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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#4551
gunslinger_ruiz

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HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I think Bioware made it quite clear from the very start that they would never alter from their general course or "artistic" plan for the ending. I certainly do think they are going to mold the character epilogues and whatnot after player feedback, but whether IT is true or not was set in stone long before the game's release. Of that I have no doubt. 

I agree, I'm already convinced Bioware had it planned all along, but the problem was the delivery, as an example I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, I have qualifications in electronics and computer science, but I could not see further than the end of this game when I completed my first play through, in my opinion at the time, Bioware screwed up big time, but this was not in line with the rest of the trilogy, you don't take your flagship game and drop the ball by accident in the last few minutes.


But if they made the ending too satisfying, people would have been less likely to question it. If less people questioned it, IT may not be what it is today. 


I think they could/should have made it a little more obvious somehow (if it's true). It would've generated less backlash. Something simple like the Catalyst's eyes flashing yellow at sometime, or the nightmare whispers persisting in the background when you walk towards Control or Synthesis.

#4552
Lakeshow1986

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Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.

#4553
byne

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D.Sharrah wrote...

Well...time to fall behind again, hope to be able to catch back up in a little bit - but the kids are wanting to play - so we are going to build a blanket fort...if that does not bring back any nostalgic memories from your childhood, I am so sad for you.


Man, now I totally want to build a blanket fort.

#4554
DJBare

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HellishFiend wrote...


But if they made the ending too satisfying, people would have been less likely to question it. If less people questioned it, IT may not be what it is today. 

I agree, but that's the problem, most believe they have purchased the "complete" game, if I.T turns out true, then they did not get the "complete" game and their anger would be understandable, I'm only on board with it because the EC is free, if they were charging for it I'd be furious.

#4555
Icinix

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hm...Well that sucks. A much slower way to build your readiness % is with the free ME3 datapadd for ipod OS, kinda sucks you can't just use it on PC. It's an interesting app, you've probably heard of it but incase you haven't tried it it has a mini-game that you sends fleets to parts of the galaxy to slowly raise your % and get credits to further upgrade your fleets (within the mini game not the real game). Once you get ALL the upgrades you're looking at a boost of 3.16% per galactic area, which is about as good as winning a MP game on bronze after awhile but it takes around 5 hours of waiting on your fleets to complete the area. Worth a look, alternative to MP, just takes a lot of time.

There's also that Inflitrator game for Android, but costs money and I don't have an Android to try it on so cant say either which way if it's worth it.


Yeah the data pad app caught my eye, but I don't use Apple products so I'm out - the infiltrator game looks kind of interesting but I don't spend a lot of time on mobile devices...so...

Coalesced editing it is! Its not a biggie, but I did enjoy the MP for ME3 - totally sucks with the overheads involved at the moment - but ahh well. What can you do? It was a good diversion why it lasted.

#4556
HellishFiend

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Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Yes, I did notice that. I speculated that it could be a sign of the reaper emitting high amounts of infrasonic noise as it speaks. Infrasonic noise cant be heard directly, but it has subconscious effects and can be "felt" as a vibration. 

#4557
Lord Luc1fer

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Ostensibly the other human female crewmembers of the Normandy survived. I dont remember the exact crew count on the ship, if they ever said it, but there could feasibly be enough to grow a population. Not that I'm defending face value or anything, but we cant exactly point a finger at that as proof of IT. 

Oh yeah, I did not mean to imply that what I was saying supported IT. I just find the whole scenario to be unrealistic, and I have a hard time suspending my disbelief...probably because I'm a biologist (ok, technically i am only a grad student!).


As far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Normandy crash landed on a garden world, which specifically looks like a DLC world from ME2 that would have been impossible to get to while the mass relays are exploding, survived being knocked out of either ftl/mass relay jump and having its engines torn off, and landing in the middle of what looks like a forested mountain range, without disturbing ANY of the foliage, is grounds for immediate dismissal that the scene is real. 

LOL. Very true! :)


Yeah, can't argue with that.  Also, just a heads up, at this point, I'm going to assume that Shepard was the one who completed all the DLC, default Shep be darned.  Also, I'm going to assume that all the Loyalty missions were completed.  Honestly, canon is something that ME has never really had.

Edit: Or if it did and/or does have it, it's always has been and/or will be very weird and hard to define.

like Wash.


I'm guessing you've noticed the huge amount of 'inspiration' taken from Firefly in mass effect> I mean, simon being a whiny **** over his sister is so totally miranda it isn't even funny Posted Image

#4558
HellishFiend

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DJBare wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


But if they made the ending too satisfying, people would have been less likely to question it. If less people questioned it, IT may not be what it is today. 

I agree, but that's the problem, most believe they have purchased the "complete" game, if I.T turns out true, then they did not get the "complete" game and their anger would be understandable, I'm only on board with it because the EC is free, if they were charging for it I'd be furious.


I certainly see where you're coming from, but "furious" is a stretch, really. Good games like the ones Bioware makes must have you spoiled, because there are games out there with endings far worse, or that end in cliffhangers that never get resolved. There was a GREAT ps2 game called Psi-Ops, it had fantastic gameplay and a decent story, but it literally ended in an unsatisfying cliffhanger and never got a sequel. Imagine if ME3 ended with Hackett's speech to the fleet, and then Bioware decided not to make ME4. Aside from raising a stink, there would be nothing we could do.

Fact of the matter is, a game ends however the maker wants it to end. If you want to know what you're getting before you get it, it's the consumer's responsibility to get thorough reviews before purchasing. If they want to end it without ending it, and then require you to purchase DLC to have a satisfying conclusion, the only way to discourage that is to not buy the offending products. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 22 mai 2012 - 10:25 .


#4559
dreamgazer

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HellishFiend wrote...

But if they made the ending too satisfying, people would have been less likely to question it. If less people questioned it, IT may not be what it is today. 


I think I'm in the minority here, but I'd personally pay money all over again to be screwed with like that---and to have been confronted with that type of fourth-wall-breaking, dot-connecting, analytical approach to the endings, both on a literal level and on the "don't trust the catalyst" psychological level. 

Mentioned it a few days ago in another thread, but it'd feel kinda like Fincher's The Game.  

Whether it's an intended social experiment or not, it's assuredly generated some intriguing results as one---and the facets of discussing the ending have mostly made for fascinating discourse, at least in my opinion.

#4560
byne

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HellishFiend wrote...

I certainly see where you're coming from, but "furious" is a stretch, really. Good games like the ones Bioware makes must have you spoiled, because there are games out there with endings far worse, or that end in cliffhangers that never get resolved. There was a GREAT ps2 game called Psi-Ops, it had fantastic gameplay and a decent story, but it literally ended in an unsatisfying cliffhanger and never got a sequel. 



Oh man. I remember that game. I freakin loved that game.

#4561
HellishFiend

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dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

But if they made the ending too satisfying, people would have been less likely to question it. If less people questioned it, IT may not be what it is today. 


I think I'm in the minority here, but I'd personally pay money all over again to be screwed with like that---and to have been confronted with that type of fourth-wall-breaking, dot-connecting, analytical approach to the endings, both on a literal level and on the "don't trust the catalyst" psychological level. 

Mentioned it a few days ago in another thread, but it'd feel kinda like Fincher's The Game.  

Whether it's an intended social experiment or not, it's assuredly generated some intriguing results as one---and the facets of discussing the ending have mostly made for fascinating discourse, at least in my opinion.


I agree. Something that is unprecedented can only be unprecedented once, so this is literally a once in a lifetime experience. That's why I'm here. :)

#4562
HellishFiend

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byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I certainly see where you're coming from, but "furious" is a stretch, really. Good games like the ones Bioware makes must have you spoiled, because there are games out there with endings far worse, or that end in cliffhangers that never get resolved. There was a GREAT ps2 game called Psi-Ops, it had fantastic gameplay and a decent story, but it literally ended in an unsatisfying cliffhanger and never got a sequel. 



Oh man. I remember that game. I freakin loved that game.


Did you ever play it co-op? One person could control the character's movements while the other controlled the psi powers. Words fail me when it comes to describing how much fun a friend and I had with that. 

#4563
byne

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HellishFiend wrote...

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I certainly see where you're coming from, but "furious" is a stretch, really. Good games like the ones Bioware makes must have you spoiled, because there are games out there with endings far worse, or that end in cliffhangers that never get resolved. There was a GREAT ps2 game called Psi-Ops, it had fantastic gameplay and a decent story, but it literally ended in an unsatisfying cliffhanger and never got a sequel. 



Oh man. I remember that game. I freakin loved that game.


Did you ever play it co-op? One person could control the character's movements while the other controlled the psi powers. Words fail me when it comes to describing how much fun a friend and I had with that. 


I dont think I ever did, but that sounds like it would be hilariously fun. Probly more fun the less your friend cooperated with you.

#4564
MegumiAzusa

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Lord Luc1fer wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Ostensibly the other human female crewmembers of the Normandy survived. I dont remember the exact crew count on the ship, if they ever said it, but there could feasibly be enough to grow a population. Not that I'm defending face value or anything, but we cant exactly point a finger at that as proof of IT. 

Oh yeah, I did not mean to imply that what I was saying supported IT. I just find the whole scenario to be unrealistic, and I have a hard time suspending my disbelief...probably because I'm a biologist (ok, technically i am only a grad student!).


As far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Normandy crash landed on a garden world, which specifically looks like a DLC world from ME2 that would have been impossible to get to while the mass relays are exploding, survived being knocked out of either ftl/mass relay jump and having its engines torn off, and landing in the middle of what looks like a forested mountain range, without disturbing ANY of the foliage, is grounds for immediate dismissal that the scene is real. 

LOL. Very true! :)


Yeah, can't argue with that.  Also, just a heads up, at this point, I'm going to assume that Shepard was the one who completed all the DLC, default Shep be darned.  Also, I'm going to assume that all the Loyalty missions were completed.  Honestly, canon is something that ME has never really had.

Edit: Or if it did and/or does have it, it's always has been and/or will be very weird and hard to define.

like Wash.


I'm guessing you've noticed the huge amount of 'inspiration' taken from Firefly in mass effect> I mean, simon being a whiny **** over his sister is so totally miranda it isn't even funny Posted Image

Like any successful work it draws inspiration from many sources.
Similarities to Lovecraft's Cthulu and Saberhagen's Berserker (especially with the Qwip Qwip joke) are even more blant.

#4565
HellishFiend

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byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...



Did you ever play it co-op? One person could control the character's movements while the other controlled the psi powers. Words fail me when it comes to describing how much fun a friend and I had with that. 


I dont think I ever did, but that sounds like it would be hilariously fun. Probly more fun the less your friend cooperated with you.


That is exactly why words fail me. To this day there has been nothing else quite like it.  Trolling each other was just as much, if not more fun than actually cooperating to proceed with the game.  :lol:

#4566
Dwailing

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Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.

#4567
MegumiAzusa

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Dwailing wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.

No, in the comics no one could understand the Reaper language.

#4568
dreamgazer

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Dwailing wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.


Nah, I think the Reapers understand the language of the insignificant mortals, and would communicate on our plane. 

I do like the emphasis on "Harbinger speaks of you" in that conversation.  Wonder why

#4569
Dwailing

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.

No, in the comics no one could understand the Reaper language.

Well, I guess that's one for us, then.

#4570
Dwailing

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dreamgazer wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.


Nah, I think the Reapers understand the language of the insignificant mortals, and would communicate on our plane. 

I do like the emphasis on "Harbinger speaks of you" in that conversation.  Wonder why


Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  Look at Javik, one touch and he spoke perfect English.  I figure that if an organic could do it, the Reapers probably could too, considering how many people they've indoctrinated, huskified, etc.

#4571
HellishFiend

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dreamgazer wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.


Nah, I think the Reapers understand the language of the insignificant mortals, and would communicate on our plane. 

I do like the emphasis on "Harbinger speaks of you" in that conversation.  Wonder why


Yeah, for beings of an "existence so far beyond ours that we cannot even imagine it", they sure show a surprising amount of interest in Shepard. :blink:<_<

#4572
Rifneno

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Geth Hunter style for the win :) the eye strain headache :(


Fixed.

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I was just rewatching this (great review by sfdebris btw) as I noticed something: he talks about how in ME2 your main enemy are the Collectors and that there is lots of talk about it, but you rarely face them, only in 3 missions to be exact.
Now in ME3 the focal point is again the Reapers, and there are again 3 missions that actually are about defeating them, but again you never really take out one of the big ones.
And another thing he mentioned at the end of the review: "but the frequent references in the game is to humanities wide genetic variance, not to mention the plague on Omega was to force such mutations on other species" note that these references aren't only by Harbinger, but also as a side note in Mordin's loyalty mission. Now if we look specifically at synthesis: does this in any way support any genetic variance? I guess not, as one of the goals is to make something more equal.
I don't think BioWare would just drop this. Also Tali specifically mentions Haestrom in ME3 while mourning after Legion sacrificed itself, Freedom's Progress is never mentioned, it's mentioned in a dialog when doing the Tuchanka bomb with her (seems again like ME2 is was planned to be more open instead of streamlined), and it's a side note for a conversation with Liara when choosing her for the Dreadnought.


1. Well since Shepard is always on foot, it's hard to have him/her tackle a capital ship. They made Destroyers specifically so Shepard could fight mini-Reapers on foot. That said, I agree that it should've happened. It would probably require some convoluted logic to have Shepard survive a battle with a capital ship, but I doubt it'd be worse than the current silliness we have where the Reapers trust all the super important tasks to a lone Destroyer when there's thousands of capital ships just roaming about looking scary. In fact... since so many people think IT was too subtle (donno how, but okay) perhaps in a Shepard vs. capital ship battle, what leads to the Reaper's downfall could be the fact it refused to outright kill Shepard and insisted on taking him alive.

2. I always thought they should've used the "humans have wide genetic variances" for the complaints about everyone in ME being straight as an arrow. It wouldn't work for the human characters but they could've reasonably said aliens don't vary in sexuality and that it's a human thing. Then again maybe it would backfire and people would just be offended, thinking it was implying there's something wrong with it. ... Anyway. I think the reason the Collectors were testing viable mutation variances on aliens is because the Reapers now know how much they can modify/mutate/augment/whatever the current species. For instance, they know what they've done the most effective mutations to marauders that they can survive. Clearly asari had the highest threshold though. Seriously, how asinine is it that the enemy who can take the most damage is a naked asari? Brutes, which are mostly krogans covered in actual armor, can't handle nearly what a naked blue chick can?

byne wrote...

Except we were already building Jump Zero out beyond the orbit of Pluto in 2143, and we didnt discover mass effect technology until 5 years later.

So sure, maybe they cant build a FTL drive without eezo, but theres really no reason they wouldnt have tech, and even slow starships to just explore the local system after 10,000 years.


Wait, what? You sure that timeline is right? Because they got element zero from the Prothean archive on Mars. To say that Mars is much closer than Pluto would be a monumental understatement. I don't recall how far Mars is, but it's relatively close as far as planets go. Earth is about 8 light minutes from Sol, Pluto is about 9 light hours from Sol. In fact Pluto is so far out that astronomers aren't sure if we have a planet beyond it because it's so far from the sun it's just too dark to see. Which is interesting since based on gravitational evidence many believe there is a gas giant past Pluto.

... Sorry, I digress. My point is, Pluto is a hell of a ways to go without mass effect technology.

blooregard wrote...

some deformities are recessive but repeated incestious breeding causes them to manifest in those who weren't carriers.


Well, it took us 2,300 pages but we've finally degenerated to an incest discussion. The only thing inevitable on the Internet.

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

"OHSH*T!" had me laughing so hard! Why you make me wanna mess with people in MP? Wish I had ME3 on 360 so I we could get a few rounds in but alas I'm a PC gamer.


I don't know why either. It's a pretty asstastic thing to do. Go into a co-op game and troll your "team" into wasting their attention and ammo on a fake enemy. Yeah, it's a real mystery why so many people hate MP.

blooregard wrote...

Hell since I'm grasping at straws now might as well finish my theory that the Reapers gave the Geth a very primitive boost of self awareness to provoke the morning war (IMO the term "does this unit have a soul" is far too individualistic to have been the geth achieving self awareness by themselves)


Wow, that'd be a fun twist. And exactly the kind of douchebaggery that Sovereign would've loved to pull.

Dwailing wrote...

No kidding! This is one of the greatest experiences of my entire (Admittedly short so far.) life. I've met great people from around the world, and I've participated in discussion with people who's intelligences are far greater than mine who also love this stuff as much if not more than I do.


Don't sell yourself short. :)

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Yeah, it's been brought up a few times. The literalist interpretation is that it's because the Reaper's voice is just really loud. Because it's not like Shepard is around loud stuff like gunfire, grenades, explosions, ect. all the time. Another part of it I find very interesting is that the Reaper rambles about the impossibility of organics and synthetics co-existing. Tali and Legion are standing a few feet away and neither one chimes in on the topic. Tali and Legion had nothing to say about that topic? Yeah, okay.

#4573
HellishFiend

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Rifneno wrote...



Yeah, it's been brought up a few times. The literalist interpretation is that it's because the Reaper's voice is just really loud. Because it's not like Shepard is around loud stuff like gunfire, grenades, explosions, ect. all the time. Another part of it I find very interesting is that the Reaper rambles about the impossibility of organics and synthetics co-existing. Tali and Legion are standing a few feet away and neither one chimes in on the topic. Tali and Legion had nothing to say about that topic? Yeah, okay.


For anyone reading that hasnt seen it:
   

:lol:

Modifié par HellishFiend, 22 mai 2012 - 10:47 .


#4574
Lord Luc1fer

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Ostensibly the other human female crewmembers of the Normandy survived. I dont remember the exact crew count on the ship, if they ever said it, but there could feasibly be enough to grow a population. Not that I'm defending face value or anything, but we cant exactly point a finger at that as proof of IT. 

Oh yeah, I did not mean to imply that what I was saying supported IT. I just find the whole scenario to be unrealistic, and I have a hard time suspending my disbelief...probably because I'm a biologist (ok, technically i am only a grad student!).


As far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Normandy crash landed on a garden world, which specifically looks like a DLC world from ME2 that would have been impossible to get to while the mass relays are exploding, survived being knocked out of either ftl/mass relay jump and having its engines torn off, and landing in the middle of what looks like a forested mountain range, without disturbing ANY of the foliage, is grounds for immediate dismissal that the scene is real. 

LOL. Very true! :)


Yeah, can't argue with that.  Also, just a heads up, at this point, I'm going to assume that Shepard was the one who completed all the DLC, default Shep be darned.  Also, I'm going to assume that all the Loyalty missions were completed.  Honestly, canon is something that ME has never really had.

Edit: Or if it did and/or does have it, it's always has been and/or will be very weird and hard to define.

like Wash.


I'm guessing you've noticed the huge amount of 'inspiration' taken from Firefly in mass effect> I mean, simon being a whiny **** over his sister is so totally miranda it isn't even funny Posted Image

Like any successful work it draws inspiration from many sources.
Similarities to Lovecraft's Cthulu and Saberhagen's Berserker (especially with the Qwip Qwip joke) are even more blant.


Wow! It's wierd you emntion the Cthulu thing - read cthulu's call recently and the whole idea of a massive sea creature getting into people's heads was quite familiar - it would seem cthulu takes the role of 'sovereign' in that he is the priest that wakes the others

#4575
MegumiAzusa

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Dwailing wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Has anyone noticed when Shepard is talking to the Reaper on Rannoch the Camera goes really funny, and also when was Shepard able to "talk" to a reaper. We've only spoken to reapers via VI's, never the actual reaper.

Unless Shepard can understand Reaper language, a sign of early indoctrination.


Unless Reapers speak English, or some other language understood by the translator.


Nah, I think the Reapers understand the language of the insignificant mortals, and would communicate on our plane. 

I do like the emphasis on "Harbinger speaks of you" in that conversation.  Wonder why.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  Look at Javik, one touch and he spoke perfect English.  I figure that if an organic could do it, the Reapers probably could too, considering how many people they've indoctrinated, huskified, etc.

Sure, I'm also more worried why no one of your team cared to ask why you're talking to a Reaper.
Also did you notice the white lights on the Rannoch destroyer flicker but the lights on the London destroyer don't? Imo it isn't dead and they wanted Shep to pass.