55528 réponses à ce sujet

[TJBartlemus]

RoboticWays wrote...

If the control ending cant happen because the catalyst "is lying" like you guys say, why would Bioware even put in a scene showing the reapers flying away, and rebuilding all of the stuff, and with the Shepard VI talking? Come on guys, You're just like the conspiracy theorists nuts that believe 9/11 was organized by our government.

Just a warning, bringing 9/11 into this is probably not a good idea. Many had friends that were related to that incident and it's still a touchy subject. 

Well the idea is that the ending scenes are the Reapers still feeding you images so that Shepard believes that he made the right choice and finally let his mind go to the Reapers.

P.S. You still have yet to acnowledge my post at the top of the last page. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[Simon_Says]

Look at what happened. You fed Heretic Hanar and now he's here to stay.

He can't distinguish IT as Bioware's intended interpretation of the ending and IT as just a fan interpretation of the ending. A fan interpretation that plugs up the plot holes and makes ME3 thematically consistent with the rest of the series. Hanar, I agree that Bioware didn't expect or intend the fans to think their ending was an indoctrination attempt when they launched the game. But I support IT because story wise it makes more sense to me. Consider...

The Starbrat has taken the form of the child from Earth. This image holds emotional weight for Shepard as plainly depicted in the dreams. There is no way for the reapers to have physically seen Shepard's interaction with this child in the vent and to extrapolate that his likeness would haunt Shepard's dreams. Even in the scenario that they did see Shepard interacting with the child/seeing the child die, why then did they not shoot Shepard down right then when they had the opportunity?

Therefore something irregular is going on in Shepard's head during the whole Crucible chamber sequence. Either some entity that is not Shepard has acquired the image of the child's likeness and voice from Shepard's mind and used it to present itself (in which case we must then ask why it specifically chose to present itself as the child, and also how this image was acquired) or it was Shepard's own consciousness that has endowed the Starbrat with the child's likeness. (In which case odd mental shenanigans are still going down. Seeing things not as they are but as your mind sees them is usually associated with mental disorder.)

Either way it's irrelevant. Shepard was not seeing pure, unmodified reality during the Crucible chamber sequence. This much is certain. And from this premise the rest of IT follows.

• What is the thematic purpose of the child, the dreams, and the Starbrat?
• Why does TIM try so hard throughout ME3 to convince Shepard that Control is the way to go? Why did Saren similarily advocate Synthesis in ME1?
• Why didn't Harbinger outright kill/destroy Shepard and the Normandy during The Run?
• Why do scenes and images reminiscent of Shepard's dreams and memories keep appearing throughout end sequences?
• Why does the 'Conduit' not resemble any other mass relay device we've seen?
• Why does it send Shepard straight to the Citadel control panel?
• How do Anderson and TIM reach that control panel despite Shepard taking the only route to it? (Why don't we see the Citdel "moving, changing"?)
• What is the purpose of showing Shepard's gut wound that we never saw inflicted on Shepard, yet mirrors the wound Shepard inflicted on Anderson?
• Why does the Starbrat dialogue flip the themes and goals of the series completely on their head?
• Why should we believe or trust the Starbrat when it admits it's the leader of the enemy?
• Why was the Starbrat's character even introduced to the series in the first place?
• Why is Synthesis presented so positively when it wasn't the goal of the series, and carries its own significant moral pitfalls?
• Why is Control also presented positively when it fundamentally represents accepting the reapers as a neccesary presence in galactic affairs?
• Why is Destroy presented negatively when both EDI and the Geth a) demonstrated the Starbrat's argument about organic/synthetic conflict to be false (invalidating "the peace won't last") and both were ready and willing to die if it meant ending the reaper threat (thus it's not 'genocide', it's just sacrifice).
• Why does Shepard survive even when the Starbrat pretty much states that they wouldn't.
• In destroy, how does Shepard survive being at Space Magic Ground Zero? And how and why does Shepard wake up in rubble that looks exactly like the rubble on Earth?
• After spending so much time in close proximity to reapers and other indoctrinating technology, how has Shepard not been affected by indoctrination to some degree?
• What is the thematic purpose of indoctrination throughout the series if it wasn't building up to something more than "Bad Guys R Us"?

Indoctrination Theory provides answers to these and more. Bioware may not have come up with such an elegant solution, but we did. What then, is your problem with it?

Modifié par Simon_Says, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:24 .

[Priss Blackburne]

RoboticWays wrote...

It's just like the ending to Inception, is he dreaming or is he not? The top hasn't stopped spinning yet. Bioware will never dismiss the claims of this theory because its fun for people to speculate about. Yet I honestly am not willing to believe that Bioware intentionally did this.

waa? so they did intend speculation, but they didn't?

A form of indoctrination was planned from the begining. even says so in the "Last Hours" documentary. They cut a sequence from it as it was hard to implement with dialogue. Does not mean they dropped the idea entirely. Even if they did drop the idea they still left the hints in the game pertaining to it.

why is it everyone arguing against IT never fully reads up, or understands it?
Arguing why the scenes for all the endings when it's explained in the Theory why.

I miss the informed people arguing..they where fun.

edit : I feel like a broken record explaining the same things everyday

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:23 .

[UltimateTobi]

I am back! And after 2 hours of playing SOASER and 2 hours of Burger King, this discussion is still going on? I am amazed, surprised and saddened at the same time.

[The Heretic of Time]

TJBartlemus wrote...

I agree that they are promoting speculation because that means good buisness. Speculation=hype=money. So yes it would be counter productive. However at some point they have to acnowledge who's right. Not any time soon however. Maybe in future games or DLC. The DLC is unlikely though. Instead they will provide more hints and slight changes to the ending with each DLC making each one a must buy for ME fans. Remember...money is always the end goal for any company. Sure quality is important for the trip but in the end money is the goal. 

Well I'm glad we agree on that then.

As for future Mass Effect instalments; It BioWare indeed wishes to continue with the series post-ME3, they probably will do the same as Deus Ex did. After all, the current endings we already have already are a spin-off on the Deus Ex 1 endings.

So what did Deux Ex do what I'm talking about? Well, Deus Ex 1 had 3 endings similar to ME3. In Deus Ex 1 you could either control the world (joining the Illuminati), merge with Helios (an A.I. created by the Illuminati) or destroy the Helios A.I. and it's entire network (putting the world back into a dark age).

So, when Deus Ex 2 came out, they created a canon ending to expand on with Deus Ex 2. But instead of picking just 1 ending for the canon, they simply merged all 3 endings and used that as the prologue in Deus Ex 2.

So Deus Ex 2 begins with JC Denton (your DE1 character) merging with the Helios A.I. to gain control over the world. After merging with Helios, the entire network is overloaded, putting the world back into a dark age. When everything is restored, JC Denton merged with the Helios A.I. starts his campain to link every human being with the Helios A.I. network.

Kinda smart isn't it? How Deus Ex 2 made an excellent canon by merging all 3 endings of Deus Ex 1. A potential ME4 could do the same.

[TJBartlemus]

RoboticWays wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

Also, the star child says that TIM was right, but he could never control the Reapers, because the control him. How would control even be an option if Shepard was indoctrinated?

I honestly have no idea why people believe the leader of the reapers when he says things to him. I'm sure Saren and Illusive man believed the same things and look where that got them.

LOL, Saren and TIM were indoctrinated because of their proximity to Reapers and reaper tech. None of them actually talked to the Catalyst. Based on your opinion im just going to say that the entire Mario series was fake because all the times Peach was kidnapped, Mario was just dreaming. I can sit here and say that the grocery store lied to me and my peanut butter isnt made with real peanuts. 

Shepard has been exposed to reaper tech. Is he just invinsible to indoctrination? If so that is weak plot armor. Also all it takes (like in inception) is for the Reapers to input the idea of helping them into his subconcious using infrasonic noise (proven to have been planted into the game). The idea would manifest until it surfaces as his own idea. This would mean he wouldn't have to be constantly exposed to the Reaper tech. 

Regarding the Catalyst. The Catalyst is the collective intelligence of all the Reapers. So indirectly they did talk to him.

[The Heretic of Time]

Anyway, I'm off playing some Zelda Majora's Mask (amazing game with an actually good story and a proper ending ).

I'll be back to chat with you guys later! It has been fun!  Cheers and see ya later! 


Oh and don't forget:

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:27 .

[RoboticWays]

TJBartlemus wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

I feel that the fans just aren't satisfied for the ending, So they're looking for a deeper meaning in all this. Your imagination is fooling all of you, the Indoctrination Theory is laughible. Bioware didn't intend to do this, It's easy for BW to say "The ending doesn't suck as bad as you think, Artistic integrity, read between the lines!" because everybody hates their ending. If i'm home alone, and there is an open Coke on the counter that i didn't open, that doesn't mean my dog got it from the fridge and opened it. You're giving too much credit to Bioware for something they weren't even thinking about.

Bioware, before the game was even out, said that there was going to be more to the game than we just see. They said that not all of the game is going to be plain black and white. They even were experimenting with a mechanic in the game that Shepard loses his control of his body because of indoctrination. It was too dificult to impliment so they dropped the mechanic, but they didn't say they dropped the idea. If those are not a messages to read between the lines, what is?? 

Okay, i just found it, sorry about not aknowledging it.
Im sure Bioware knew that their ending was going to cause uproar. Like i said, Its easy for a dev to tell you to "read between the lines" because everybody does not like the ending. How do you know that this claim of the out of body thing is even official? I can go post something in another forum claiming to be a Bioware writer, saying that the indoctrination theory is true and the masses of braindead idiots on the internet would believe me. 
Im sure Bioware explored all sorts of options and endings, Im sure that the indoctrination theory had been brought up at a meeting. But when i compare to 9/11, i dont mean to bring up a bad memory. I mean to compare you to the conspiracy theorists who believe that it was a set up. Or the ones that believe we never went to the moon. Thats beside the point though, there are fishy aspects about everything. Its fishy that internet connection keeps going out, but that doesnt mean that there is a cyborg in space that doesnt want me to read a certain important document on the internet. 

[RavenEyry]

Simon_Says wrote..

• What is the thematic purpose of the child, the dreams, and the Starbrat?

The simple fact that Mr. Sparkle takes the child's form shows something untoward is going on.

[UltimateTobi]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Anyway, I'm off playing some Zelda Majora's Mask (amazing game with an actually good story and a proper ending ).

I'll be back to chat with you guys later! It has been fun!  Cheers and see ya later! 

Likewise. Enjoy Majora's Mask. Awesome game.

[smokingotter1]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

If the control ending cant happen because the catalyst "is lying" like you guys say, why would Bioware even put in a scene showing the reapers flying away, and rebuilding all of the stuff, and with the Shepard VI talking? Come on guys, You're just like the conspiracy theorists nuts that believe 9/11 was organized by our government.

Finally someone on my side here! Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing how ridiculous this straw grasping is getting.

Ok let's say you're right and it is bad writing... that just means you get a pyrrhic victory right? If DLC that's coming out has no post ending content than there really is not a whole lot of value to it, at least for me.

The reason I got ME2 DLC was cause it carried over to ME3. ME is all about choice and concequences. If we already know how ME3 ends and that there will be no further changes than what is the appeal of more ME3 DLC unless there are changes? Would anyone here pay for DLC if there was not post-ending content... I know I wouldn't.

Plus I'm not just a ME fan, I used to be a Star Wars fan (than Jar Jar happened), Battlestar Gallatica fan (than season 4 happened), Star Trek fan (than DS9 and Voyager happened), Matrix fan (than Reloaded and Revolutions happened), and Aliens fan (than Aliens 3 and other movies happened) I can't lose another sci-fi franchise...

Let's just wait and see what happens with Leviathan, if you're right in the end than "yay, sadness for everyone." If Heretic and Robotic are right I'll pay for a giant billboard that says "Heretic and Robotic are right, sadness reigns" with a giant Eeyore on it.

[TJBartlemus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

I agree that they are promoting speculation because that means good buisness. Speculation=hype=money. So yes it would be counter productive. However at some point they have to acnowledge who's right. Not any time soon however. Maybe in future games or DLC. The DLC is unlikely though. Instead they will provide more hints and slight changes to the ending with each DLC making each one a must buy for ME fans. Remember...money is always the end goal for any company. Sure quality is important for the trip but in the end money is the goal. 

Well I'm glad we agree on that then.

As for future Mass Effect instalments; It BioWare indeed wishes to continue with the series post-ME3, they probably will do the same as Deus Ex did. After all, the current endings we already have already are a spin-off on the Deus Ex 1 endings.

So what did Deux Ex do what I'm talking about? Well, Deus Ex 1 had 3 endings similar to ME3. In Deus Ex 1 you could either control the world (joining the Illuminati), merge with Helios (an A.I. created by the Illuminati) or destroy the Helios A.I. and it's entire network (putting the world back into a dark age).

So, when Deus Ex 2 came out, they created a canon ending to expand on with Deus Ex 2. But instead of picking just 1 ending for the canon, they simply merged all 3 endings and used that as the prologue in Deus Ex 2.

So Deus Ex 2 begins with JC Denton (your DE1 character) merging with the Helios A.I. to gain control over the world. After merging with Helios, the entire network is overloaded, putting the world back into a dark age. When everything is restored, JC Denton merged with the Helios A.I. starts his campain to link every human being with the Helios A.I. network.

Kinda smart isn't it? How Deus Ex 2 made an excellent canon by merging all 3 endings of Deus Ex 1. A potential ME4 could do the same.

Well the endings are so different in ME3 I would find that quite difficult for BioWare to do. They made the endings quite specific to how the player chose, I would find it a giant F you for them to do that. It would mean my choice didn't matter and all of them happened anyway. BioWare prides it's self on having people satisfied with the ending as the player's choice. To make all three in one would comprimise that.  

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:30 .

[masster blaster]

Ultimate have you heard anything from CleverNoob that he is going to release his new video about IT, or no?

[Priss Blackburne]

RoboticWays wrote...

. How do you know that this claim of the out of body thing is even official?

It was stated in a documentary app officialy supported by Bioware. Not some random post on a forum.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[paxxton]

masster blaster wrote...

Ultimate have you heard anything from CleverNoob that he is going to release his new video about IT, or no?

He said he will at some point in the future. On the EC.

Modifié par paxxton, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:33 .

[RavenEyry]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Plus I'm not just a ME fan, I used to be a Star Wars fan (than Jar Jar happened), Battlestar Gallatica fan (than season 4 happened), Star Trek fan (than DS9 and Voyager happened), Matrix fan (than Reloaded and Revolutions happened), and Aliens fan (than Aliens 3 and other movies happened) I can't lose another sci-fi franchise...

I sometimes feel like the only person in the world who liked the end to BSG...

[RoboticWays]

Love debates, but they're only fun with the ones who don't try to take jabs. Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed. It's good that i can debate with people like @Tj Bartlemus and not be viewed as a hostile.

[UltimateTobi]

masster blaster wrote...

Ultimate have you heard anything from CleverNoob that he is going to release his new video about IT, or no?

Unfortunately not. But there's a "Brainstorming for Part 3" thread here. I contributed, but not much going on there I think.
Low activity in his forum compared to this thread. Wonder sometimes where he gets the evidences from. But he manages to do so. Whether through his own effort, or maybe by... psst... reading our thread.

I hope Parabolee updates his blog as well.

[The Heretic of Time]

Oh and this is for Masster Blaster :

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[Simon_Says]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As for future Mass Effect instalments; It BioWare indeed wishes to continue with the series post-ME3, they probably will do the same as Deus Ex did. After all, the current endings we already have already are a spin-off on the Deus Ex 1 endings.

So what did Deux Ex do what I'm talking about? Well, Deus Ex 1 had 3 endings similar to ME3. In Deus Ex 1 you could either control the world (joining the Illuminati), merge with Helios (an A.I. created by the Illuminati) or destroy the Helios A.I. and it's entire network (putting the world back into a dark age).

So, when Deus Ex 2 came out, they created a canon ending to expand on with Deus Ex 2. But instead of picking just 1 ending for the canon, they simply merged all 3 endings and used that as the prologue in Deus Ex 2.

So Deus Ex 2 begins with JC Denton (your DE1 character) merging with the Helios A.I. to gain control over the world. After merging with Helios, the entire network is overloaded, putting the world back into a dark age. When everything is restored, JC Denton merged with the Helios A.I. starts his campain to link every human being with the Helios A.I. network.

Kinda smart isn't it? How Deus Ex 2 made an excellent canon by merging all 3 endings of Deus Ex 1. A potential ME4 could do the same.

Except that Invisible War was complete crap in almost every respect.

And you can't merge Destroy with either Control or Synthesis. It's simply not possible. Not to mention that Destroy was the entire goal of the series right up to the point when the Starbrat showed up, it requires the least drastic changes to the setting (anything involving synthesis would be drastic, period), and it presents the most opportunity for new threats to the galaxy to arise since the reapers aren't around to solve them or keep everyone in line. Not to mention it keeps Shepard as a viable character to appear in future games.

[CoolioThane]

God, anti-ITers are just pure eww

[Priss Blackburne]

RoboticWays wrote...

Love debates, but they're only fun with the ones who don't try to take jabs. Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed. It's good that i can debate with people like @Tj Bartlemus and not be viewed as a hostile.

sorry I'm just tired of people arguing against the IT without fully reading up on it. That's my view of ill-informed. Sorry if it in anyway insulted you.

[RoboticWays]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

If the control ending cant happen because the catalyst "is lying" like you guys say, why would Bioware even put in a scene showing the reapers flying away, and rebuilding all of the stuff, and with the Shepard VI talking? Come on guys, You're just like the conspiracy theorists nuts that believe 9/11 was organized by our government.

Finally someone on my side here! Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing how ridiculous this straw grasping is getting.

Ok let's say you're right and it is bad writing... that just means you get a pyrrhic victory right? If DLC that's coming out has no post ending content than there really is not a whole lot of value to it, at least for me.

The reason I got ME2 DLC was cause it carried over to ME3. ME is all about choice and concequences. If we already know how ME3 ends and that there will be no further changes than what is the appeal of more ME3 DLC unless there are changes? Would anyone here pay for DLC if there was not post-ending content... I know I wouldn't.

Plus I'm not just a ME fan, I used to be a Star Wars fan (than Jar Jar happened), Battlestar Gallatica fan (than season 4 happened), Star Trek fan (than DS9 and Voyager happened), Matrix fan (than Reloaded and Revolutions happened), and Aliens fan (than Aliens 3 and other movies happened) I can't lose another sci-fi franchise...

Let's just wait and see what happens with Leviathan, if you're right in the end than "yay, sadness for everyone." If Heretic and Robotic are right I'll pay for a giant billboard that says "Heretic and Robotic are right, sadness reigns" with a giant Eeyore on it.

Actually, If you're right and Shepard is indeed indoctrinated. Than our cycle is obliterated and no more Mass effect. I am thrilled to see how BW goes on with this, and how they adapt with future titiles. Out of all of those series you mentioned, not one of them have a backstory as deep and a setting as immersive. I would be mortified to see nothing but prequels in the ME universe after this.

[masster blaster]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

I agree that they are promoting speculation because that means good buisness. Speculation=hype=money. So yes it would be counter productive. However at some point they have to acnowledge who's right. Not any time soon however. Maybe in future games or DLC. The DLC is unlikely though. Instead they will provide more hints and slight changes to the ending with each DLC making each one a must buy for ME fans. Remember...money is always the end goal for any company. Sure quality is important for the trip but in the end money is the goal. 

Well I'm glad we agree on that then.

As for future Mass Effect instalments; It BioWare indeed wishes to continue with the series post-ME3, they probably will do the same as Deus Ex did. After all, the current endings we already have already are a spin-off on the Deus Ex 1 endings.

So what did Deux Ex do what I'm talking about? Well, Deus Ex 1 had 3 endings similar to ME3. In Deus Ex 1 you could either control the world (joining the Illuminati), merge with Helios (an A.I. created by the Illuminati) or destroy the Helios A.I. and it's entire network (putting the world back into a dark age).

So, when Deus Ex 2 came out, they created a canon ending to expand on with Deus Ex 2. But instead of picking just 1 ending for the canon, they simply merged all 3 endings and used that as the prologue in Deus Ex 2.

So Deus Ex 2 begins with JC Denton (your DE1 character) merging with the Helios A.I. to gain control over the world. After merging with Helios, the entire network is overloaded, putting the world back into a dark age. When everything is restored, JC Denton merged with the Helios A.I. starts his campain to link every human being with the Helios A.I. network.

Kinda smart isn't it? How Deus Ex 2 made an excellent canon by merging all 3 endings of Deus Ex 1. A potential ME4 could do the same.

Well the endings are so different in ME3 I would find that quite difficult for BioWare to do. They made the endings quite specific to how the player chose, I would find it a giant F you for them to do that. It would mean my choice didn't matter and all of them happened anyway. BioWare prides it's self on having people satisfied with the ending as the player's choice. To make all three in one would comprimise that.  

on that note

Synthesis: No dying, No wars.

Control: Reapers are the police of the Galaxy, and nobody will start a war because the Reapers will stop them before it happens.

Destroy: We make our own future, and we may start a new war, but with out the Reapers changeing the way teh galaxy is suppost to be.

Refuse/Reject: Reapers are deffeted in the next cycle by the crucible " which was stated by Mike Gamble on twitter"

In all  the endings the Reapers  win in two endings and lose in two endings. Bioware can't combine all of the endings together. Since Synthesis has no more anything, and Control Reapes are the SPD of the galaxy.

So if Bioware does expaned on the endings in ME4 I don't want to buy it, since if Synthesis is in ME4, then they will come up with a new enime that is more powerful thatn the Reapers, which I would hate because if the Reaeps are defeted in battle, than the rest of the galaxy is f*****.
Control is the same thing as Synthesis.
Destroy will most likely be the best ending because it's undetermind on what mite happened, but not refues/reject, because there is peace in the galaxy.

Destroy

[smokingotter1]

RavenEyry wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Plus I'm not just a ME fan, I used to be a Star Wars fan (than Jar Jar happened), Battlestar Gallatica fan (than season 4 happened), Star Trek fan (than DS9 and Voyager happened), Matrix fan (than Reloaded and Revolutions happened), and Aliens fan (than Aliens 3 and other movies happened) I can't lose another sci-fi franchise...

I sometimes feel like the only person in the world who liked the end to BSG...

A lot of people liked it, you're not alone. I just felt Ron Moore bit off more than he could chew and they didn't know how to tie up all the lose ends.... like Starbuck came back in a brand new Viper?! How? Can I haz explanation in  final episode?
Writers: No!
Smokingotter: