55528 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

[TSA_383]

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

I... Hadn't looked at it that way before, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

How would that explain the anger, though?
I mean regardless, with any luck we'll hear something about it at SDCC, but still...

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

That people wanted an option to disagree?
The ))) tells me you don't have a : on your keyboard because your from russia.

[MegumiAzusa]

TSA_383 wrote...

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

I... Hadn't looked at it that way before, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

How would that explain the anger, though?
I mean regardless, with any luck we'll hear something about it at SDCC, but still...

"You have to destroy us, but don't refuse! I know I didn't order my Reapers to stop yet, but that's all part of the plan. I will destroy the crucible if you don't choose soon, but dare you refusing me!"

[UltimateTobi]

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

From my and my IT perspective it tells me that this is a mind game. Sure, Destroy is bathed in red, yet Anderson picks it. Control is bathed in blue and IM picks it.
Synthesis is bathed in blue and more utopian green. (Saren would've picked that.) That are 2 villains contrary to the color the choices get represented with.

Have a look at Earth in the background, and compare it with the choices' colors. Next to Control is blackness.
Next to Destroy is a vastness of whiteness. And I don't recall anything on Earth which could produce such a bright white light. Not even burning multiple cities.

[HellishFiend]

UltimateTobi wrote...

Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

I kinda doubt that. I can't believe that the following cycle just so happens to actually defeat the Reapers without any explanation....

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

That people wanted an option to disagree?
The ))) tells me you don't have a : on your keyboard because your from russia.

There - ) fixed it. I'm just lazy this way. 
I am from russia, our keyboards are really identical. I just miss latters sometimes, cause i try to type fast, don't pay much attention to it, and besides i'm on the laptop - so sometimes it doesn't register when i push the button. 

[MegumiAzusa]

HellishFiend wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

I kinda doubt that. I can't believe that the following cycle just so happens to actually defeat the Reapers without any explanation....

Two points for that:
It's called Opt Out.
They said this cycle managed to preserve enough information for the next.

Though you can't say if opt out is good or bad in this case, but your cycle will loose according to the savegame.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:37 .

[Dwailing]

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

The thing I don't think anyone's considered yet is that in order to actually CHOOSE Destroy, you have to choose at least one piece dialogue with the Catalyst that is very complacent.  If you choose Rejection, you fight the Catalyst every step of the way.  Honestly, I don't know for sure yet, but I still think that Rejection has something different going on from the rest.

[Rosewind]

Dam you Hell every time I see your avatar I think this:

"Joker and ...... LEGION! will head to the back door .... the back ......" "Door, yes we understand you want us to respone with .." "Ass fetish!" "No....wait...Yes

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

The thing I don't think anyone's considered yet is that in order to actually CHOOSE Destroy, you have to choose at least one piece dialogue with the Catalyst that is very complacent.  If you choose Rejection, you fight the Catalyst every step of the way.  Honestly, I don't know for sure yet, but I still think that Rejection has something different going on from the rest.

That's what I thought, though it could be because it's just added but it could also be planned.

[UltimateTobi]

Rosewind wrote...

Dam you Hell every time I see your avatar I think this:

"Joker and ...... LEGION! will head to the back door .... the back ......" "Door, yes we understand you want us to respone with .." "Ass fetish!" "No....wait...Yes

Shepard-Commander!
... Shepard-Commander...?!
...Shepard...?

[HellishFiend]

UltimateTobi wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Dam you Hell every time I see your avatar I think this:

"Joker and ...... LEGION! will head to the back door .... the back ......" "Door, yes we understand you want us to respone with .." "Ass fetish!" "No....wait...Yes

Shepard-Commander!
... Shepard-Commander...?!
...Shepard...?

*continues looking at his clipboard*

[Rosewind]

UltimateTobi wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Dam you Hell every time I see your avatar I think this:

"Joker and ...... LEGION! will head to the back door .... the back ......" "Door, yes we understand you want us to respone with .." "Ass fetish!" "No....wait...Yes

Shepard-Commander!
... Shepard-Commander...?!
...Shepard...?

*Puts a saucepan on her head* "Lets do this!"

[demersel]

UltimateTobi wrote...
From my and my IT perspective it tells me that this is a mind game. Sure, Destroy is bathed in red, yet Anderson picks it. 

Actually for me, the fact that anderson picks it - was the fact that made me doubt picking it the most. This single thing. Not the geth and EDI dead, not anythingh, but the fact that this is what anderson would have done, as in "mindless fanatical approach of a narrow minded soldier hellbent on getting payback" - those were my thoughts while i was playing. That was the way it was presented to me, and that single thing made me doubt the validity of the choice. But then thought about it for like two minutes and decided that all my doubts rose from the presentation, and it was deliberatly painted in the negative light, as opposed by the other two choices. So i thought - "two hell with it, you're still gonna die" And shot that tube. 
After i watched the ending (i i was very satisfied with it, mind you, really) - i watched the other endings - and was amesed - they all looked the same but felt VASTLY different - in terms of satisfaction. 

[MaximizedAction]

Dwailing wrote...

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

I don't like the reject option. I don't think it is the way to break free. First - it wasn't present in the original game. And second - all it does is basicly give even more reasons to people not to choose destroy. Thus i think it will not lead to breaking off indoctrination. It is more like giving up and doing nothing.

Yeah.

Destroy = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and then you wake up as the real Shepard.
Control = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and I presume Shepard wakes up then, but he's not himself, hence we don't see Shepard/us waking up. Because we/Shepard is no more. (His real mind died.)
Synthesis = Having the most wishful vision (incl. transitions), and that's the same as Control. (His real mind died.)
Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

Yes, but that is from game mechanicspoint of view. But think about it from a story point of view. You know everything that happened up to this point and then you are presented with vague choice: DESTROY (which is a no-no for some reason - pictured to you in the negative light), control, synthesis (which is pictured in the most positive light possible) and then refuse, which is met with anger for some reason. 


Now, before the EC people would pick destroy for two reasons - 1 - they actually want to pick destroy. 2 - they like other options even less. 

Now with the EC, there is a refusal option for those people. So now only people who really want to pick destroy pick it.

What does it tell you? )))

The thing I don't think anyone's considered yet is that in order to actually CHOOSE Destroy, you have to choose at least one piece dialogue with the Catalyst that is very complacent.  If you choose Rejection, you fight the Catalyst every step of the way.  Honestly, I don't know for sure yet, but I still think that Rejection has something different going on from the rest.

Say what you want, I stick to my post-EC point of view:
Refuse is the next best thing to resisting the Catalyst, even with Destroy's breath scene. I can't explain it from an in-game perspective, but that doesn't make it feel less 'right' to me.
So yeah, due to this feeling in my gut, I think Reject is something...special. It's just not 'finished' yet.

@demersel
I love your last two sentences! With the EC I don't find Destroy less appealing than pre-EC, but post-EC I now have Reject, which I just find better from its setting...except that the outcome could be a bit different.

[UltimateTobi]

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...
From my and my IT perspective it tells me that this is a mind game. Sure, Destroy is bathed in red, yet Anderson picks it. 

Actually for me, the fact that anderson picks it - was the fact that made me doubt picking it the most. This single thing. Not the geth and EDI dead, not anythingh, but the fact that this is what anderson would have done, as in "mindless fanatical approach of a narrow minded soldier hellbent on getting payback" - those were my thoughts while i was playing. That was the way it was presented to me, and that single thing made me doubt the validity of the choice. But then thought about it for like two minutes and decided that all my doubts rose from the presentation, and it was deliberatly painted in the negative light, as opposed by the other two choices. So i thought - "two hell with it, you're still gonna die" And shot that tube. 
After i watched the ending (i i was very satisfied with it, mind you, really) - i watched the other endings - and was amesed - they all looked the same but felt VASTLY different - in terms of satisfaction. 

We question your judgement. (Little joke.)

Don't know what to tell there. I told you my POV, and you have yours I guess. I'm not a good one at discussing.

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

I kinda doubt that. I can't believe that the following cycle just so happens to actually defeat the Reapers without any explanation....

Yep.  Especially with the line 'the Crucible didn't work'.  So unless there was an off-screen war where Organics won a (un)conventional victory...

[HellishFiend]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Say what you want, I stick to my post-EC point of view:
Refuse is the next best thing to resisting the Catalyst, even with Destroy's breath scene. I can't explain it from an in-game perspective, but that doesn't make it feel less 'right' to me.
So yeah, due to this feeling in my gut, I think Reject is something...special. It's just not 'finished' yet.

@demersel
I love your last two sentences! With the EC I don't find Destroy less appealing than pre-EC, but post-EC I now have Reject, which I just find better from its setting...except that the outcome could be a bit different.

I know we've been over this before, and I wont discount the possibility you believe in, but I still disagree on the grounds that I believe what we/Shepard see in the hallucination is the manner in which his brain is being rewired by the indoctrination. 

I mean, just look at the differences in the colored endings. Strong willed soldiers vs weak willed soldiers, talking like a Reaper vs uplifting speech by Hackett, etc. Then you have Refuse/Opt-out, where Shep sees the entire cycle come apart around him. The only "good" thing about it is a blusterous yet pointless speech (which comes BEFORE the "what we see" part)... Blusterous yet pointless speeches is the reason the US has been stuck with a pointless President for the past several years.  People get swept up in pomp and fail to realize there is no actual purposeful content there. 

[paxxton]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

Refusal = Having no vision at all (no transitions), Shepard just dies completely and what follows is presumably real.

I kinda doubt that. I can't believe that the following cycle just so happens to actually defeat the Reapers without any explanation....

Yep.  Especially with the line 'the Crucible didn't work'.  So unless there was an off-screen war where Organics won a (un)conventional victory...

Hey! Didn't you hear what the Reapers were saying all the time? You can't win.

[Rosewind]

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...
From my and my IT perspective it tells me that this is a mind game. Sure, Destroy is bathed in red, yet Anderson picks it. 

Actually for me, the fact that anderson picks it - was the fact that made me doubt picking it the most. This single thing. Not the geth and EDI dead, not anythingh, but the fact that this is what anderson would have done, as in "mindless fanatical approach of a narrow minded soldier hellbent on getting payback" - those were my thoughts while i was playing. That was the way it was presented to me, and that single thing made me doubt the validity of the choice. But then thought about it for like two minutes and decided that all my doubts rose from the presentation, and it was deliberatly painted in the negative light, as opposed by the other two choices. So i thought - "two hell with it, you're still gonna die" And shot that tube. 
After i watched the ending (i i was very satisfied with it, mind you, really) - i watched the other endings - and was amesed - they all looked the same but felt VASTLY different - in terms of satisfaction. 

We question your judgement. (Little joke.)

Don't know what to tell there. I told you my POV, and you have yours I guess. I'm not a good one at discussing.

"Geth love this song"


I still have no clue how he got legion to say those things I swear I never heard any of those lines in ME2 specially the STD line.

[maxloef]

Rosewind wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Dam you Hell every time I see your avatar I think this:

"Joker and ...... LEGION! will head to the back door .... the back ......" "Door, yes we understand you want us to respone with .." "Ass fetish!" "No....wait...Yes

Shepard-Commander!
... Shepard-Commander...?!
...Shepard...?

*Puts a saucepan on her head* "Lets do this!"

MAAANN DOOOOOWWWNNNN

[UltimateTobi]

paxxton wrote...

Hey! Didn't you hear what the Reapers were saying all the time? You can't win.

Guess so, I added a link to clarify.

[UltimateTobi]

Rosewind wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...

demersel wrote...

UltimateTobi wrote...
From my and my IT perspective it tells me that this is a mind game. Sure, Destroy is bathed in red, yet Anderson picks it. 

Actually for me, the fact that anderson picks it - was the fact that made me doubt picking it the most. This single thing. Not the geth and EDI dead, not anythingh, but the fact that this is what anderson would have done, as in "mindless fanatical approach of a narrow minded soldier hellbent on getting payback" - those were my thoughts while i was playing. That was the way it was presented to me, and that single thing made me doubt the validity of the choice. But then thought about it for like two minutes and decided that all my doubts rose from the presentation, and it was deliberatly painted in the negative light, as opposed by the other two choices. So i thought - "two hell with it, you're still gonna die" And shot that tube. 
After i watched the ending (i i was very satisfied with it, mind you, really) - i watched the other endings - and was amesed - they all looked the same but felt VASTLY different - in terms of satisfaction. 

We question your judgement. (Little joke.)

Don't know what to tell there. I told you my POV, and you have yours I guess. I'm not a good one at discussing.

"Geth love this song"


I still have no clue how he got legion to say those things I swear I never heard any of those lines in ME2 specially the STD line.

I guess he took every single word which was fitting and cutted them together.

As for the STD, he definitely says it somewhere, when you talk to him in ME2 everytime you can.

Here:

[paxxton]

Can't wait till Saturday and the ME discussion panel. What do you think BioWare is going to reveal?

Modifié par paxxton, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .