversation sound originaly and then speed up 2x

www.youtube.com/watch

oh wow, that's pretty damning.

[masster blaster]

So does anyone know where I could get a hackett avatar. For free.

[estebanus]

byne wrote...

Wait a second... ESTEBANUS?! I didnt recognize you with that avatar!

I just thought it was time for a change, you know? Do something new for a while^_^ 

Also, I reasoned that if I'm going to be in a different continent anyway, I might as well change the way I look around here! 

[Dwailing]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

My First upload to Youtube so forgive any errors, and first video to boot.

It's the TIM conversation sound originaly and then speed up 2x

www.youtube.com/watch

Well, the original sound is definitely a slowed down version of the Reaper horns we've been hearing.

[SubAstris]

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The point, if the Catalyst is meant to be 100% correct, then we might as well let the Reapers win. The fact that he is not totally logical should be reassurance, otherwise you have played through hundreds of hours of gameplay to stop the very thing you now happen to agree with.

No. You're talking about him having reached an invalid logical conclusion. Something he believes to be true but isn't. That's not the issue. The issue is that he's lying and he knows he's lying. He claims to be basically the "boss" Reaper mind, something which has never been hinted at even existing and contradicts things we've seen and heard in the past. From both a story perspective and a logical perspective, that's highly unlikely. He claims the Reapers aren't malevolent, they just do what they believe to be necessary. Arian and I covered this pretty well a week or so ago and all evidence points to the Reapers being downright hateful, sadistic, and unnecessarily cruel even if for some bizarre reason that galactic genocide was a necessity.

He's a lying little bastard and he knows it. This isn't a well meaning AI that reached a poor moral conclusion. This is an active and conscious attempt at deception.

In that case, explain why the Prothean VI gives clear indication of a controlloing force behind the Reapers.

It was theorizing. It reveals the Protheans weren't sure of this in the conversation. It was simply explaining the theory the Protheans had about the Reapers. It doesn't necessarily mean they were right. They were all cut off from each other and thousands of worlds were falling over the course of hundreds of years. They couldn't share much information with each other because communications and travel was cut off by the Reapers.
So they could easily make a false assumption in the vaccum of information the Reapers created around themselves.

You are correct. However to the claim that there was no foreshadowing in the "literal interpretation", that's clearly not the case, because the Catalyst is indeed the controlling force behind the Reapers.

It says it is, but we don't know the real truth. It claims it controls a deceitful cybernetic race of ship-sized beings and is as manipulative as a car salesman in his conversation with Shepard. Starkid is not a reliable source of information.

We can't be sure, I am saying it makes sense from a "literal" perspective in that regard.

I'm not sure he is deceptive.

[BatmanTurian]

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

I'm gonna repost this to remind people to keep talking about it.

Look at Destroy! It's all curvy, whereas Control is structure-like. 
Destroy is different, intentionally.

It. Looks. Like. A. Reaper.

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Shepard would subconciously associate Control with the Reapers and just had a conversation with real?/fake? TIM about Control and TIM reveals he is indoctrinated. It's natural that Shepard's mind would see Control like a Reaper. Destroy is a Proto-Reaper feeding tube that Shepard destroyed in ME2 so that Shep could start taking it out. Again, natural to form that from memories and association. If it's a hallucination, not all of what is seen could be controlled.

But Harbinger is controlling his thoughts to a large extent, yes?

Influencing and manipulating. Harbinger can't control Shepard completely until Shepard gives in and absorbs the inception of Reaper values. So goes the theory. Therefore a piece, most likely a small piece, of Shep's mind is still his/hers.

[CoolioThane]

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Actually, he's saying Destroy does.

Ha, I couldn't even tell the difference, that's how similar they are!

One's angular, one's rounded. That's a pretty big difference.

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

Byne he has been back for the last four days or longer I think.

Yeah, but he was wondering about my different Avatar, not about me suddenly appearing out of nowhere.

[estebanus]

CoolioThane wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Actually, he's saying Destroy does.

Ha, I couldn't even tell the difference, that's how similar they are!

One's angular, one's rounded. That's a pretty big difference.

I think he was making a joke about the endings themselves...

[Priss Blackburne]

Dwailing wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

My First upload to Youtube so forgive any errors, and first video to boot.

It's the TIM conversation sound originaly and then speed up 2x

www.youtube.com/watch

Well, the original sound is definitely a slowed down version of the Reaper horns we've been hearing.

if I had a better video editor I would have taken a video and speed it up 2x. Best I could do was rip the sound files out of the ME3 dlc and find it manualy.

[SubAstris]

CoolioThane wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Control looks like a Reaper? Even if you are right, then you would expect that to subliminally put Shepard off choosing control, which is something the Catalyst doesn't want

Actually, he's saying Destroy does.

Ha, I couldn't even tell the difference, that's how similar they are!

One's angular, one's rounded. That's a pretty big difference.

But nonetheless, I would say "control" looks more Reaper-ish