55528 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

Lord Goose wrote...
So, basically, I do not think it is a huge stretch to assume that room where Shepard was had powerful kinetic barriers, and, thus, he survived the blast.

Shepard was in the middle, which visibly explodes shortly after Shep is stood in another explosion while at deaths door anyway. The majority of people on the wards would have survived, but Shep isn't on the wards.

[The Heretic of Time]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Indoctrinating Shepard would make the whole thing easy.

No it doesn't.

Argumentum ad Lapidem.

I'm just going to ignore these parts of your comments from now on.

And how does this matter at all? Did you not argue againt Refusal because the Reaper War CANNOT be won conventionally? Did you not saying something about "bacteria on cosmic winds" an all that? The Reapers surely know this as well. So why go through all the trouble if they can just kill Shepard and be done with it?

Just because we cannot win does not mean we cannot do damage.

You also demonstrate a lack of understanding of human psychology.

Argumentum ad hominem.

(see? I can do this too).

How exactly is your understanding of human psychology any superior or more valid than mine? You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that when your hero dies in the battlefield, he's not a matyr, he just lost the battle, which will seriously impact the morale in a negative way. How are you going to refute that?

No, it just doesn't make any sense and I've already pointed out why on multiple occasions (read my long post and try to refute that). You just aren't open to critique on your precious dogma. Like I said, IT is like a religion, a cult. You guys only believe in it because you WANT to believe in it.

Argumentum ad Hominem, Argumentum ad Lapidem, should I go on? I've got more.

Seriously, this is a waste o time. you guys deserve to be trolled, because trying to have a serious argument is a waste of time. It's like trying to play chess with a pidgeon. I make the first move, then the pidgeon lands on the board, knocks over all the pieces, takes a crap on the board and then flies off to claim victory.

[Dam0299]

Lord Goose wrote...

The sheer size of the explosions behind/around the Citadel ring. Regardless of it's origin (either the Crucible exploding or part of the Citadel exploding or both) it's big enough to envelop more than the Docking Ring. Shepard would be atomized by it unless he/she grew at least Cruiser grade kinetic barriers and that's being generous with my speculating.

But the Citadel is not that evaporated by the impact.
http://s55.radikal.r...3bb1ea79851.jpg

(sorry for subtitles, forgot to disable them).

It is seriously damaged, but not completely destroyed.

Also, I didn't mean, that Shepard has personal kinetic barrier. I was talking about this Q&A from unofficial interview.

-Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

-Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive. You should assume that everyone plot-important on the Citadel survived.

So, basically, I do not think it is a huge stretch to assume that room where Shepard was had powerful kinetic barriers, and, thus, he survived the blast.

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

[RavenEyry]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Seriously, this is a waste o time. you guys deserve to be trolled, because trying to have a serious argument is a waste of time. It's like trying to play chess with a pidgeon. I make the first move, then the pidgeon lands on the board, knocks over all the pieces, takes a crap on the board and then flies off to claim victory.

You tried to have a serious argument by coming into the thread and insulting us, then continuing to insult us in every post? You know, doing that in a face-to-face argument generally results in getting punched.

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

snip

Like I said, IT is like a religion, a cult. You guys only believe in it because you WANT to believe in it. But anyone who sees ME3 for what is it (a mediocre game with a horrible and ridiculously bad plot full with plotholes) also sees that the IT is simply a ridiculous attempt at salvaging this completely mediocre story with a crappy ending.

And so what if we are? For what it's worth I think IT is a brilliant interpretation, even if it wasn't Bioware's original intention. But at least we're trying to find something positive about it rather than constantly bashing Bioware for what on face value are incredibly bizarre endings.

Also you forget that works of fiction are not set in stone. If there is enough demand for IT DLC, then Bioware would be fools not to make it, and the game would be improved immesurably as a result.

You could argue that Bioware are already incorporating IT. In the EC version of the beam run, it's even more clear that Harbinger has Shepard at it's mercy. Shepard gets shot point blank by a weapon powerful enough to slice up a dreadnought. Shepard should be a cloud of steam at this point, instead he / she is just slightly singed. And allowed to continue to the beam unhindered.

I think Bioware were making it clear that Harbinger wanted Shepard alive. For what purpose? Hopefully that will be revealed in forthcoming DLC.

Modifié par Eryri, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:09 .

[Arian Dynas]

RavenEyry wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Seriously, this is a waste o time. you guys deserve to be trolled, because trying to have a serious argument is a waste of time. It's like trying to play chess with a pidgeon. I make the first move, then the pidgeon lands on the board, knocks over all the pieces, takes a crap on the board and then flies off to claim victory.

You tried to have a serious argument by coming into the thread and insulting us, then continuing to insult us in every post? You know, doing that in a face-to-face argument generally results in getting punched.

Raven, I'm hitting the sack, dealing with this guy has made me realize how tired I am. Do you mind taking over?

[The Heretic of Time]

lex0r11 wrote...

Come on, Heretic_Hanar.

You come in here calling people cultist and this thread silly and you expect answers?

Mocking posts get mocking responses, it's only appropriate.

Fair enough. Yes, I do mock the IT movement because I think it's just silly to say the least. I do not expect people to react seriously to the mocking parts of my comments.

But I also wrote serious comments with serious rebuttals to that Arian-something guy, because he seemed like a respectable person. Now I have to wonder why I even thought that, because he did not even attempt at refuting my rebuttal. He just waved away my arguments and only focussed on my mockery. At this point I'm still waiting. I doubt he even can refute my serious posts, because lets face it, the evidence for IT is pretty shallow and the IT is pretty easy to refute. You guys are just grasping at straws man, you're grasping at straws so bad that it's not even funny anymore (wait, actually it still is kinda funny).

[Rifneno]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

How exactly is your understanding of human psychology any superior or more valid than mine? You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that when your hero dies in the battlefield, he's not a matyr, he just lost the battle, which will seriously impact the morale in a negative way. How are you going to refute that?

I don't want to feed it, but this part made me lol hard.

[Arian Dynas]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Come on, Heretic_Hanar.

You come in here calling people cultist and this thread silly and you expect answers?

Mocking posts get mocking responses, it's only appropriate.

Fair enough. Yes, I do mock the IT movement because I think it's just silly to say the least. I do not expect people to react seriously to the mocking parts of my comments.

But I also wrote serious comments with serious rebuttals to that Arian-something guy, because he seemed like a respectable person. Now I have to wonder why I even thought that, because he did not even attempt at refuting my rebuttal. He just waved away my arguments and only focussed on my mockery. At this point I'm still waiting. I doubt he even can refute my serious posts, because lets face it, the evidence for IT is pretty shallow and the IT is pretty easy to refute. You guys are just grasping at straws man, you're grasping at straws so bad that it's not even funny anymore (wait, actually it still is kinda funny).

If you want a serious dialogue, you are going about it in completely the wrong direction.

By making the comments you do (we have no issues with dissent, what we take umbrage at is, to be blunt, the stupid ass comments you keep making attempting to sound funny, intelligent or cool) you managed to completely shut down debate. Not evn JUST that, you also remain firmly entrenched on the idea that IT is shallow, meaningless and easily refuted.

It is easy to reduce you to a strawman and make fun of you because you attempted to do the same thing to us.

[Lord Goose]

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

Where are two explosions, actually.

1. Tube explosion (0: 22)

2. Citadel explosion (3 : 00)

First is not really powerful (at very least, it just knocks Shepard off), and if the decision room was protected by barriers it could have withstood the second.

[Arian Dynas]

Anyway. Night all.

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

And so what if we are? For what it's worth I think IT is a brilliant interpretation, even if it wasn't Bioware's original intention. But at least we're trying to find something positive about it rather than constantly bashing Bioware for what on face value are incredibly bizarre endings.

Your grasping at straws man. You try to make something good out of something that was just not that good to begin with. I would have more sympathy for the IT movement if it was indeed only the ending of ME3 that is bizarre. But it isn't. The entire plot of ME3 is just mediocre at best. Why don't we just all admit that ME3 just isn't a good game when it comes to story and plot? Why don't we just all admit that ME3's plot is retarded and full with plot holes, not just the ending?

Also you forget that works of fiction are not set in stone. If there is enough demand for IT DLC, then Bioware would be fools not to make it, and the game would be improved immesurably as a result.

Fiction is set in stone of the authors of the fiction say it is. If BioWare for example would decide to create a canon Shepard who's gay, then canon Shepard is gay, period. That is pretty much set in stone from that point.

In the EC version of the beam run, it's even more clear that Harbinger has Shepard at it's mercy. Shepars gets shot point blank by a weapon powerful enough to slice up a dreadnought. Shepard should be a cloud of steam at this point, instead he / she is just slightly singed.

Which is a sign of bad and inconsistent story writing, not the indoctrination "theory'.

 

I think Bioware were making it clear that Harbinger wanted Shepard alive. For what purpose? Hopefully that will be revealed in forthcoming DLC.

I seriously doubt BioWare was trying to make that clear. Again, I think you're grasping at straws. I think the easy and most likely answer is that BioWare's writing just isn't that very good and is full with inconsistencies, plot holes, retcons and character assassinations.

[RavenEyry]

You want a serious rebuttal to your point that there is no reason to indoctrinate Shep? How about Harbingers stalker level obsession?

[Salient Archer]

Lord Goose wrote...

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

Where are two explosions, actually.

1. Tube explosion (0: 22)

2. Citadel explosion (3 : 00)

First is not really powerful (at very least, it just knocks Shepard off), and if the decision room was protected by barriers it could have withstood the second.

Oh god you did not just say that! - Do they not teach physics and the law of thermodynamics wherever the hell you come from? 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Goose wrote...

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

Where are two explosions, actually.

1. Tube explosion (0: 22)

2. Citadel explosion (3 : 00)

First is not really powerful (at very least, it just knocks Shepard off), and if the decision room was protected by barriers it could have withstood the second.

No, no it could not.

The Citadel is made from Quantum Shielded material, the same material the Relays are amde from. Now this material can withstand the after effects of a Supernova and remain undamaged. Now compare taht to the Citadel which is heavily damaged from the explosion and try thinking of what kind of power there had to behind it.

But even if a barrier was there it would not stop the heat of the explosion and considering the size of the explosion and Shepardd proximity to ground zero he would have been evaporated. You can compare it to beeing at ground zero to the Nukes which hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki except the blast is a couple of thousand times more powerful. 

Also the mere fact that Shepard is lying in the rubble in the Breath Scene means taht if it was the Citadel the explosion would ahve reached him some way since the first explosion is clearly not enough to rip of chunks.

[RavenEyry]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Your grasping at straws man. You try to make something good out of something that was just not that good to begin with. I would have more sympathy for the IT movement if it was indeed only the ending of ME3 that is bizarre. But it isn't. The entire plot of ME3 is just mediocre at best. Why don't we just all admit that ME3 just isn't a good game when it comes to story and plot? Why don't we just all admit that ME3's plot is retarded and full with plot holes, not just the ending?

I wont admit something I don't consider true. I considered the writing to be of generally high quality throughout.

[The Heretic of Time]

Arian Dynas wrote...

 you also remain firmly entrenched on the idea that IT is shallow, meaningless and easily refuted.

Which it is. the IT is easily refuted. I refuted the IT very easily and I haven't even seen you trying to attempt to adress my rebuttal.

Yes, I might have came here with the original intention to troll, but I decided to give your original super long reply to me a fair rebuttal. You might notice that if you look at my first reply to you, I didn't use any strawmen, fallacies or mockery. I just simply went through the facts and refuted all of your arguments one by one. It is also exactly that single post that you seem to be ignoring (intentionally?). You only focus on my other posts because those are easier for you to reply to with witty remarks and Latin words which I start to wonder if you even know the meaning of those words yourself.

So how about you try to give my serious post a serious rebuttal? Can you?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

And so what if we are? For what it's worth I think IT is a brilliant interpretation, even if it wasn't Bioware's original intention. But at least we're trying to find something positive about it rather than constantly bashing Bioware for what on face value are incredibly bizarre endings.

Your grasping at straws man. You try to make something good out of something that was just not that good to begin with. I would have more sympathy for the IT movement if it was indeed only the ending of ME3 that is bizarre. But it isn't. The entire plot of ME3 is just mediocre at best. Why don't we just all admit that ME3 just isn't a good game when it comes to story and plot? Why don't we just all admit that ME3's plot is retarded and full with plot holes, not just the ending?

Ah the good old Anti-IT argument of claiming that there was alot of plot holes but never mentioning even a single one. A classic.

But in regards to the reapers wanting to Indoctrianted Shepard how about this little line from rival, the dlc supposed to tie heavily into ME3? "Struggle as you will Shepard, your mind will be mine." This is heard during the fight around Object Rho.

This one seems pretty clear, dosent it?

Also this little quote from the Indoctriation codex entry:

"Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the
resulting chaos can bring down nations."

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:23 .

[The Heretic of Time]

RavenEyry wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Your grasping at straws man. You try to make something good out of something that was just not that good to begin with. I would have more sympathy for the IT movement if it was indeed only the ending of ME3 that is bizarre. But it isn't. The entire plot of ME3 is just mediocre at best. Why don't we just all admit that ME3 just isn't a good game when it comes to story and plot? Why don't we just all admit that ME3's plot is retarded and full with plot holes, not just the ending?

I wont admit something I don't consider true. I considered the writing to be of generally high quality throughout.

Okay, then just for you, I'll make a new thread about ME3's plot where I'll take the effort to point out every single flaw in ME3's writing. This might take a while though, but expect it to be uploaded later this day.

But if you think ME3's writing is of high quality than I genuinely feel sorry for you. I mean sure the game has epic visuals, epic cutscenes and high quality dialogue, but the plot is just FUBAR. But like I said, I'll adress that in a seperate thread which I'll create later this day.

[Salient Archer]

Salient Archer wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

Where are two explosions, actually.

1. Tube explosion (0: 22)

2. Citadel explosion (3 : 00)

First is not really powerful (at very least, it just knocks Shepard off), and if the decision room was protected by barriers it could have withstood the second.

Oh god you did not just say that! - Do they not teach physics and the law of thermodynamics wherever the hell you come from? 

Also just to save me the hassel of using a long winded explination courtesy of my adept understanding of such things (ex-Pilot by the way) I'll just simply use a codex entry instead:

Kinetic barriers, colloquially called "shields", provide protection against most mass accelerator weapons. Whether on a starship or a soldier's suit of armor, the basic principle remains the same.Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to sit down without knocking away their chair.The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

So no, Kinetic Barriers would not suffice. So even if somehow the heat produced didn't vaproize Shepard (and it would) the thermal radiation wouldn't be doing him any favours.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:25 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Salient Archer wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

Where are two explosions, actually.

1. Tube explosion (0: 22)

2. Citadel explosion (3 : 00)

First is not really powerful (at very least, it just knocks Shepard off), and if the decision room was protected by barriers it could have withstood the second.

Oh god you did not just say that! - Do they not teach physics and the law of thermodynamics wherever the hell you come from? 

So no, Kinetic Barriers would not suffice. If the heat produced didn't vaproize Shepard the thermal radiation wouldn't be doing him any favours.

It is not a question of if, an explosion of that magnitude with Shepard so close to ground zero the heat would have vaporised him, no question.

[The Heretic of Time]

RavenEyry wrote...

You want a serious rebuttal to your point that there is no reason to indoctrinate Shep? How about Harbingers stalker level obsession?

No, I want a serious rebuttal to my point that if indoctrination theory was true, than Refusal should be the logical decision, not destroy. yet Refusal does not lead to Shepard waking up, Destroy does.

I made a very long post explaining this argument directed to that Arian-something guy, but so far he just ignored it and only focussed on my other posts.

[Salient Archer]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

However Shepard was right in the ring in which the explosion originated, not to mention the blast that engulded him/her in flames while shooting the tube to set off the destroy ending.

Where are two explosions, actually.

1. Tube explosion (0: 22)

2. Citadel explosion (3 : 00)

First is not really powerful (at very least, it just knocks Shepard off), and if the decision room was protected by barriers it could have withstood the second.

Oh god you did not just say that! - Do they not teach physics and the law of thermodynamics wherever the hell you come from? 

So no, Kinetic Barriers would not suffice. If the heat produced didn't vaproize Shepard the thermal radiation wouldn't be doing him any favours.

It is not a question of if, an explosion of that magnitude with Shepard so close to ground zero the heat would have vaporised him, no question.

Read above  ^^^

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Salient Archer wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

It is not a question of if, an explosion of that magnitude with Shepard so close to ground zero the heat would have vaporised him, no question.

Read above  ^^^

I did, I just pointed out you said if in regards to his survival chances. There is not if, there is only certainty.

[Eryri]

First of all - thank you for being civil. I will attempt to address your points below, apologies if I screw up the formatting

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Fiction is set in stone of the authors of the fiction say it is. If BioWare for example would decide to create a canon Shepard who's gay, then canon Shepard is gay, period. That is pretty much set in stone from that point.

 

Authors also generally like money. At the moment there is tremendous dissatisfaction with the endings, which will affect the long term viability of the franchise. An IT DLC leading to the kind of uplifting kick - ass victory we all wanted to begin with, would restore Bioware's reputation and pave for the way for ME sequels, movie spins offs etc.

In the EC version of the beam run, it's even more clear that Harbinger has Shepard at it's mercy. Shepars gets shot point blank by a weapon powerful enough to slice up a dreadnought. Shepard should be a cloud of steam at this point, instead he / she is just slightly singed.


Which is a sign of bad and inconsistent story writing, not the indoctrination "theory'.

 

That would not just be bad and inconsistent writing - that would be insane, torch the franchise and run, utterly self destructive, ludicrous writing. I doubt Bioware would allow one of their flag ship titles to be ruined by that kind of shoddy quality control. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit - but I like to think the best of people.
 

I think Bioware were making it clear that Harbinger wanted Shepard alive. For what purpose? Hopefully that will be revealed in forthcoming DLC.


I seriously doubt BioWare was trying to make that clear. Again, I think you're grasping at straws. I think the easy and most likely answer is that BioWare's writing just isn't that very good and is full with inconsistencies, plot holes, retcons and character assassinations.

I agree that the overarching Crucible plot is questionable - but Rannoch and Tuchanka were terrificaly written missions. Bioware are still capable of amazing work. I'm not ready to write ME3 off as a lost cause just yet.

Modifié par Eryri, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:31 .