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[MegumiAzusa]

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.

Ok. The first signs.

As I hear it the whispers seem to precede ("destruction") what Shepard is about to say as if something or someone is telling him what to say. Really weird. Plus, whispers as a sign of indoctrination were already known during the ME1 timeframe (somewhere in the Codex).

Also it doesn't matter what you choose, Shep always says the same.

Given the choices it's understandable. Does he say that exactly the same way?

Didn't test it in depth but afaik yes. You could say Shepard was controlled at that moment.

Btw in the flashback of Eletania it is made clear that the Reapers don't just kill technologically advanced races but primitives too:
"It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again."

[Lokanaiya]

Guys, remember, don't feed the troll. It's obvious he's never going to listen or actually think about our evidence.

[RavenEyry]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Guys, remember, don't feed the troll. It's obvious he's never going to listen or actually think about our evidence.

Second part true, but also remember that not everyone who disagrees with us is a troll. Heretic Hanar is a jerk no doubt, but I don't think they're a troll. (Except for that first post which they've admitted was trolling)

[MegumiAzusa]

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
"Examining the strange Prothean artifact reveals a small, irregular slot on the underside of the surface. Remembering the strange trinket you received from the asari Consort on the Citadel, you pull it out and place it in the slot. The ball explodes in a brilliant flash of white light, momentarily blinding you and disorienting you."

Thinking on this, recall that most reaper artifacts were assumed to be prothean in ME1.

Could be, it says "that the strange bird returns" not "a" or "similar" but "that". Also it's made clear it's a Reaper from the way it's weapon is described. We also know Prothean tech and architecture is shard like, and the Spheres completely break that. Reaper tech on the other hand has several round objects. Furthermore it is indicated the Attendants at the Consort's are indoctrinated to assume their position.

[Humakt83]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Btw in the flashback of Eletania it is made clear that the Reapers don't just kill technologically advanced races but primitives too:

That flashback could also just be a Prothean ship. But it should be evident that Reapers have caused untold number of under developed species go extinct simply by waging a galactic war.

And they use Harvesters.

Flog61 wrote...

Does this mean they will never confirm IT as canon? The last line?

Who knows but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

Modifié par Humakt83, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Humakt83 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Btw in the flashback of Eletania it is made clear that the Reapers don't just kill technologically advanced races but primitives too:

That flashback could also just be a Prothean ship. But it should be evident that Reapers have caused untold number of under developed species go extinct simply by waging galactic war.

And they use Harvesters.

You completely ignore the description of the weapon used which is too similar to Reaper weapons and how you get blasted several times in ME3.

[MaximizedAction]

Flog61 wrote...

I'm putting this again, since few people answered:

Guys, I bet most of you have already read this, but on a thread where someone was trying to stir up the IT folks, a bioware mod replied with this:

"The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”."

Thoughts?

Does this mean they will never confirm IT as canon? The last line?

While it is very 'arty' of them to remain ambiguous and repeat the line "we have one rule, and that is that there is no canon". IT however, in most of its varieties demands that at some point, they will have to take a stand.
That is because otherwise, the Reapers might not be defeated, yet. So if they remain silent, we do not know if we actually got the game we were promised. And this is a bit heavier than "So was Deckard a replicant or not?"

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

I like your new avatar.

[Humakt83]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You completely ignore the description of the weapon used which is too similar to Reaper weapons and how you get blasted several times in ME3.

I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be".

It is a prothean device that memorized the event, which likely means it was Prothean ship. But Protheans had handy ability of being able to study objects by simply touching them. Maybe the prehistoric human existed in cycle before Protheans.

[FifthBeatle]

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Btw, Humakt83, you should bring that video with whispers from ME1 up again. Seems people didn't notice it.

Ok. The first signs.

As I hear it the whispers seem to precede ("destruction") what Shepard is about to say as if something or someone is telling him what to say. Really weird. Plus, whispers as a sign of indoctrination were already known during the ME1 timeframe (somewhere in the Codex).

Also it doesn't matter what you choose, Shep always says the same.

Given the choices it's understandable. Does he say that exactly the same way?

I don't know how relevant this is, but there are also whispers when Shepard encounters the Rachni Queen on Noveria. Sure it isn't the Reapers, but the dead Asari is under the control of someone else when we hear whispers which is somewhat similar to when someone is indoctrinated. 

[MaximizedAction]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I like your new avatar.

Thanks! Didn't make it, It's from http://rustycharles.....com/#/d4ul5ny.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[The Heretic of Time]

CoolioThane wrote...

Heretic...you seem to be going on a rant again.

You're right. I really should not get worked up over something so insignificant and silly.

I believe it's dangerous to hold that view about religion because it would offend a **** load of people! Which is a bad thing obviously.

The bible and the quran also offend a ton load of people. They are among the most offensive books I've ever read. Not to mention that these same religious people try to take away the rights of gay people and try to oppress anyone who doesn't believe in their silly book, even going so far as to contracticing science with their own silly "theory" and demanding that their "theory" also gets taught at schools. Imagine the horror if that would truly happen. I don't want my children to be taught about "the controversy". There is no controversy. Intelligent Design is bullcrap and the Theory of Evolution is the only valid explanation science has found to the diversity of life.

But lets stop about this. This is getting off-topic and I'm sure religious discussions are not allowed on BSN. So this is the last thing I'll say about this. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

Hmm, Mass Effect 3 is full of deep writing, especially if you look at all of the tiny details, msot of these are on the Tv Tropes page if you fancy a look, like the Quarian orphan, and Joker's sister etc. It's very, very deep there. Thus it's hard to believe they would screw up the ending...ergo IT.

That's not deep, it's just some nice extra details. If we look at the general plot of Mass Effect we see a lot of silly and cheap plot devices, rectons, screw-ups, specially in ME3. Cerberus must have been the most shallow and stupid antagonist ever, not to mention that it plain didn't make any sense. And how BioWare turned TIM, my favorite ME2 character, into a shallow, cliche, cardboard-cutout villain who's basically just a copy of Saren's character and plot (Saren 2.0) just plain pissed me off.

Bioware would do this. Think og the publicity thus money. Perfection, and bridges the gap between gaming and real life...unprecedented. Fantastic, make the player feel what Shepard feels

No one is going to buy an incomplete game. Do you honestly think people will attempt at buying Mass Effect 3 now after hearing that the game is incomplete and the real ending has to be bought seperately in DLC? Yeaaahhhhhhhno. And people who already have Mass Effect 3 will only get pissed off. Most of us won't buy an IT ending DLC because it would be cheap, not to say just plain bad and horrible game-design-wise.

The EC was unplanned. They didn't expect such an outcry. It has worked in satiating the angry, let's wait for the IT.

People were already talking a lot about the IT before the EC. BioWare said they won't change their endings several times. When the EC was announced, they still said they won't change the endings, only enhance them, make them longer. Now the EC is released and BioWare kept true to their word. Enhanced endings and no sign of the IT. You know, if BioWare wanted to use the IT (planned or not), then the EC would have been the perfect opportunity to reveal a bit about the truth of the IT. They didn't. There is nothing in the EC that really adds to the IT, only more straw grasping from the IT believes, but no clear hint, clue or indication that the IT is true. This to me made it obvious that he IT is never going to happen.

Besides, didn't BioWare themselves say that they're not going to comment on whether the IT is true or not? They want to leave it open to our interpetation. I don't think that's ever going to change with any DLC. So don't get your hopes up for a IT DLC, just don't and spare yourself the agony.

Mate, whatever Bioware does in the ME Universe after ME3 will invalidate three choices...Indoctrination doesn't invalidate any, it explains them, why you were wrong...or they could go the way of other games where the choice changes the end mission for you or whatevs. I believe Destroy is the only option though. Control/Synthesis indoc, refuse is a mystery.

Which is exactly my point. The IT invalidates my ending by flat out telling me I was wrong and I should feel bad. Now I'm forced ot pick Destroy if I want to continue Shepard's journey. What kind of bullsh*t is that?!?!? Don't you see how incredibly retarded that is? Why not just get rid of the entire Catalyst and just simply retcon the ending completely? That would make even more sense than the IT, which would render the entire final decision completely pointless. Not to say that it's completely against the established gameplay mechanics of Mass Effect, where basically there are no bad choices, every choice is equally vadid. You can be who you want to be without being told outright that you're wrong. THAT is the basic premise of Mass Effect and BioWare should NEVER break that.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Humakt83 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You completely ignore the description of the weapon used which is too similar to Reaper weapons and how you get blasted several times in ME3.

I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be".

It is a prothean device that memorized the event, which likely means it was Prothean ship. But Protheans had handy ability of being able to study objects by simply touching them. Maybe the prehistoric human existed in cycle before Protheans.

"I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be"."
"It is a prothean device"
You cannot tell if it's really a prothean device, your first sentence is therefor a lie.

[MaximizedAction]

I see a lot of crumbs on the floor, looks like trollfodder...

But at least it got the thread going again.

[smokingotter1]

Speaking of symbolism. From the codex about indoctrination: "...the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with
superstitious awe." It's time to praise the reapers! Hallelujah!




Testify!


Believe in the reapers and all your sins will be forgiven...honest.

He's falling for it...

Praise be to the reapers! Look Shepard is taking "a leap of faith!" A true believer indeed

[legaldinho]

I know it's old fashioned to go back to the ending and continue to riff along the lines of the TIM dialogue fight being a figurative effort, representing Shepard's inner struggle to "stay focused" etc. In my view this is still the biggest piece of evidence that ME3's ending was deliberately crafted so as to allow for an alternative interpretation that Shep is fighting indoctrination.

I've seen plenty said, very legitimately, about camera angles, "they're controlling you!" lines, TIM and Anderson bodies falling in symmetric poses etc... and - not enough, frankly- about the totally dreamlike quality of the sequence from start to finish.

But on my last 2 playthroughs I did notice one thing, which I hadn't before. Everytime, I make TIM kill himself. And when he does kill himself, the camera angles get very funny.

When TIM says "I tried, Shepard", he holds the gun up by his head. The next camera angle is of Shep doing some strange acting, but also with a gun by her side. Hard to believe the camera is looking past TIM's gun and at Shep. Anyhoo, first piece of strangeness. The next thing is that as TIM kills himself, Shep is pointing the gun right at him, and then down after the shot. Exactly as if she'd shot him.

Here's a video:



Go to 5:58 onwards.

I doubt I'm the first to post this. But since I didn't notice it before, focusing as I did on TIM's head, not on Shep, it might be useful for some out there.

[Humakt83]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You completely ignore the description of the weapon used which is too similar to Reaper weapons and how you get blasted several times in ME3.

I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be".

It is a prothean device that memorized the event, which likely means it was Prothean ship. But Protheans had handy ability of being able to study objects by simply touching them. Maybe the prehistoric human existed in cycle before Protheans.

"I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be"."
"It is a prothean device"
You cannot tell if it's really a prothean device, your first sentence is therefor a lie.

Examining the strange Prothean artifact reveals a small, irregular slot on the underside of the surface. Remembering the strange trinket you received from the asari Consort on the Citadel, you pull it out and place it in the slot. The ball explodes in a brilliant flash of white light, momentarily blinding you and disorienting you. 

Eletania

Maybe it isn't Prothean artifact, but I won't either spell out my every thought for you.

[RavenEyry]

legaldinho wrote...
 The next thing is that as TIM kills himself, Shep is pointing the gun right at him, and then down after the shot. Exactly as if she'd shot him.

Shep was pointing their gun at him the whole time and then lowers it when it's not needed anymore. I find the funky shadows in that scene more interesting.

[MegumiAzusa]

legaldinho wrote...

I know it's old fashioned to go back to the ending and continue to riff along the lines of the TIM dialogue fight being a figurative effort, representing Shepard's inner struggle to "stay focused" etc. In my view this is still the biggest piece of evidence that ME3's ending was deliberately crafted so as to allow for an alternative interpretation that Shep is fighting indoctrination.

I've seen plenty said, very legitimately, about camera angles, "they're controlling you!" lines, TIM and Anderson bodies falling in symmetric poses etc... and - not enough, frankly- about the totally dreamlike quality of the sequence from start to finish.

But on my last 2 playthroughs I did notice one thing, which I hadn't before. Everytime, I make TIM kill himself. And when he does kill himself, the camera angles get very funny.

When TIM says "I tried, Shepard", he holds the gun up by his head. The next camera angle is of Shep doing some strange acting, but also with a gun by her side. Hard to believe the camera is looking past TIM's gun and at Shep. Anyhoo, first piece of strangeness. The next thing is that as TIM kills himself, Shep is pointing the gun right at him, and then down after the shot. Exactly as if she'd shot him.

Here's a video:



Go to 5:58 onwards.

I doubt I'm the first to post this. But since I didn't notice it before, focusing as I did on TIM's head, not on Shep, it might be useful for some out there.

The gun is pointed at Anderson who is right next to TIM, and Shep shakes her head in disbelief. She just said she knows he is stronger, also there is always another way.

[Rosewind]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Speaking of symbolism. From the codex about indoctrination: "...the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with
superstitious awe." It's time to praise the reapers! Hallelujah!
Praise be to the reapers! Look Shepard is taking "a leap of faith!" A true believer indeed

\\

I should go......

[MegumiAzusa]

Humakt83 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You completely ignore the description of the weapon used which is too similar to Reaper weapons and how you get blasted several times in ME3.

I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be".

It is a prothean device that memorized the event, which likely means it was Prothean ship. But Protheans had handy ability of being able to study objects by simply touching them. Maybe the prehistoric human existed in cycle before Protheans.

"I don't deal in absolutes unless I'm certain. I said "could be"."
"It is a prothean device"
You cannot tell if it's really a prothean device, your first sentence is therefor a lie.

Examining the strange Prothean artifact reveals a small, irregular slot on the underside of the surface. Remembering the strange trinket you received from the asari Consort on the Citadel, you pull it out and place it in the slot. The ball explodes in a brilliant flash of white light, momentarily blinding you and disorienting you. 

Eletania

Maybe it isn't Prothean artifact, but I won't either spell out my every thought for you.

You completely ignore that many things believed to be Prothean aren't Prothean. You cannot know. And your last sentence contradicts what you said about the first I quoted.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

legaldinho wrote...
 The next thing is that as TIM kills himself, Shep is pointing the gun right at him, and then down after the shot. Exactly as if she'd shot him.

Shep was pointing their gun at him the whole time and then lowers it when it's not needed anymore. I find the funky shadows in that scene more interesting.

Indeed, most noteably the "oily shadows" appear around TIM at one point during that scene, the very moment he admits/realizes he is Indoctrinated. I always found that curious.

[Dam0299]

I always imagined during the scene between Anderson and TIM, TIM would say "Shepard, I am your father, let us control the reapers and rule the galaxy as father and son/daughter."

[RavenEyry]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

legaldinho wrote...
 The next thing is that as TIM kills himself, Shep is pointing the gun right at him, and then down after the shot. Exactly as if she'd shot him.

Shep was pointing their gun at him the whole time and then lowers it when it's not needed anymore. I find the funky shadows in that scene more interesting.

Indeed, most noteably the "oily shadows" appear around TIM at one point during that scene, the very moment he admits/realizes he is Indoctrinated. I always found that curious.

I was more referring to the shadows of the characters which seem to point in random directions, at odds with the light source. After TIM dies Shep and Andersons shadows line up.