Ce sujet est fermé
TJBartlemus wrote...
Goodness. Leave 3 hours and about 10 pages spawn out of nowhere. Miss anything good? Also I think that besides the original thread, this is one of the longest threads in the forum. And literalists think that its gonna die off. HA! That's a joke.
Simon_Says wrote...
Returning to that discussion about reject/destroy. I'd have to side with the destroyers. I see reject as inaction on Shepard's part. It's all well and good to say stuff, but when you're stuck in a dead end those words will mean little to all those people who were counting on you.
I believe the Catalyst discusses destroy merely because it had to, because the red device was right there, dream or no. Not acknowledging it would trigger alarm bells and call into question what else is the Starbrat holding out on. Even then it still managed to use that option to its advantage.
Consider the following. Offer two choices. Both are ugly. People will naturally reject the choice. Present a third option that's even uglier, then suddenly the other two are more palatable. This is a basic mental sleight of hand that actually works more often than you'd think. People make money off of it, form restaurant owners to politicians.
Basically the Catalyst is going "Yeah you can destroy us. But it sucks cause you'll wipe out everyone else to and you'll die knowing you only delayed the problem. How about saving everyone, forever? No you won't live either but at least your death won't be pointless."
As for "So be it." I've explained my view on this before. The line was a scare tactic. It can be hard to realize as a player who can merely reload the level and try again but think what would happen if you were in Shepard's shoes. You're scared and confused, but you rejected the Starbrat anyway. But then it roared at you "SO BE IT". How brave are you going to be to then change your mind and rush destroy knowing that you definitely are in a reaper setup? Would you start wondering why the reaper offered destroy in the first place? What conclusion would you reach?
It's brilliant in a way. The Starbrat was bluffing with destroy. And if Shepard rejects, it turns it into a double bluff.
"The reapers are clever in their deceptions."
Simon_Says wrote...
The problem here is that the hard evidence is that destroy results in the breath scene and reject doesn't. Even if reject is a moral victory, it would appear that it's not a real one.Lokanaiya wrote...
As much as I'd like to get into this, it seems to simply be a matter of perspective and so discussing it won't really change anyone's mind. How about we keep away from things that are opinions and stick to hard evidence?Simon_Says wrote...
Returning to that discussion about reject/destroy. I'd have to side with the destroyers. I see reject as inaction on Shepard's part. It's all well and good to say stuff, but when you're stuck in a dead end those words will mean little to all those people who were counting on you.
I believe the Catalyst discusses destroy merely because it had to, because the red device was right there, dream or no. Not acknowledging it would trigger alarm bells and call into question what else is the Starbrat holding out on. Even then it still managed to use that option to its advantage.
Consider the following. Offer two choices. Both are ugly. People will naturally reject the choice. Present a third option that's even uglier, then suddenly the other two are more palatable. This is a basic mental sleight of hand that actually works more often than you'd think. People make money off of it, form restaurant owners to politicians.
Basically the Catalyst is going "Yeah you can destroy us. But it sucks cause you'll wipe out everyone else to and you'll die knowing you only delayed the problem. How about saving everyone, forever? No you won't live either but at least your death won't be pointless."
As for "So be it." I've explained my view on this before. The line was a scare tactic. It can be hard to realize as a player who can merely reload the level and try again but think what would happen if you were in Shepard's shoes. You're scared and confused, but you rejected the Starbrat anyway. But then it roared at you "SO BE IT". How brave are you going to be to then change your mind and rush destroy knowing that you definitely are in a reaper setup? Would you start wondering why the reaper offered destroy in the first place. What conclsion would you reach?
It's brilliant in a way. The Starbrat was bluffing with destroy. And if Shepard rejects, it turns it into a double bluff.
"The reapers are clever in their deceptions."
Rifneno wrote...
TJBartlemus wrote...
Goodness. Leave 3 hours and about 10 pages spawn out of nowhere. Miss anything good? Also I think that besides the original thread, this is one of the longest threads in the forum. And literalists think that its gonna die off. HA! That's a joke.
Literalists aren't very good at that whole "logic" thing.
TJBartlemus wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
TJBartlemus wrote...
Goodness. Leave 3 hours and about 10 pages spawn out of nowhere. Miss anything good? Also I think that besides the original thread, this is one of the longest threads in the forum. And literalists think that its gonna die off. HA! That's a joke.
Literalists aren't very good at that whole "logic" thing.
Well some are and they confuse themselves or they are afraid that we may be right.
Lokanaiya wrote...
Simon_Says wrote...
The problem here is that the hard evidence is that destroy results in the breath scene and reject doesn't. Even if reject is a moral victory, it would appear that it's not a real one.Lokanaiya wrote...
As much as I'd like to get into this, it seems to simply be a matter of perspective and so discussing it won't really change anyone's mind. How about we keep away from things that are opinions and stick to hard evidence?Simon_Says wrote...
Returning to that discussion about reject/destroy. I'd have to side with the destroyers. I see reject as inaction on Shepard's part. It's all well and good to say stuff, but when you're stuck in a dead end those words will mean little to all those people who were counting on you.
I believe the Catalyst discusses destroy merely because it had to, because the red device was right there, dream or no. Not acknowledging it would trigger alarm bells and call into question what else is the Starbrat holding out on. Even then it still managed to use that option to its advantage.
Consider the following. Offer two choices. Both are ugly. People will naturally reject the choice. Present a third option that's even uglier, then suddenly the other two are more palatable. This is a basic mental sleight of hand that actually works more often than you'd think. People make money off of it, form restaurant owners to politicians.
Basically the Catalyst is going "Yeah you can destroy us. But it sucks cause you'll wipe out everyone else to and you'll die knowing you only delayed the problem. How about saving everyone, forever? No you won't live either but at least your death won't be pointless."
As for "So be it." I've explained my view on this before. The line was a scare tactic. It can be hard to realize as a player who can merely reload the level and try again but think what would happen if you were in Shepard's shoes. You're scared and confused, but you rejected the Starbrat anyway. But then it roared at you "SO BE IT". How brave are you going to be to then change your mind and rush destroy knowing that you definitely are in a reaper setup? Would you start wondering why the reaper offered destroy in the first place. What conclsion would you reach?
It's brilliant in a way. The Starbrat was bluffing with destroy. And if Shepard rejects, it turns it into a double bluff.
"The reapers are clever in their deceptions."
Then what's the point of discussing it if you already know the answer?
Auralius Carolus wrote...
Simon_Says wrote...
Returning to that discussion about reject/destroy. I'd have to side with the destroyers. I see reject as inaction on Shepard's part. It's all well and good to say stuff, but when you're stuck in a dead end those words will mean little to all those people who were counting on you.
I believe the Catalyst discusses destroy merely because it had to, because the red device was right there, dream or no. Not acknowledging it would trigger alarm bells and call into question what else is the Starbrat holding out on. Even then it still managed to use that option to its advantage.
Consider the following. Offer two choices. Both are ugly. People will naturally reject the choice. Present a third option that's even uglier, then suddenly the other two are more palatable. This is a basic mental sleight of hand that actually works more often than you'd think. People make money off of it, form restaurant owners to politicians.
Basically the Catalyst is going "Yeah you can destroy us. But it sucks cause you'll wipe out everyone else to and you'll die knowing you only delayed the problem. How about saving everyone, forever? No you won't live either but at least your death won't be pointless."
As for "So be it." I've explained my view on this before. The line was a scare tactic. It can be hard to realize as a player who can merely reload the level and try again but think what would happen if you were in Shepard's shoes. You're scared and confused, but you rejected the Starbrat anyway. But then it roared at you "SO BE IT". How brave are you going to be to then change your mind and rush destroy knowing that you definitely are in a reaper setup? Would you start wondering why the reaper offered destroy in the first place? What conclusion would you reach?
It's brilliant in a way. The Starbrat was bluffing with destroy. And if Shepard rejects, it turns it into a double bluff.
"The reapers are clever in their deceptions."
Well, what evidence exists of long-term indoctrinees suggests that they experience far less force from Reaper signals. In other words, they are convinced, not coerced, thus allowing their own minds to ease along the indoctrination process. Seeing as Shepard expects the ability to destroy, the SpaceBrat avoids destressing Shepard and presents him with the option. It, therefore, is not because he can see the power conduit- which could easily pass as set of wires that would cut the link to Crucible, therefore preventing it from transmitting to the Citadel- but because it sets his mind at ease.
Modifié par Arian Dynas, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .
You should watch my vids on "Indoctrination Theory- ME3 Extended Cut DLC Analysis" and tell me what you think.marcelo_sdk wrote...
I just finished the game for the second time with EC, now with destroy. In the first,wich originally I chosed destroy and then changed to reject all options, although I liked the EC just for giving that option, I must say that I was a little disappointed. But with the destroy ending, the EC really surprised me. The ending is 29478923x better. I'll tell now what are my impressions of the ending.
1. First of all, IT was both proven and disproven. How? It's very clear, for me, that Harbinger says "serve us". So, it's obvious that the Reapers where trying to indoctrinate Shepard. But, a point that not all, but most ITers defended, that everything after you get to the Citadel is an hallucination, was disproven (at least for me). But one thing remains a great mystery, and I hope it'll be solved one day: how Shepard survived the fall from the Citadel to Earth? (if there was a fall)
2. With the additional dialogues, the Catalyst's statements became more ridiculous. The apex of stupidity was the comparison between the Reapers genocide and a fire burning. I won't even comment cause all of you saw it.
3. The Stargazer scene. Initially, 99% percent of the people tought it was in a distant future, with humans "stuck" in the planet. Now, for me, it's just humans in a future that can be very close. The little boy just want to go to the stars, and the stargazer says "one day". For me, now it sounded more like when I asked to my father "When I'll can drive?" and he said "one day".
4. Apprently, the relays doesn't exploded as many initially tought. For me, it's more like their eezo core was depleted when transporting the energy from the Crucible. It's kind what I thoght with the old endings. (cause it was the only explanation to why all the relay systems wheren't destroyed like Bahak)
If u guys disagree with something (or everything), please tell.
Modifié par FreddyCast, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:15 .
marcelo_sdk wrote...
I just finished the game for the second time with EC, now with destroy. In the first,wich originally I chosed destroy and then changed to reject all options, although I liked the EC just for giving that option, I must say that I was a little disappointed. But with the destroy ending, the EC really surprised me. The ending is 29478923x better. I'll tell now what are my impressions of the ending.
1. First of all, IT was both proven and disproven. How? It's very clear, for me, that Harbinger says "serve us". So, it's obvious that the Reapers where trying to indoctrinate Shepard. But, a point that not all, but most ITers defended, that everything after you get to the Citadel is an hallucination, was disproven (at least for me). But one thing remains a great mystery, and I hope it'll be solved one day: how Shepard survived the fall from the Citadel to Earth? (if there was a fall)
2. With the additional dialogues, the Catalyst's statements became more ridiculous. The apex of stupidity was the comparison between the Reapers genocide and a fire burning. I won't even comment cause all of you saw it.
3. The Stargazer scene. Initially, 99% percent of the people tought it was in a distant future, with humans "stuck" in the planet. Now, for me, it's just humans in a future that can be very close. The little boy just want to go to the stars, and the stargazer says "one day". For me, now it sounded more like when I asked to my father "When I'll can drive?" and he said "one day".
4. Apprently, the relays doesn't exploded as many initially tought. For me, it's more like their eezo core was depleted when transporting the energy from the Crucible. It's kind what I thoght with the old endings. (cause it was the only explanation to why all the relay systems wheren't destroyed like Bahak)
If u guys disagree with something (or everything), please tell.
Modifié par Turbo_J, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:38 .
Turbo_J wrote...
marcelo_sdk wrote...
I just finished the game for the second time with EC, now with destroy. In the first,wich originally I chosed destroy and then changed to reject all options, although I liked the EC just for giving that option, I must say that I was a little disappointed. But with the destroy ending, the EC really surprised me. The ending is 29478923x better. I'll tell now what are my impressions of the ending.
1. First of all, IT was both proven and disproven. How? It's very clear, for me, that Harbinger says "serve us". So, it's obvious that the Reapers where trying to indoctrinate Shepard. But, a point that not all, but most ITers defended, that everything after you get to the Citadel is an hallucination, was disproven (at least for me). But one thing remains a great mystery, and I hope it'll be solved one day: how Shepard survived the fall from the Citadel to Earth? (if there was a fall)
2. With the additional dialogues, the Catalyst's statements became more ridiculous. The apex of stupidity was the comparison between the Reapers genocide and a fire burning. I won't even comment cause all of you saw it.
3. The Stargazer scene. Initially, 99% percent of the people tought it was in a distant future, with humans "stuck" in the planet. Now, for me, it's just humans in a future that can be very close. The little boy just want to go to the stars, and the stargazer says "one day". For me, now it sounded more like when I asked to my father "When I'll can drive?" and he said "one day".
4. Apprently, the relays doesn't exploded as many initially tought. For me, it's more like their eezo core was depleted when transporting the energy from the Crucible. It's kind what I thoght with the old endings. (cause it was the only explanation to why all the relay systems wheren't destroyed like Bahak)
If u guys disagree with something (or everything), please tell.
Well, I figured it was time for me to take a break from the current Choose Wisely vid to check in on the thread. And now I get to play.
The following are my opinion and nothing more.
1. The noise from the Reaper. It's a noise at best, a Reaper mind job on the player at worst. It means nothing.
2. Agreed, but I only listened to the extra dialog on one playthrough. I've only played the EC 3 times. One to see reject for myself and twice for destroy. I go straight to Destroy without listening to anything Harbinger has to say.
3. I only ever took one thing away from that scene. 'One More Story.' Something people touting Reject as an option should be wary of, is 'One More Story.' in that ending is 'a story' from the archives... the boy does not specifically ask the Asari to tell him another story about the Shepard.
4. The Relay explosion starts in the Viper Nebula at the Bahak system where these is no Relay. I've never believed that scene to be real, let alone at least 1/3 of London at a minimum. From the start of the charge to the 'conduit' (lol), to the Harbinger hit is just as much of an illusion as the Citadel sequence. The first half Shepard actually may be moving and taking action (sleep running), the other mostly drooling, staring, and muttering to themselves until they electrocute themselves, jump on a dragons tooth (or simply face plant for no reason) or shoot something explosive.
For the most part the EC didn't change my stance on my interpretation of the endings. The Normandy scene perhaps strengthened it, actually. Kind of a lol moment upon review, really.
and another point, how did anderson get from vancouver to london?masster blaster wrote...
Oh and did anyone notice where did Anderson go when you were running to the Conduit/beacon. Also they still did not explain where did Shepard get the gun with unlimited ammo, so ya and Harby says Serve us, because you can clearly hear us.
marcelo_sdk wrote...
I just finished the game for the second time with EC, now with destroy. In the first,wich originally I chosed destroy and then changed to reject all options, although I liked the EC just for giving that option, I must say that I was a little disappointed. But with the destroy ending, the EC really surprised me. The ending is 29478923x better. I'll tell now what are my impressions of the ending.
1. First of all, IT was both proven and disproven. How? It's very clear, for me, that Harbinger says "serve us". So, it's obvious that the Reapers where trying to indoctrinate Shepard. But, a point that not all, but most ITers defended, that everything after you get to the Citadel is an hallucination, was disproven (at least for me). But one thing remains a great mystery, and I hope it'll be solved one day: how Shepard survived the fall from the Citadel to Earth? (if there was a fall)
2. With the additional dialogues, the Catalyst's statements became more ridiculous. The apex of stupidity was the comparison between the Reapers genocide and a fire burning. I won't even comment cause all of you saw it.
3. The Stargazer scene. Initially, 99% percent of the people tought it was in a distant future, with humans "stuck" in the planet. Now, for me, it's just humans in a future that can be very close. The little boy just want to go to the stars, and the stargazer says "one day". For me, now it sounded more like when I asked to my father "When I'll can drive?" and he said "one day".
4. Apprently, the relays doesn't exploded as many initially tought. For me, it's more like their eezo core was depleted when transporting the energy from the Crucible. It's kind what I thoght with the old endings. (cause it was the only explanation to why all the relay systems wheren't destroyed like Bahak)
If u guys disagree with something (or everything), please tell.
Modifié par BleedingUranium, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .
marcelo_sdk wrote...
1. That was not even an interpretaion for me. I think it's very clear that Harbinger says "Serve us"
4. I'm not sure it starts in the Viper Nebula. I'm sure it's not Sol system.
Blur, excellent timing. Yeah we need to figure out if it plays on Thessia or just in TIM's base, implying he was messed with.BleedingUranium wrote...
Something that seems very important my brother (BansheeOwnage) and I just noticed after I finally played EC for myself yesterday, Vendetta has creepy voices in the background when he's on Cronos, the whole time he talks. More of his own voice. I never noticed it before, and have never seen it mentioned, so I was pretty freaked out.
We turned it up at a dialogue choice pause, because it keeps going there, and it seems to be lines he normally says cut up and messed with. We could both make out "Catalyst" and "Indoctrinated Forces", though nothing else. All the dilogue sounds sped up and there are three of his own voices at once (maybe more); one pitched up, one down, and one normal. For anything else one of you would need to pull out the sound file.
So, on top of the good amount of evidence that Vendetta's either a plant or has been tampered with, this seems to support something's wrong with him, most likely tampering.
Thoughts? Can anyone check Thessia?
Also, how do I make my sig's words different colours, they keep going back to black when I try to save it
masster blaster wrote...
Oh and did anyone notice where did Anderson go when you were running to the Conduit/beacon. Also they still did not explain where did Shepard get the gun with unlimited ammo, so ya and Harby says Serve us, because you can clearly hear us.
Yes, I haven't seen anyone else make a vid for this.Turbo_J wrote...
marcelo_sdk wrote...
1. That was not even an interpretaion for me. I think it's very clear that Harbinger says "Serve us"
4. I'm not sure it starts in the Viper Nebula. I'm sure it's not Sol system.
If you look at the Viper Nebula on the ME2 galaxy map you can see a cluster of stars; you can't make them out individually in either the ME2 or ME3 maps, but it's obviously brighter right where the Bahak system is/was. If you compare the end game cut scene with the ME3 GM, the explosion is right where this cluster of stars is.
The ME2 galaxy map is clocked differently. The Viper Nebula/Bahak system is right in the middle of this cluster, but it's closer to the 5 o'clock position in ME2 vs. the 6:30 position in ME3.
Maybe they rotated the map on purpose, but there is still no mistaking the origin of the explosion for the Sol system.
Guess I may need to do a video on this one as well.
maybe I'll just make my sig something about always being at the top of the page...
Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .
marcelo_sdk wrote...
masster blaster wrote...
Oh and did anyone notice where did Anderson go when you were running to the Conduit/beacon. Also they still did not explain where did Shepard get the gun with unlimited ammo, so ya and Harby says Serve us, because you can clearly hear us.
I heard it a couple of times. First, it's certain tha he says something, it's not an interpretation. If people want to hear:
You can see that it's not the Reaper growl that we are trying to interpetrate, it's a totally different sound. And no, Harbinger doesn't make a different growl, when he arrives at the beam we can hear the usual Reaper growl.
When I heard it the first time, I was 100% sure it was "serve us". But after hearing it more than 10x with my headphone at max, I think it can be "save us". And, when I think about the endings, "save us" would explain a lot of things.
1. We know the Reapers where created by some specie. At least, what I understood, is that the Catalyst was created to resolve a conflict between that specie and the synthetics of that "cycle" (The Reapers?). The "brilliant" solution of the Catalyst was force that specie to be "stored" in Reaper form ("We tried synthesis before, but it didn't work. It's something that can't be forced"). That Reaper is Harbinger. Perhaps, differently that we think, the other Reapers are just AIs. They are not like Harbinger or the human reaper. And, as far as we know, the Reapers failed to create a Prothean Reaper, failed with a Human Reaper (and perhaps with a "Keepers Reaper?).
2. It would explain why Harbinger didn't destroy the Normandy and why he didn't killed Shepard.
3. To conclude, I think that in this phrase lies many answers to IT. If he says "serve us", everything stays open. IT remains a valid and possible explanation. But if he says "save us", we would have to change a lot of conclusions we made. First that, perhaps, the best ending is Control, and so, the Paragon and Renegade order would be restabilished. The Catalyst wants synthesis only, so Control would still goes against what he wants, but now you would save the galaxy AND The Reapers.
I think the Leviathan DLC will give us many answers. It appears to foccus at the creators of the Reapers, and adds new dialogues to the conversation with the Catalyst.
Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:25 .
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