Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#45226
Eryri

Eryri
  • Members
  • 1 853 messages

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Whereas, if, which I personally think likely, the IT DLC is released, then there would be one canon, and a canon we could all enjoy.


I do not agree. Many of us will be extremely pissed if IT turns out to be true. It basically renders ALL our endings invalid, except for those of you who believe in IT and chose Destroy. I and many others would NOT be happy with that.


I'm afraid I don't understand why you say you would be angry if IT turns out to be true because it would invalidate your endings.

You've already made it clear that you think the endings are terrible and badly written.

Why would you care if they get retconned? You already hate them. How could IT make them any worse for you?

Even if you don't believe Bioware planned the IT, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, it makes sense to support it for completely pragmatic reasons.

It will enable Bioware to release a new ending - one where Shepard wakes up, picks up his/her gun and gets to kick ass with some more actual combat and a proper boss fight.

Sure you'd have to sit through the annoying fake citadel sequence and the starbrat when ever you replayed the game, but if the true ending that follows is action-packed game play it should take the bad taste away.

Would you really be upset if this happens? It seems a win-win situation all around to me.

We get a great, fun, exciting ending. Bioware regains their reputation and sales. They can save face and still remake the ending while keeping their "artistic integrity" by claiming that this was their plan all along. Everybody's happy!

#45227
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

smokingotter1 wrote...
(Shepard gets "hit" by Object Rho, is shown visions of Reapers Arrival)

Posted Image

What's that? A background obscuring white light signalling entering a dream as early as ME2 DLC? These oversights and coincidences really start to mount up sometimes.

#45228
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

CoolioThane wrote...

You do understand though, labelling someone's beliefs as retarded is one of the mot offensive things you can do.


Well, maybe, but I can't help myself. I've read a few of those religious holy books from cover to cover and I can't help but wondering how people can actually believe this crap.

With regards to religion it's an incredibly dangerous point of view to hold.


How so? Because some religious terrorist nutjob might blow me up? It's that's why it's dangerous?

I for one think no beliefs are retarded, even if I disagree with them. It's their life. Could you explain why IT is retarded though?


Fair enough. And yes, I can explain why I think IT is retarded.

First of all, BioWare has never shown any particularily deep writing in Mass Effect. It was all pretty basic, standard and sometimes even shallow space opera stuff. Sometimes they bring up a philosophical subject about "what is life" and that sort of stuff, but never anything I haven't seen before in other blockbuster space operas. The IT does not fit within this picture. It's so completely out of style that I think it's obvious the writers never intended it that way.

Remember, we're talking about Mass Effect here, an action-packed be the epic hero and choose your own adventure blockbuster type of game, not some other kind of artsy-fartsy cult type of game (I'm talking about this cut, not this cult).

Second of all, if the IT is true it means BioWare has basically shipped a game without an ending. The game would be incomplete. Surely BioWare wouldn't be crazy enough to go that far, would they? It also goes against all known conventional story writing setups, which is something you can expect in a cult movie of indie-game, but not in an international bestselling blockbuster series.

Third, I think it's clear that BioWare is aiming at the mainstream gamers with ME3. They try to appeal to the so-called "CoD crowd". An unorthodox ending (that isn't really an ending) is nothing something you do when you try to make a best-selling blockbuster that appeals to the "CoD crowd". 

Also, with the release of the EC I think it is clear BioWare never intended to pull of a stunt like the indoctrination theory. BioWare also said they're not going to change the endings, period.
Based on the fact that BioWare did not come up with the IT themselves, nor do they plan to change their endings because they "believe in the artific vision of their team" , I think it's very clear that we can simply put the IT to rest. It's not gonna happen. Yet people keep insisting that the IT is true. I find that stubborn and slightly retarded.

I believe you to be wrong there. IT wouldn't render your ending invalid, as each choice, according to the IT, does something to Shepard. Whether indoctrinated or not, your choice still matters. I still don't see how anyone could be angry at that.


How does the IT not invalidate my choice for Control? If you guys get what you wish, it would mean my ending leads to sudden death for Shepard and a lame-ass Game Over screen because I chose the wrong answer, now my Shepard is indoctrinated, trololololololol.

You see, with the current endings, there are no wrong choices. In fact, there never was a single wrong choice in Mass Effect, just different approaches, which is what I loved about Mass Effect. I could be who I wanted to be and  not being punished for it in any severe way. I could be myself and still manage to save the galaxy. That's awesome. 

That's another reason why I think the IT is retarded. It would invalidate 3 choices, 3 different choices leading to a "game-over haha your Shepard is indoctrinated lolololol you should have picked Destroy sucker trolololol" -screen or ending. That's totally NOT what Mass Effect is like and it's also completely pointless. Why in the world would BioWare ever make 3 of their 4 endings obsolete? Why can't you see how bad that would be?

No, I know pessimists can be happy, it's just the negativity spreads as much as positivity, and negative people can really bring people down, even if they themselves are happy. Not calling you selfish or anything, just saying it can affect people in a negative way (ignore the pun)


I don't see myself as a negative person. I don't think pessimism = negativity. But that's just me. Maybe pessimism isn't the right choice of words. I rather call myself a skeptical person.

Yeah, that's what I am, I'm skeptical, not pessimistic persee.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:43 .


#45229
Humakt83

Humakt83
  • Members
  • 1 893 messages

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.


Ok. The first signs.

#45230
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.


Ok. The first signs.


Was that first whisper femsheps voice?

Modifié par RavenEyry, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .


#45231
Guest_Flog61_*

Guest_Flog61_*
  • Guests
Leave this thread heretic hanar; create a thread on how we 'are all wrong' or something, just don't come to ours purely for the point of stirring

#45232
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages
I just watched Puella Magi Madoka Magica and I have to say the similarities with ME are interesting, especially with the control ending ^^

#45233
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.


Ok. The first signs.

As I hear it the whispers seem to precede ("destruction") what Shepard is about to say as if something or someone is telling him what to say. Really weird. Plus, whispers as a sign of indoctrination were already known during the ME1 timeframe (somewhere in the Codex).

Modifié par paxxton, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .


#45234
Rosewind

Rosewind
  • Members
  • 1 801 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
(Shepard gets "hit" by Object Rho, is shown visions of Reapers Arrival)

Posted Image

What's that? A background obscuring white light signalling entering a dream as early as ME2 DLC? These oversights and coincidences really start to mount up sometimes.


You know they been using those white screens in Dragon AGe to btw.

#45235
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I just watched Puella Magi Madoka Magica and I have to say the similarities with ME are interesting, especially with the control ending ^^

LOL. What a title. Posted Image

#45236
Guest_Flog61_*

Guest_Flog61_*
  • Guests

RavenEyry wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.


Ok. The first signs.


Was that first whisper femsheps voice?


I don't hear it, can you clarify for the intellectually challenged? Posted Image

#45237
Humakt83

Humakt83
  • Members
  • 1 893 messages

Flog61 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Ok. The first signs.


Was that first whisper femsheps voice?


I don't hear it, can you clarify for the intellectually challenged? Posted Image


"I saw,"  -  a whisper 'saw'  - " I'm not sure what I saw. Death." - some odd noise - "Destruction. Nothing's really clear."

And no, the first whisper doesn't sound anything like femshep IMO.

 

Modifié par Humakt83, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .


#45238
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.

Posted that about a month ago... people didn't care much about it then either.

#45239
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I just watched Puella Magi Madoka Magica and I have to say the similarities with ME are interesting, especially with the control ending ^^

LOL. What a title. Posted Image

It's an anime, so it's nothing unusual.

#45240
Guest_Flog61_*

Guest_Flog61_*
  • Guests
Guys, I bet most of you have already read this, but on a thread where someone was trying to stir up the IT folks, a bioware mod replied with this:

"The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”."

Thoughts?

Does this mean they will never confirm IT as canon? The last line?

#45241
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

paxxton wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.


Ok. The first signs.

As I hear it the whispers seem to precede ("destruction") what Shepard is about to say as if something or someone is telling him what to say. Really weird. Plus, whispers as a sign of indoctrination were already known during the ME1 timeframe (somewhere in the Codex).

Also it doesn't matter what you choose, Shep always says the same.

#45242
smokingotter1

smokingotter1
  • Members
  • 735 messages

Rosewind wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
(Shepard gets "hit" by Object Rho, is shown visions of Reapers Arrival)

Posted Image

What's that? A background obscuring white light signalling entering a dream as early as ME2 DLC? These oversights and coincidences really start to mount up sometimes.


You know they been using those white screens in Dragon AGe to btw.


Never got into Dragon Age.... point is this is a symbolism of reaper influence.

So they used it in Dragon Age. Did they use it when Shepard died from the collector attack (ME2 was made after DA)? Nope. When Shepard was brought back to life? Nope. Prothean visions (ME1)? Nope.

Spielberg has done many movies, but each movie has different symbolism that would not make sense outside that movie universe. I don't know what context the white halo was used in DA, maybe it was when the main character was drinking it up with hobbits (again never played DA). DA had different writers also, BW seems to deliberately use this effect for a different purpose again and again and again.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .


#45243
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

Flog61 wrote...

Guys, I bet most of you have already read this, but on a thread where someone was trying to stir up the IT folks, a bioware mod replied with this:

"The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”."

Thoughts?

Does this mean they will never confirm IT as canon? The last line?

Yes and they said so many times.

#45244
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

Flog61 wrote...
Does this mean they will never confirm IT as canon? The last line?


I've thought since EC that bioware put in the possibility of indoctrination and then let players decide for themselves how they interpret the ending. A couple of comments like that pretty much confirm it for me.

#45245
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

smokingotter1 wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
(Shepard gets "hit" by Object Rho, is shown visions of Reapers Arrival)

Posted Image

What's that? A background obscuring white light signalling entering a dream as early as ME2 DLC? These oversights and coincidences really start to mount up sometimes.


You know they been using those white screens in Dragon AGe to btw.


Never got into Dragon Age.... point is this is a symbolism of reaper influence.

So they used it in Dragon Age. Did they use it when Shepard died from the collector attack (ME2 was made after DA)? Nope. When Shepard was brought back to life? Nope. Prothean visions (ME1)? Nope.

Spielberg has done many movies, but each movie has different symbolism that would not make sense outside that movie universe. I don't know what context the white halo was used in DA, maybe it was when the main character was drinking it up with hobbits (again never played DA). DA had different writers also, BW seems to deliberately use this effect for a different purpose again and again and again.

"Examining the strange Prothean artifact reveals a small, irregular slot on the underside of the surface. Remembering the strange trinket you received from the asari Consort on the Citadel, you pull it out and place it in the slot. The ball explodes in a brilliant flash of white light, momentarily blinding you and disorienting you."

#45246
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

Eryri wrote...

I'm afraid I don't understand why you say you would be angry if IT turns out to be true because it would invalidate your endings.

You've already made it clear that you think the endings are terrible and badly written.

Why would you care if they get retconned? You already hate them. How could IT make them any worse for you?


I don't hate or dislike the endings. I dislike the plot of ME3 in general. The mediocre endings we have are only a logical conclusion from the mediocre plot that BioWare decided to go with. I think with the EC BioWare did a decent job to make the best of the endings without changing the entire plot. What we have now in the EC is the best we can expect.

 The IT does not make for a better ending, not at all. It would be terrible game-design and an incredible break in styule to say the least.

First of all, with the IT you render 3 out of 4 decisions obsolete. The whole Catalyst part and those decisions would become completely pointless, because we now know we have to pick Destroy or else we'll get a glorified "game over, Shepard is indoctrinated, the reapers win, you suck for not picking Destroy, trolololololol". It's also completely out of style for Mass Effect, where every decision you made was valid and reflected who you are and what you wanted to achieve and how you wanted to achieve it. Mass Effect never gives you "bad choices" and "wrong choices", only "diplomatic and morally sound choices" and "ruthless morally questionable choices". Both choices were always equally valid and never fundamentally harmed the player's effort in any way. To change that at the very end is just horrible game-design. It's not smart, it's just bad.

Even if you don't believe Bioware planned the IT, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, it makes sense to support it for completely pragmatic reasons.


Are you serious?

It will enable Bioware to release a new ending - one where Shepard wakes up, picks up his/her gun and gets to kick ass with some more actual combat and a proper boss fight.


It also makes a part of their game completely pointless and it also completely breaks the style they've been using so far for 3 games. In other words, it's bad game-design.

Sure you'd have to sit through the annoying fake citadel sequence and the starbrat when ever you replayed the game, but if the true ending that follows is action-packed game play it should take the bad taste away.


Then why not dump the entire Citadel sequence and just completely retcon the ending? BioWare could just as easily do that and it would make the game better than when you implement the horribly bad IT.


Would you really be upset if this happens? It seems a win-win situation all around to me.


Not to me.

We get a great, fun, exciting ending.


While ditching 3 other decent endings which will result in a lot of pissed-off people who are perfectly content with the current endings after the EC.

Bioware regains their reputation and sales.


No they won't. They'll get heavily criticized for selling an incomplete game without the real ending. People are already mad about Day-One DLC and on-disc DLC content (what Capcom does). Imagine the outrage if it turns out we have an incomplete game without the real ending. Wanna see the real ending? Get the Indoctrination DLC! It only costs 10 bucks! Yeaahhhhhhhhhhno. Just no.

They can save face and still remake the ending while keeping their "artistic integrity" by claiming that this was their plan all along. Everybody's happy!


This was obviously not their plan all along, that much is very clear, specially after the release of the EC. If they're going to retcon their EC now by lying that the silly IT ending DLC was their plan all along (which we no doubt will have to pay for), I'm going to give BioWare the finger and never buy any game of them ever again. I don't like getting f*cked as a customer by some greedy company who lies and tries to rip me off by selling the ending of their game in a DLC months after the release of the original game.

But I don't worry. because this is an extremely unrealisric assumption. It's very obvious the IT ending DLC is never gonna happen and that the IT is just a bad fan-fic. I dare to bet 200 bucks and my entire Mass Effect goody collection on that.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:10 .


#45247
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.


Ok. The first signs.

As I hear it the whispers seem to precede ("destruction") what Shepard is about to say as if something or someone is telling him what to say. Really weird. Plus, whispers as a sign of indoctrination were already known during the ME1 timeframe (somewhere in the Codex).

Also it doesn't matter what you choose, Shep always says the same.

Given the choices it's understandable. Does he say that exactly the same way?

#45248
CoolioThane

CoolioThane
  • Members
  • 2 537 messages
Heretic...you seem to be going on a rant again.

I believe it's dangerous to hold that view about religion because it would offend a **** load of people! Which is a bad thing obviously.

Hmm, Mass Effect 3 is full of deep writing, especially if you look at all of the tiny details, msot of these are on the Tv Tropes page if you fancy a look, like the Quarian orphan, and Joker's sister etc. It's very, very deep there. Thus it's hard to believe they would screw up the ending...ergo IT.

Bioware would do this. Think og the publicity thus money. Perfection, and bridges the gap between gaming and real life...unprecedented. Fantastic, make the player feel what Shepard feels ;)

The EC was unplanned. They didn't expect such an outcry. It has worked in satiating the angry, let's wait for the IT.

Mate, whatever Bioware does in the ME Universe after ME3 will invalidate three choices...Indoctrination doesn't invalidate any, it explains them, why you were wrong...or they could go the way of other games where the choice changes the end mission for you or whatevs. I believe Destroy is the only option though. Control/Synthesis indoc, refuse is a mystery.

#45249
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...
"Examining the strange Prothean artifact reveals a small, irregular slot on the underside of the surface. Remembering the strange trinket you received from the asari Consort on the Citadel, you pull it out and place it in the slot. The ball explodes in a brilliant flash of white light, momentarily blinding you and disorienting you."

Thinking on this, recall that most reaper artifacts were assumed to be prothean in ME1.

#45250
smokingotter1

smokingotter1
  • Members
  • 735 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
(Shepard gets "hit" by Object Rho, is shown visions of Reapers Arrival)

Posted Image

What's that? A background obscuring white light signalling entering a dream as early as ME2 DLC? These oversights and coincidences really start to mount up sometimes.


You know they been using those white screens in Dragon AGe to btw.


Never got into Dragon Age.... point is this is a symbolism of reaper influence.

So they used it in Dragon Age. Did they use it when Shepard died from the collector attack (ME2 was made after DA)? Nope. When Shepard was brought back to life? Nope. Prothean visions (ME1)? Nope.

Spielberg has done many movies, but each movie has different symbolism that would not make sense outside that movie universe. I don't know what context the white halo was used in DA, maybe it was when the main character was drinking it up with hobbits (again never played DA). DA had different writers also, BW seems to deliberately use this effect for a different purpose again and again and again.

"Examining the strange Prothean artifact reveals a small, irregular slot on the underside of the surface. Remembering the strange trinket you received from the asari Consort on the Citadel, you pull it out and place it in the slot. The ball explodes in a brilliant flash of white light, momentarily blinding you and disorienting you."


I wonder if that was actually reaper tech... remember the citadel races believed that the protheans built the mass relays and the citadel which (spoiler alert!) was not true.