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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#41851
HellishFiend

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Dwailing wrote...

It wouldn't make me want to give in if that's what you're suggesting.  I'd want to take out whatever was responsible.  I'd want to pull a Max Payne and DESTROY whatever was responsible, EXACTLY what Shepard would want to do.  It wouldn't break him, it would make him ANGRY.  It would make him want revenge.  What was that line from Garrus?  Something about, "The Collectors killed you once and all it did was **** you off."  And then something else about not being able to imagine what would happen if they tried again?  Yeah, think that, but the WHOLE OF THE GALAXY.  Shepard would have more rage than Asura, Kratos, and... Alex Mercer, was it? combined.  And for the record, I'd probably be VERY upset, but the Unstopable Rage would DEFINITELY be there.


No...it wouldnt. Your brain is being rewired, remember? Shepard is no longer Shepard, at that point. Your drive, will, emotions, all of that rewritten. There would be no rage. Shep would most likely be catatonic. Think of it like an extreme form of depression from which there is no return. 

#41852
Riot86

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Don't get too used to my current avatar! When I come home from the USA, I'll change it into my first Shepard!

The bolded part made me have a quick look at your profile...and only now I realize that you aren't an American but a fellow German ^_^


Sheesh, there are a LOT of Germans on this thread.  Are you guys smarter than us lowly United Statesians or something? ;)


Americans! /Bandit Keith


Ba Dum Tss!!! ;)

#41853
Dwailing

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Don't get too used to my current avatar! When I come home from the USA, I'll change it into my first Shepard!

The bolded part made me have a quick look at your profile...and only now I realize that you aren't an American but a fellow German ^_^


Sheesh, there are a LOT of Germans on this thread.  Are you guys smarter than us lowly United Statesians or something? ;)


Americans! /Bandit Keith


I'll just leave this here:  

*Also runs for life ;)*

#41854
byne

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Dwailing wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Don't get too used to my current avatar! When I come home from the USA, I'll change it into my first Shepard!

The bolded part made me have a quick look at your profile...and only now I realize that you aren't an American but a fellow German ^_^


Sheesh, there are a LOT of Germans on this thread.  Are you guys smarter than us lowly United Statesians or something? ;)


Americans! /Bandit Keith


I'll just leave this here:  

*Also runs for life ;)*


I was totally about to search for that, but now I dont have to!

#41855
Arian Dynas

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Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Unsurprisingly, since Shep has to be very naive to think Synthesis is a good choice, he dreams up a very naive scenario where it all works out. Synthehusk only gets a small cameo, because he chooses not to think about the unpleasant implications of having to incorporate Reaper monstrosities into galactic society. 


I was just thinking of something similar yesterday: I was reading about attempts to bring back the 300-year extinct Aurocks cattle to fight the beech tree take-over in Europe. Meanwhile, I was pondering, "How is it that these same people preach evolution and natural selection one minute, then resort to bio-engineering and artificial selection the next? What great hypocrisy people can show..."

Evolution is subjective, cyclic and circumstancial, not static or hierarchical. You dominate or you die, which is exactly what the Reapers practice, in spite of their insistance of an evolutionary apex.


The Reapers have never been beaten. They have every reason to believe they are the end of evolution, they have outdone nearly every other race that has ever existed, they make their case pretty well. As far as they are concerned, they can adapt to anything and thrive through it.

And it draws a few disturbing parallels to Javik's "Universal Imperative" philosophy... :unsure:


Which was exactly what Sovereign was professing before he got the Reaper Blue Screen of Death. If that effect could be multiplied, *poof*, dead Reaper parts everyone. Unless you're a Destroyer, because apparently they can't be broken apart no matter what. <_<


... Maybe they just have really good support structures? :mellow:

#41856
Vaya

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Arian Dynas wrote...

The Reapers have never been beaten. They have every reason to believe they are the end of evolution, they have outdone nearly every other race that has ever existed, they make their case pretty well. As far as they are concerned, they can adapt to anything and thrive through it.

And it draws a few disturbing parallels to Javik's "Universal Imperative" philosophy... :unsure:


One of my guesses as to the motives of the reapers was that the cycles were just how they stayed on top of the evolutionary chain.

#41857
estebanus

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Riot86 wrote...



estebanus wrote...

"German" is not entirely true. I may live in Germany, but I have no german family. My mom is american, and my dad is a dane. I only live in Germany, but since I am considered a german citizen, you're at least partly right!

So you basically are familiar with three different cultures? That's awesome, I really envy you for such a multicultural way of growing up [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

I guess I'm kinda unique that way! 

It's also nice that each time I go into the USA, I can go through the airport as a citizen, so that I won't have to wait in an airport line too long.

Modifié par estebanus, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:56 .


#41858
Andromidius

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Arian Dynas wrote...
I would argue that the implication of Destroy is more along the lines of being willing to seek less conventional methods, as well as willing to make sacrifices and accept there will be losses, rather than more conventional tactics.

I still am in the camp that says; Crucible = Reaper Gas-Station/ Power Source for the Dark Space Citadel Relay, with our method of victory being that we hotwire the thing so that it turns into a massive Secondary Relay without the safety protocols built in that keep relays from charging up if something is in the way, basically turning it into a massive Mass Accelerator Cannon.


Agreed.  No victory without sacrifice, after all.  And that's what the Crucible promises - easy victory.  Ignoring the horrors of Synthesis, of course (though no-one knows about it before it happens - they just think its a super weapon).

And yeah, its most logical that its a Reaper design placed to trick organic races into helping them complete the cycle more effeciently.  Getting your enemies to make you a giant power sources, plug it in and turn it on for you is genius.  And that's supposedly what Reapers are.  It does four things:

1/ Wastes your enemy's resources (so they don't build more conventional weapons or do research into new weapons with which to fight them with).
2/ Gathers all your enemy's forces into one locations so you can trap and destroy them in one decisive battle.
3/ Gives your own forces the fruits of your enemy's labour (recharges the Citadel for sending them all back to Dark Space, thanks very muchly!).
4/ Destroys the morale of whatever enemy resistance is left when word spreads that their one great hope was not only a failure but a trap.

Pure evil genius.

#41859
masster blaster

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UltimateTobi wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

No new evidences?
...
...
x.x


Interesting. Maybe I should try a full on Renegade playthrough in ME3 and see if it really resembles a SarenShep? :D

Well, TBH I don't like Renegade Sheps. :D Especially not on ME3. There, he's the true human Reaper LOL. ^^


I just saw the part with Legion. :o

No thanks, I'll just take this as evidence that ME3 Renegade is Saren minus the eyes (which can be modded on).

You can Renegade-action Legion 3 times. 3 shots in total. That's a little rude. Poor Legion. :(


oh MY GOD. How could somebody do that to Legion, and Mordin, and Wrex. I never played as a Renegade Shepard ( only when Kai Leng scene/Udina Scene Not my squad Member But. If that's NOT a clear sign that Shepard is betraying his/her friends just like Reaper Indoctrination state, then Shepard is walking in the Reapers path as Renegade Shepard.

Modifié par masster blaster, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:59 .


#41860
lex0r11

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What is going on in here? I demand a report!




Posted Image

#41861
Dwailing

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HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

It wouldn't make me want to give in if that's what you're suggesting.  I'd want to take out whatever was responsible.  I'd want to pull a Max Payne and DESTROY whatever was responsible, EXACTLY what Shepard would want to do.  It wouldn't break him, it would make him ANGRY.  It would make him want revenge.  What was that line from Garrus?  Something about, "The Collectors killed you once and all it did was **** you off."  And then something else about not being able to imagine what would happen if they tried again?  Yeah, think that, but the WHOLE OF THE GALAXY.  Shepard would have more rage than Asura, Kratos, and... Alex Mercer, was it? combined.  And for the record, I'd probably be VERY upset, but the Unstopable Rage would DEFINITELY be there.


No...it wouldnt. Your brain is being rewired, remember? Shepard is no longer Shepard, at that point. Your drive, will, emotions, all of that rewritten. There would be no rage. Shep would most likely be catatonic. Think of it like an extreme form of depression from which there is no return. 


Are you SURE it wouldn't?  Shep's an awfully strong willed guy (Or gal.), if anyone could manage to STILL get Unstopable Rage even WHILE his/her brain was being rewired, it would be him/her.  Or maybe I AM just nuts.  Anyone else have any brilliant thoughts to add?  I wanted this to be the subject of discussion, not just a debate between the Hellish and I (Not that this hasn't been fun Hellish, I just was hoping for other thoughts on the subject, and I tend not to think of something as being COMPLETE BS until at least three of my peers have weighed in on it negatively.)

#41862
Sero303

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What if...
The Reapers are the ones who originally created the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated, to force us to speculate, over and over again until WE become willing slaves of the Reapers?

#41863
estebanus

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lex0r11 wrote...

What is going on in here? I demand a report!




Posted Image



Commander Lex0r! Hellishfiend has changed his profile pic, sir!

#41864
byne

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Sero303 wrote...

What if...
The Reapers are the ones who originally created the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated, to force us to speculate, over and over again until WE become willing slaves of the Reapers?


Posted Image

Whoa

#41865
HellishFiend

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Dwailing wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

It wouldn't make me want to give in if that's what you're suggesting.  I'd want to take out whatever was responsible.  I'd want to pull a Max Payne and DESTROY whatever was responsible, EXACTLY what Shepard would want to do.  It wouldn't break him, it would make him ANGRY.  It would make him want revenge.  What was that line from Garrus?  Something about, "The Collectors killed you once and all it did was **** you off."  And then something else about not being able to imagine what would happen if they tried again?  Yeah, think that, but the WHOLE OF THE GALAXY.  Shepard would have more rage than Asura, Kratos, and... Alex Mercer, was it? combined.  And for the record, I'd probably be VERY upset, but the Unstopable Rage would DEFINITELY be there.


No...it wouldnt. Your brain is being rewired, remember? Shepard is no longer Shepard, at that point. Your drive, will, emotions, all of that rewritten. There would be no rage. Shep would most likely be catatonic. Think of it like an extreme form of depression from which there is no return. 


Are you SURE it wouldn't?  Shep's an awfully strong willed guy (Or gal.), if anyone could manage to STILL get Unstopable Rage even WHILE his/her brain was being rewired, it would be him/her.  Or maybe I AM just nuts.  Anyone else have any brilliant thoughts to add?  I wanted this to be the subject of discussion, not just a debate between the Hellish and I (Not that this hasn't been fun Hellish, I just was hoping for other thoughts on the subject, and I tend not to think of something as being COMPLETE BS until at least three of my peers have weighed in on it negatively.)


That sort of hubris (that you're, by nature, above indoctrination) only leads to further corruption, in my opinion. Happened to Saren, and ostensibly TIM as well. 

Though yes, anyone is welcome to jump in here, either way, and offer additional perspective on the issue. :)

#41866
Auralius Carolus

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Dwailing wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Don't get too used to my current avatar! When I come home from the USA, I'll change it into my first Shepard!

The bolded part made me have a quick look at your profile...and only now I realize that you aren't an American but a fellow German ^_^


Sheesh, there are a LOT of Germans on this thread.  Are you guys smarter than us lowly United Statesians or something? ;)


Americans! /Bandit Keith


I'll just leave this here:  

*Also runs for life ;)*


Come back coward!

#41867
HellishFiend

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estebanus wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

What is going on in here? I demand a report!

Commander Lex0r! Hellishfiend has changed his profile pic, sir!


News of the week right there. I have a clipboard now, people. If you thought I was a well-armed IT authority before, look out! :devil:

Modifié par HellishFiend, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:00 .


#41868
Dwailing

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lex0r11 wrote...

What is going on in here? I demand a report!




Posted Image




Hellish and I have been debating Rejection and its consequences from what I hope is an IT perspective, though as I said, I was just stating things as I see them.  For a full report, check the last page and possibly the page before that.

#41869
Arian Dynas

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Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
I would argue that the implication of Destroy is more along the lines of being willing to seek less conventional methods, as well as willing to make sacrifices and accept there will be losses, rather than more conventional tactics.

I still am in the camp that says; Crucible = Reaper Gas-Station/ Power Source for the Dark Space Citadel Relay, with our method of victory being that we hotwire the thing so that it turns into a massive Secondary Relay without the safety protocols built in that keep relays from charging up if something is in the way, basically turning it into a massive Mass Accelerator Cannon.


Agreed.  No victory without sacrifice, after all.  And that's what the Crucible promises - easy victory.  Ignoring the horrors of Synthesis, of course (though no-one knows about it before it happens - they just think its a super weapon).

And yeah, its most logical that its a Reaper design placed to trick organic races into helping them complete the cycle more effeciently.  Getting your enemies to make you a giant power sources, plug it in and turn it on for you is genius.  And that's supposedly what Reapers are.  It does four things:

1/ Wastes your enemy's resources (so they don't build more conventional weapons or do research into new weapons with which to fight them with).
2/ Gathers all your enemy's forces into one locations so you can trap and destroy them in one decisive battle.
3/ Gives your own forces the fruits of your enemy's labour (recharges the Citadel for sending them all back to Dark Space, thanks very muchly!).
4/ Destroys the morale of whatever enemy resistance is left when word spreads that their one great hope was not only a failure but a trap.

Pure evil genius.


And the best part? We have alot of little, subtle foreshadowing that indicates a massive Mass Accelerator for the idea.

"Armchair Generals" discussing the feasability of faster than light speed kamikaze runs, the Klendagon rift, What we learned about the feasabillity of Thanix Weapons against Reapers, while Kinetic Weapons are less effective, everything we learned about Mass Accelerators in general "A single paint chip, if accelerated to the speed of light can impact with the force of a 10 kiloton nuclear weapon" says the ME1 Codex, the fact that the Citadel is the Catalyst, as well as being a single honking massive relay WHICH THEY TOOK THE TIME TO REDESIGN for this game, which means there is a focus on it, as well as the fact that we have known this for three goddamn games and have yet to get a payoff on this fact. 

It is, exactly as they said, not a Reaper Off-Switch, we know that Secondary Relays do not need an endpoint like primary ones, and basically a bunch of stuff that to me at least feels like buildup.

But the biggest one remains the fact we have been told for three games that the thing is a massive relay, and have yet to see payoff of this fact.

And the truly best part about the whole thing? It wraps up the story completely with a nice little bow, giving everything Bioware promised pre-release, and to some extent post release.

The only problem with it is I don't think they will re-visit the endings again, if anything, the only way I DO see them doing it would be in flashback, which, well when you think about it, could actually help tell some rather interesting stories.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:08 .


#41870
Priss Blackburne

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omg I think I need time away... I'm starting to see IT everywhere....interview with Lance henrickson about the endings...why does he say there was not enough closure if the player loses...the abruptness of the ending if you lost. Could just be misunderstanding but that was after he did the VO work.

I'm going crazy I say crazy:o

www.g4tv.com/videos/58573/lance-henriksen-talks-about-the-new-mass-effect-3-ending/

actually I really do think this is driving me crazy a bit :o:O:O

#41871
Dwailing

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HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

It wouldn't make me want to give in if that's what you're suggesting.  I'd want to take out whatever was responsible.  I'd want to pull a Max Payne and DESTROY whatever was responsible, EXACTLY what Shepard would want to do.  It wouldn't break him, it would make him ANGRY.  It would make him want revenge.  What was that line from Garrus?  Something about, "The Collectors killed you once and all it did was **** you off."  And then something else about not being able to imagine what would happen if they tried again?  Yeah, think that, but the WHOLE OF THE GALAXY.  Shepard would have more rage than Asura, Kratos, and... Alex Mercer, was it? combined.  And for the record, I'd probably be VERY upset, but the Unstopable Rage would DEFINITELY be there.


No...it wouldnt. Your brain is being rewired, remember? Shepard is no longer Shepard, at that point. Your drive, will, emotions, all of that rewritten. There would be no rage. Shep would most likely be catatonic. Think of it like an extreme form of depression from which there is no return. 


Are you SURE it wouldn't?  Shep's an awfully strong willed guy (Or gal.), if anyone could manage to STILL get Unstopable Rage even WHILE his/her brain was being rewired, it would be him/her.  Or maybe I AM just nuts.  Anyone else have any brilliant thoughts to add?  I wanted this to be the subject of discussion, not just a debate between the Hellish and I (Not that this hasn't been fun Hellish, I just was hoping for other thoughts on the subject, and I tend not to think of something as being COMPLETE BS until at least three of my peers have weighed in on it negatively.)


That sort of hubris (that you're, by nature, above indoctrination) only leads to further corruption, in my opinion. Happened to Saren, and ostensibly TIM as well. 

Though yes, anyone is welcome to jump in here, either way, and offer additional perspective on the issue. :)


Actually, new perspective, if Shepard's brain had ALREADY been rewritten, and he was ALREADY not him/herself, then NOTHING you do will make a difference.  S/he'd already be past the point of no return.  I'm hoping it hasn't come to that yet. 

#41872
Arian Dynas

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byne wrote...

Sero303 wrote...

What if...
The Reapers are the ones who originally created the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated, to force us to speculate, over and over again until WE become willing slaves of the Reapers?


*Keanusnip*

Whoa


*Obligatory air guitar*

#41873
Arian Dynas

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lex0r11 wrote...

What is going on in here? I demand a report!
*snip*


Report to the war-room for debreifing.

And by that I mean keep your pants on.

#41874
lex0r11

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byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Don't get too used to my current avatar! When I come home from the USA, I'll change it into my first Shepard!

The bolded part made me have a quick look at your profile...and only now I realize that you aren't an American but a fellow German ^_^


Sheesh, there are a LOT of Germans on this thread.  Are you guys smarter than us lowly United Statesians or something? ;)


Americans! /Bandit Keith


I'll just leave this here:  

*Also runs for life ;)*


I was totally about to search for that, but now I dont have to!


I am a born American, part German and living in Germany. WHAT U GONNA DO NOW?

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

#41875
estebanus

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lex0r11 wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Don't get too used to my current avatar! When I come home from the USA, I'll change it into my first Shepard!

The bolded part made me have a quick look at your profile...and only now I realize that you aren't an American but a fellow German ^_^


Sheesh, there are a LOT of Germans on this thread.  Are you guys smarter than us lowly United Statesians or something? ;)


Americans! /Bandit Keith


I'll just leave this here:  

*Also runs for life ;)*


I was totally about to search for that, but now I dont have to!


I am a born American, part German and living in Germany. WHAT U GONNA DO NOW?

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

Damn, you're almost like me, Lex0r!