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[RoboticWays]

RavenEyry wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Plus I'm not just a ME fan, I used to be a Star Wars fan (than Jar Jar happened), Battlestar Gallatica fan (than season 4 happened), Star Trek fan (than DS9 and Voyager happened), Matrix fan (than Reloaded and Revolutions happened), and Aliens fan (than Aliens 3 and other movies happened) I can't lose another sci-fi franchise...

I sometimes feel like the only person in the world who liked the end to BSG...

Nope! I was completly satisfied by the way BSG ended.

[Turbo_J]

We're story boarding the first Ep. Master Blaster. Be patient. It's a long process, writing, capturing clips, editing, adding music... takes time.

Hi Heretic. It's good to see you care enough to express your feelings. I can understand using this thread to do it in, as it's less likely to get locked as you hate on BioWare, but you should consider creating your own thread so like minded people can support your cause. Just be constructive, respectful, and bring your argument right to BW through the forum.

The idea that Shepard is fighting (unknowingly-as that is how the lore works) indoctrination isn't for everyone. The endings were painful, so it's hard to get over that anger, look past what we may reprieve as a horrible way to end the trilogy, and actually look at all the in game evidence that sheds light on the fact that things aren't exactly what they seem. Some people are willing to discover and speculate, others just want to hate and pout. You've been doing the latter for hours. You obviously care.

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Oh and this is for Masster Blaster :

okay. so what was the point of this?

[RavenEyry]

RoboticWays wrote...
 Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed.

But you are ill informed.

RoboticWays wrote...

Also, the star child says that TIM
was right, but he could never control the Reapers, because the control
him. How would control even be an option if Shepard was indoctrinated?

Anyone who actually understands the theory wouldn't have said that.

[RoboticWays]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

Love debates, but they're only fun with the ones who don't try to take jabs. Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed. It's good that i can debate with people like @Tj Bartlemus and not be viewed as a hostile.

sorry I'm just tired of people arguing against the IT without fully reading up on it. That's my view of ill-informed. Sorry if it in anyway insulted you.

Nope, not offended. Just expected a friendly debate, not shots at my education.

[masster blaster]

Turbo_J wrote...

We're story boarding the first Ep. Master Blaster. Be patient. It's a long process, writing, capturing clips, editing, adding music... takes time.

Hi Heretic. It's good to see you care enough to express your feelings. I can understand using this thread to do it in, as it's less likely to get locked as you hate on BioWare, but you should consider creating your own thread so like minded people can support your cause. Just be constructive, respectful, and bring your argument right to BW through the forum.

The idea that Shepard is fighting (unknowingly-as that is how the lore works) indoctrination isn't for everyone. The endings were painful, so it's hard to get over that anger, look past what we may reprieve as a horrible way to end the trilogy, and actually look at all the in game evidence that sheds light on the fact that things aren't exactly what they seem. Some people are willing to discover and speculate, others just want to hate and pout. You've been doing the latter for hours. You obviously care.

I know it's just that there is nothing to specualte lately and I have been coming up with a plan that I think everyone will question.

[Priss Blackburne]

Apparently I may be in a crabby mood today. I'm normally not insulting people. at least I hope I'm not normally. Time to go take a break.

I apologize to anyone I may have been antagonistic towards today. Sorry @roboticways

And I liked BSG ending. In fact up till Mass Effect I've never really been bothered by any endings. Which is why It's so weird for me to have this kind of reaction. Just goes to show how much I love Mass Effect maybe.

peace offering

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:47 .

[smokingotter1]

RoboticWays wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

If the control ending cant happen because the catalyst "is lying" like you guys say, why would Bioware even put in a scene showing the reapers flying away, and rebuilding all of the stuff, and with the Shepard VI talking? Come on guys, You're just like the conspiracy theorists nuts that believe 9/11 was organized by our government.

Finally someone on my side here! Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing how ridiculous this straw grasping is getting.

Ok let's say you're right and it is bad writing... that just means you get a pyrrhic victory right? If DLC that's coming out has no post ending content than there really is not a whole lot of value to it, at least for me.

The reason I got ME2 DLC was cause it carried over to ME3. ME is all about choice and concequences. If we already know how ME3 ends and that there will be no further changes than what is the appeal of more ME3 DLC unless there are changes? Would anyone here pay for DLC if there was not post-ending content... I know I wouldn't.

Plus I'm not just a ME fan, I used to be a Star Wars fan (than Jar Jar happened), Battlestar Gallatica fan (than season 4 happened), Star Trek fan (than DS9 and Voyager happened), Matrix fan (than Reloaded and Revolutions happened), and Aliens fan (than Aliens 3 and other movies happened) I can't lose another sci-fi franchise...

Let's just wait and see what happens with Leviathan, if you're right in the end than "yay, sadness for everyone." If Heretic and Robotic are right I'll pay for a giant billboard that says "Heretic and Robotic are right, sadness reigns" with a giant Eeyore on it.

Actually, If you're right and Shepard is indeed indoctrinated. Than our cycle is obliterated and no more Mass effect. I am thrilled to see how BW goes on with this, and how they adapt with future titiles. Out of all of those series you mentioned, not one of them have a backstory as deep and a setting as immersive. I would be mortified to see nothing but prequels in the ME universe after this.

Smoking: "Prequels are a dirty word to me now because-"
TTB: "meesa"
Smoking: "No."
TTB: "Meesa!"
Smoking: "Nooooooooooo!"
HHB: "Meesa Turian Turian Binks! Reapers be bombad general!"

[TJBartlemus]

RoboticWays wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Bioware, before the game was even out, said that there was going to be more to the game than we just see. They said that not all of the game is going to be plain black and white. They even were experimenting with a mechanic in the game that Shepard loses his control of his body because of indoctrination. It was too dificult to impliment so they dropped the mechanic, but they didn't say they dropped the idea. If those are not a messages to read between the lines, what is?? 

Okay, i just found it, sorry about not aknowledging it.
Im sure Bioware knew that their ending was going to cause uproar. Like i said, Its easy for a dev to tell you to "read between the lines" because everybody does not like the ending. How do you know that this claim of the out of body thing is even official? I can go post something in another forum claiming to be a Bioware writer, saying that the indoctrination theory is true and the masses of braindead idiots on the internet would believe me. 
Im sure Bioware explored all sorts of options and endings, Im sure that the indoctrination theory had been brought up at a meeting. But when i compare to 9/11, i dont mean to bring up a bad memory. I mean to compare you to the conspiracy theorists who believe that it was a set up. Or the ones that believe we never went to the moon. Thats beside the point though, there are fishy aspects about everything. Its fishy that internet connection keeps going out, but that doesnt mean that there is a cyborg in space that doesnt want me to read a certain important document on the internet. 

Blackburn said it. The final hours app is official and the out of body mechanic was discussed in it. I always try to keep my proof as accurate as possible, for future reference if you doubt my proof.

Problem with the posing as a BioWare writer thing is that anywhere people will not believe you unless you prove you ARE a employee. Other sites this is impossible to prove 100% unless you are recognizable like Casey Hudson or Michael Gamble. In this site posing is impossible because all BioWare employees have the BioWare badge underneath the name. So unless you have either of those 2, no one is going to truely believe you're an employee. 

BioWare is a great company. There are fishy things about it. Generally these simple things would be fixed is everything is literal. If not then it's sloppy. I refuse to believe it's sloppy. They even took 3-4 more months from original release date to make sure things were how they wanted it. And it's mainly only in ME3. Not in ME1 or 2. Just 3. And most of the errors aren't needed. They specifically went out of thier way to make them there. Why?

I also love debating. Not really when it's hostile. Just many are really passionate of thier opinion. (Also helps we get a regular supply of trolls coming in here. So many have gotten in the habit of assuming many are trolls. If any are rude I apologise. As It'ers I think we should be above being petty or it makes us no more better that the trolls.)

[Eryri]

Simon_Says wrote...

snip Consider...

The Starbrat has taken the form of the child from Earth. This image holds emotional weight for Shepard as plainly depicted in the dreams. There is no way for the reapers to have physically seen Shepard's interaction with this child in the vent and to extrapolate that his likeness would haunt Shepard's dreams. Even in the scenario that they did see Shepard interacting with the child/seeing the child die, why then did they not shoot Shepard down right then when they had the opportunity?

Therefore something irregular is going on in Shepard's head during the whole Crucible chamber sequence. Either some entity that is not Shepard has acquired the image of the child's likeness and voice from Shepard's mind and used it to present itself (in which case we must then ask why it specifically chose to present itself as the child, and also how this image was acquired) or it was Shepard's own consciousness that has endowed the Starbrat with the child's likeness. (In which case odd mental shenanigans are still going down. Seeing things not as they are but as your mind sees them is usually associated with mental disorder.)

Either way it's irrelevant. Shepard was not seeing pure, unmodified reality during the Crucible chamber sequence. This much is certain. And from this premise the rest of IT follows.

• What is the thematic purpose of the child, the dreams, and the Starbrat?
• Why does TIM try so hard throughout ME3 to convince Shepard that Control is the way to go? Why did Saren similarily advocate Synthesis in ME1?
• Why didn't Harbinger outright kill/destroy Shepard and the Normandy during The Run?
• Why do scenes and images reminiscent of Shepard's dreams and memories keep appearing throughout end sequences?
• Why does the 'Conduit' not resemble any other mass relay device we've seen?
• Why does it send Shepard straight to the Citadel control panel?
• How do Anderson and TIM reach that control panel despite Shepard taking the only route to it? (Why don't we see the Citdel "moving, changing"?)
• What is the purpose of showing Shepard's gut wound that we never saw inflicted on Shepard, yet mirrors the wound Shepard inflicted on Anderson?
• Why does the Starbrat dialogue flip the themes and goals of the series completely on their head?
• Why should we believe or trust the Starbrat when it admits it's the leader of the enemy?
• Why was the Starbrat's character even introduced to the series in the first place?
• Why is Synthesis presented so positively when it wasn't the goal of the series, and carries its own significant moral pitfalls?
• Why is Control also presented positively when it fundamentally represents accepting the reapers as a neccesary presence in galactic affairs?
• Why is Destroy presented negatively when both EDI and the Geth a) demonstrated the Starbrat's argument about organic/synthetic conflict to be false (invalidating "the peace won't last") and both were ready and willing to die if it meant ending the reaper threat (thus it's not 'genocide', it's just sacrifice).
• Why does Shepard survive even when the Starbrat pretty much states that they wouldn't.
• In destroy, how does Shepard survive being at Space Magic Ground Zero? And how and why does Shepard wake up in rubble that looks exactly like the rubble on Earth?
• After spending so much time in close proximity to reapers and other indoctrinating technology, how has Shepard not been affected by indoctrination to some degree?
• What is the thematic purpose of indoctrination throughout the series if it wasn't building up to something more than "Bad Guys R Us"?

Indoctrination Theory provides answers to these and more. Bioware may not have come up with such an elegant solution, but we did. snip

Beautifully summarized mate. Well done.

[masster blaster]

TJBartlemus wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Bioware, before the game was even out, said that there was going to be more to the game than we just see. They said that not all of the game is going to be plain black and white. They even were experimenting with a mechanic in the game that Shepard loses his control of his body because of indoctrination. It was too dificult to impliment so they dropped the mechanic, but they didn't say they dropped the idea. If those are not a messages to read between the lines, what is?? 

Okay, i just found it, sorry about not aknowledging it.
Im sure Bioware knew that their ending was going to cause uproar. Like i said, Its easy for a dev to tell you to "read between the lines" because everybody does not like the ending. How do you know that this claim of the out of body thing is even official? I can go post something in another forum claiming to be a Bioware writer, saying that the indoctrination theory is true and the masses of braindead idiots on the internet would believe me. 
Im sure Bioware explored all sorts of options and endings, Im sure that the indoctrination theory had been brought up at a meeting. But when i compare to 9/11, i dont mean to bring up a bad memory. I mean to compare you to the conspiracy theorists who believe that it was a set up. Or the ones that believe we never went to the moon. Thats beside the point though, there are fishy aspects about everything. Its fishy that internet connection keeps going out, but that doesnt mean that there is a cyborg in space that doesnt want me to read a certain important document on the internet. 

Blackburn said it. The final hours app is official and the out of body mechanic was discussed in it. I always try to keep my proof as accurate as possible, for future reference if you doubt my proof.

Problem with the posing as a BioWare writer thing is that anywhere people will not believe you unless you prove you ARE a employee. Other sites this is impossible to prove 100% unless you are recognizable like Casey Hudson or Michael Gamble. In this site posing is impossible because all BioWare employees have the BioWare badge underneath the name. So unless you have either of those 2, no one is going to truely believe you're an employee. 

BioWare is a great company. There are fishy things about it. Generally these simple things would be fixed is everything is literal. If not then it's sloppy. I refuse to believe it's sloppy. They even took 3-4 more months from original release date to make sure things were how they wanted it. And it's mainly only in ME3. Not in ME1 or 2. Just 3. And most of the errors aren't needed. They specifically went out of thier way to make them there. Why?

I also love debating. Not really when it's hostile. Just many are really passionate of thier opinion. (Also helps we get a regular supply of trolls coming in here. So many have gotten in the habit of assuming many are trolls. If any are rude I apologise. As It'ers I think we should be above being petty or it makes us no more better that the trolls.)

yes but there have been so many people coming in this thread and telling us IT is wrong. it's hard to tell if some is or is not a troll, if they come in here and ask why do you all still believe in IT". It starts to iritate you.

[RoboticWays]

RavenEyry wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...
 Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed.

But you are ill informed.

RoboticWays wrote...

Also, the star child says that TIM
was right, but he could never control the Reapers, because the control
him. How would control even be an option if Shepard was indoctrinated?

Anyone who actually understands the theory wouldn't have said that.

Oh im sorry, I was unaware that you've been spying on me and know how much i've looked up the IT?
Ive read all the articles about it, see, I have the ability to think rationally. Show me where Shepard starts undergoing this indoctination. Where does he first start having headaches? You don't only need proximity to Reapers or reaper tech, but you also have to have duration. Its not something that happens cause you're chillin on a derelict Reaper for a few hours. Its something that pecks away at you over time and eventually convinces you that the Reapers are the good guys. Shepard is not shown as a "Puppet" in any way throughout the game.

[RavenEyry]

masster blaster wrote...

yes but there have been so many people coming in this thread and telling us IT is wrong. it's hard to tell if some is or is not a troll, if they come in here and ask why do you all still believe in IT". It starts to iritate you.

I don't care if people disagree, but I do care when they get all offended that we DARE believe it ourselves. To answer "why do you still believe" is because there has yet to be anything to make me NOT believe.

[RavenEyry]

RoboticWays wrote...
Oh im sorry, I was unaware that you've been spying on me and know how much i've looked up the IT?
Ive read all the articles about it, see, I have the ability to think rationally. Show me where Shepard starts undergoing this indoctination. Where does he first start having headaches? You don't only need proximity to Reapers or reaper tech, but you also have to have duration. Its not something that happens cause you're chillin on a derelict Reaper for a few hours. Its something that pecks away at you over time and eventually convinces you that the Reapers are the good guys. Shepard is not shown as a "Puppet" in any way throughout the game.

And once again you show yourself to be ill informed. No where in the theory has it ever said Shepard is indoctrinated, just that the end is a representation of Shepards mental battle with the forces attempting to indoctrinate them.

[Rifneno]

RoboticWays wrote...

I mean to compare you to the conspiracy theorists who believe that it was a set up. Or the ones that believe we never went to the moon.

RoboticWays wrote...

Love debates, but they're only fun with the ones who don't try to take jabs.

What hilarious hypocrisy. Probably too stupid to even realize it, too.

[Rosewind]

Does any one have a link to the a high resolution of that Image of Shepard standing in London with his sniper riffle with the reapers flying down. It appears on the back of the CD case.

[TJBartlemus]

RoboticWays wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...
 Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed.

But you are ill informed.

RoboticWays wrote...

Also, the star child says that TIM
was right, but he could never control the Reapers, because the control
him. How would control even be an option if Shepard was indoctrinated?

Anyone who actually understands the theory wouldn't have said that.

Oh im sorry, I was unaware that you've been spying on me and know how much i've looked up the IT?
Ive read all the articles about it, see, I have the ability to think rationally. Show me where Shepard starts undergoing this indoctination. Where does he first start having headaches? You don't only need proximity to Reapers or reaper tech, but you also have to have duration. Its not something that happens cause you're chillin on a derelict Reaper for a few hours. Its something that pecks away at you over time and eventually convinces you that the Reapers are the good guys. Shepard is not shown as a "Puppet" in any way throughout the game.

I believe if Shepard started having headaches out of nowhere it would be too obvious. I believe that BioWare instead went a more subtle route and did the dreams. It's also entirely possible that Shepard doesn't notice his headaches or recognise them because of Reaper influence on perceptions. Could explain why everyone seems worried about Shepard, but us as Shepard don't see anything to be worried about. 

Currently we have no idea of the ratio it requires for indoctrination. Just that it requires exposure. And Shepard has been exposed a lot. So either he is invinsible to it or it's weak plot armor if literal. To some extent Shepard has to be affected by indoctrination. No doubt.

[Priss Blackburne]

RoboticWays wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...
 Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed.

But you are ill informed.

RoboticWays wrote...

Also, the star child says that TIM
was right, but he could never control the Reapers, because the control
him. How would control even be an option if Shepard was indoctrinated?

Anyone who actually understands the theory wouldn't have said that.

Oh im sorry, I was unaware that you've been spying on me and know how much i've looked up the IT?
Ive read all the articles about it, see, I have the ability to think rationally. Show me where Shepard starts undergoing this indoctination. Where does he first start having headaches? You don't only need proximity to Reapers or reaper tech, but you also have to have duration. Its not something that happens cause you're chillin on a derelict Reaper for a few hours. Its something that pecks away at you over time and eventually convinces you that the Reapers are the good guys. Shepard is not shown as a "Puppet" in any way throughout the game.

Well he was zapped by reaper tech and unconcious beside one for something like 2 days during the arrival DLC.

Indoctrination is a slow process. The Illusive man first came into contact with reaper tech during the First contact war between turians and humans. It changed his Eyes and imparted knowledge to him. But it was more a secondary contact with reaper tech.

Sticking to facts for a while heh

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .

[Simon_Says]

RoboticWays wrote...

Oh im sorry, I was unaware that you've been spying on me and know how much i've looked up the IT?
Ive read all the articles about it, see, I have the ability to think rationally. Show me where Shepard starts undergoing this indoctination. Where does he first start having headaches? You don't only need proximity to Reapers or reaper tech, but you also have to have duration. Its not something that happens cause you're chillin on a derelict Reaper for a few hours. Its something that pecks away at you over time and eventually convinces you that the Reapers are the good guys. Shepard is not shown as a "Puppet" in any way throughout the game.

Neither were TIM or Saren. They were both mostly independent even when serving the reapers. it's just that their goals, beliefs, and methods fell into alignment with the reaper agenda.

As for duration.

• Eden Prime
• Virmire
• Citadel at the climax of ME1 (Sovereign was dry humping the tower right above your head, remember?)
• Two years being rebuilt by Cerberus, andwe know that TIM was not non-indoctrinated even then thanks to ME:Evolution.
• Proximity to Collector tech during Horizon, Collector Ship, and Collector Base.
• The protoreaper in the Collector Base.
• Numerous reapers on Earth in both the beginning and end of ME3.
• Numerous reapers on Menae, Thessia
• Close proximity to destroyers on Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth
• Some theorizing that Glyph is a reaper VI.
• Most importantly: 2 days next to object Rho in Arrival

As for symptoms. Dreams, "cracked helmet" scene, OoC moments and outbursts, self doubt... yeah. There are symptoms. They don't imply that Shepard is indoctrinated, but that they're undergoing the process to become indoctrinated. Shepard's was being buttered up for when the reapers will have their opportune moment to turn him completely.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:06 .

[RoboticWays]

There are compelling arguments to both sides, But there is no way we will know for sure. I respect all of you and your opinions. But the IT will never be dismissed, nor will it ever be confirmed. All im saying is, Im holding to my opinion because i believe it is rational, (Although you can't really approach ME rationally with all the space magic, i know) and because i dont want to see the end to all of the races i've interacted with. (You really think if you were indoctrinated that your final choice would matter? IT would mean the obliteration of this cycle, and a victory for the next cycle, with the Yahg and Raloi as the front runners.. which means the end of everything i've played for.)

[TJBartlemus]

Simon_Says wrote...

• Citadel at the climax of ME1 (Sovereign was dry humping the tower right above your head, remember?)

Lol. How did I not notice that?? Jk. 

[Priss Blackburne]

RoboticWays wrote...

There are compelling arguments to both sides, But there is no way we will know for sure. I respect all of you and your opinions. But the IT will never be dismissed, nor will it ever be confirmed. All im saying is, Im holding to my opinion because i believe it is rational, (Although you can't really approach ME rationally with all the space magic, i know) and because i dont want to see the end to all of the races i've interacted with. (You really think if you were indoctrinated that your final choice would matter? IT would mean the obliteration of this cycle, and a victory for the next cycle, with the Yahg and Raloi as the front runners.. which means the end of everything i've played for.)

Agree with this. We may never know and in which case IT becomes kinda moot since it relies on a continuation after the breath scene in destroy. We can also theorize that what shepard is seeing is hallucinations but is still interacting in the real world just the reapers are trying to trick him/her. There are a lot of possibilities to the interpretation of the endings. Until we get an official statment or Canon none of them are proven or disproven. It all comes down to what each individual thinks.

Okay I'm doing better again ...I think

[RoboticWays]

So many responses, I never played the Arrival DLC so i was unaware of that. And if he was indoctrinated, then he was forced as a puppet by the Reapers to open the Citadel, and activate the crucible? If he were and indoctrinated puppet,he would side with TIM and back him up throughout the game.

[smokingotter1]

RoboticWays wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

RoboticWays wrote...
 Just because i'm not swayed by your opinion @Priss Blackburne doesn't mean i'm ill-informed.

But you are ill informed.

RoboticWays wrote...

Also, the star child says that TIM
was right, but he could never control the Reapers, because the control
him. How would control even be an option if Shepard was indoctrinated?

Anyone who actually understands the theory wouldn't have said that.

Oh im sorry, I was unaware that you've been spying on me and know how much i've looked up the IT?
Ive read all the articles about it, see, I have the ability to think rationally. Show me where Shepard starts undergoing this indoctination. Where does he first start having headaches? You don't only need proximity to Reapers or reaper tech, but you also have to have duration. Its not something that happens cause you're chillin on a derelict Reaper for a few hours. Its something that pecks away at you over time and eventually convinces you that the Reapers are the good guys. Shepard is not shown as a "Puppet" in any way throughout the game.

But to be fair the codex does say that rapid indoctrination is possible.  Rapid indoctrination is the fast food version of indoctrination, it's fast but unhealthy because it rapidly degrades the thrall's mental abilities compared to the slow patient home cooked indoctrination that lets the thrall last longer mentally.

TL:Dr Harbinger attacked Shepard with a big mac.

[TJBartlemus]

RoboticWays wrote...

There are compelling arguments to both sides, But there is no way we will know for sure. I respect all of you and your opinions. But the IT will never be dismissed, nor will it ever be confirmed. All im saying is, Im holding to my opinion because i believe it is rational, (Although you can't really approach ME rationally with all the space magic, i know) and because i dont want to see the end to all of the races i've interacted with. (You really think if you were indoctrinated that your final choice would matter? IT would mean the obliteration of this cycle, and a victory for the next cycle, with the Yahg and Raloi as the front runners.. which means the end of everything i've played for.)

Not necessarily. Destroy remember? If IT is real it frees you from Reaper influence. (Then you procede to kick the Reapers butts. )