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[HellishFiend]

RavenEyry wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
Yup, and that is only the start. That video only scratches the surface. The thematic implications presented across the trilogy are staggering in scope and amount. Turbo and I are planning on making and releasing videos up until the reveal. Definitely no lack of material in that area. 

The sheer amount of quotes and incidents that support destroy or go against synthesis/control in the games really is amazing. I'm starting to think the ending options were foreshadowed after all, to the effect of 'choose this one'.

They are. Heavily so. The quotes and incidents are only part of it. There are many things that thematically suggest that Destroy is correct and that Synth/Control are wrong. Some as massive as Mordin/Legion's deaths, and some much more subtle than that. When you start to make all the connections, BW's writing ability starts to look even more impressive than it already did (prior to the literal endings, anyway). 

[RavenEyry]

Iconoclaste wrote...

In EC, they actually tried to "bury" these textures under new whole 3d bodies in the Citadel's corridor, so they are much less obvious.

Are the 2D Ashley-body piles still next to the beam?

[Lord Goose]

which implies that Shepard actually
does something to stop them in the Control/Synthesis
endings. I disagree

In Synthesis Reapers ''awakens'', starts sharing knowledge and live together with people. Saren never said that he wanted something like that, all he done was boasting.
In Control harvest is also stopped, and Reapers start to rebuild galaxy. Maybe it is that TIM wanted, but he never done anything to achieve it. Instead of trying to build the Crucible he was trying to sabotage it, instead of hiding the Catalyst, he told about it to the Reapers. Etc.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Yeah, I speculated before that they just used a model they already had because it was practical. It still doesn't explain the 2D models of Ash and Kaiden though because those models didn't need to be there. I'd put this piece of "evidence" in the same category as the 2D models.

In EC, they actually tried to "bury" these textures under new whole 3d bodies in the Citadel's corridor, so they are much less obvious.

The majority of them were outside the beam though. Inside the Citadel the only 2 I noticed was to the right and left of the ramp in the "engine room" area. "Burying" is completely different from "removing." If Bioware wanted to get rid of evidence in the EC then they would have removed these models, not bury them.

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...


In Synthesis Reapers ''awakens'', starts sharing knowledge and live together with people. Saren never said that he wanted something like that, all he done was boasting.
.

The Reapers already see themselves as the pinnacle of evolution and understanding. The notion that Shepard flinging himself into the Crucible's beam somehow enlightens them to the point where they are no longer compelled to harvest organics is entirely laughable. 

[TSA_383]

EpyonX3 wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

I go away to try to beat reaper gold (help!) and this thread gets stickied to the top of the forum?
Hot damn.

Wish I could help you. I've full extracted against Reaper gold at least a dozen times this weekend already. 

Look at him go!

I don't play MP that much but all this talk about reaper gold is making want to try it. I'll probably go down in a round or two but anyone on PC want to try it with me?

You can join our ME3 multiplayer team of epic fail
My origin: ShadowTLoak (damn right I only got origin for ME3 )

Iconoclaste wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

This
was answered by a guy "working in the gaming industry" a few days ago,
but I don't remember if it was here or another thread. Mainly, by the
way, players don't see Maj. Coates, they only see the helmet. The use of
flycam involves modding the Coalesced.bin file, which is doubtly
allowed by the EULA, and all players on consoles are denied that option,
so the "discovery" of evidence by flycam is only for pc. I do not
believe Bioware intended this.

You're right, it wasn't visible without flycam so they could have used a random model without thinking about it.

The only reason I can think of "why Coates' model and not a random soldier"
is because, like the "game maker" said, this was the only model
available in the "cooked" packaged for these sets, so they used it
instead of having to re-cook unnecessary packages.

Anyway, I'm going to take a dive in the pool, my kid and I are melting in the heat here. Have fun, always interesting to read.

It's
not, though. There are standard alliance soldiers in the same packages,
and the game can pull files from other packages during a level anyway,
it does so right at the start when Shepard is knocked down when the
reapers arrive (it pulls the whispers from the dream sequence files).
And that animation was a lot of work! Having two characters interact like that isn't something you do casually, it takes time!

[Lord Goose]

The quotes and incidents are only part
of it. There are many things that thematically suggest that
Destroy is correct and that Synth/Control are wrong.

Ever heard of confirmation bias?
For example, Quarians allowing Geth to live in their suits is foreshadowing for Synthesis.
Quest about rogue AI on the citadel foreshadows control vs destroy choice.
Legion loyalty mission too.

Just few instances.

[Jusseb]

I was brainstorming a few days ago about upcoming singleplayer DLC.
If you think about it, Shepard actually didn't meet the catalyst yet when we are playing those DLC's because either way you start a new game or your legend save file will be used right before you should hit the Illusive Man's base.

So hopefully should get a few more answers when playing the Omega DLC or The Leviathan of Dis.

[RavenEyry]

TSA_383 wrote...
It's
not, though. There are standard alliance soldiers in the same packages,
and the game can pull files from other packages during a level anyway,
it does so right at the start when Shepard is knocked down when the
reapers arrive (it pulls the whispers from the dream sequence files).
And that animation was a lot of work! Having two characters interact like that isn't something you do casually, it takes time!

Do the standard alliance soldiers have heads under there helmets though? (From a technical standpoint of course, I know the characters have heads)

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Actually, I would like to retract my statement of Bioware using Coats' model because it was practical to not make another model for a scene we weren't really supposed to see. After you get up from getting hit by Harbinger's beam there are quite a few Alliance soldiers without helmets on. Any one of these soldiers could have been used. It would have made more sense and would have created much less speculation on that scene. However, for Coats' body to be on the Citadel, how long must Shepard have been out for?

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

The quotes and incidents are only part
of it. There are many things that thematically suggest that
Destroy is correct and that Synth/Control are wrong.

Ever heard of confirmation bias?
For example, Quarians allowing Geth to live in their suits is foreshadowing for Synthesis.
Quest about rogue AI on the citadel foreshadows control vs destroy choice.
Legion loyalty mission too.

Just few instances.

All some literalists seem to do to try and win an argument is throw around terms and phrases out of context. What exactly do you think you're proving by using phrases like "confirmation bias" or "Occam's Razor"? I mean really. You cant just cite a phrase and expect it to win your argument for you. 

Oh, and your "thematic" connections are ridiculously wrong, but the fact that you made them in the first place seems to indicate that you wouldnt be able to fathom the correct connections anyway. Though if you want to try, watch my Choose Wisely video. You'd have to be in complete denial to think the connections depicted in that video are wrong.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:13 .

[paxxton]

Any news on what might have been on that screen Gamble pointed everyone to?

[RavenEyry]

Lord Goose wrote...

Quest about rogue AI on the citadel foreshadows control vs destroy choice.

What, the one that kills itself so Shep can't kill it? I thought that was just a comical little sidequest, not foreshadowing anything.

[Lord Goose]

The Reapers already see themselves as the pinnacle of
evolution and understanding. The notion that Shepard
flinging himself into the Crucible's beam somehow
enlightens them to the point where they are no longer
compelled to harvest organics is entirely laughable.

Why do they harvest organics? Because of cycle.
Were they creators of cycles? No, they were prisoners of the same pattern. At very least, according to prothean VI.

[v0rt3x22]

paxxton wrote...

Any news on what might have been on that screen Gamble pointed everyone to?

Modifié par v0rt3x22, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:13 .

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

The Reapers already see themselves as the pinnacle of
evolution and understanding. The notion that Shepard
flinging himself into the Crucible's beam somehow
enlightens them to the point where they are no longer
compelled to harvest organics is entirely laughable.

Why do they harvest organics? Because of cycle.
Were they creators of cycles? No, they were prisoners of the same pattern. At very least, according to prothean VI.

Again, you're implying that everything you see and hear in the game is trustworthy and correct. In a trilogy where deception, manipulation, and corrupted beliefs is one of the prevalent themes. That is pretty naive, in my humble opinion. 

[Emiya_Archer]

There is no literal explanation for this:

The kid screaming, really Bioware!

[Simon_Says]

We got stickied? Awesome! If it wasn't a mistake then it definitely means we're doing something right.

RavenEyry wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

"Literalist" is just such an inaccurate term for most people, in fact for everyone who happen not to agree with IT. I think "non-ITer" is better but then it gives the impression that everything revolves IT or that most people even think it's a good idea. Any thoughts on a new name?

What's wrong with 'literalist'?

I'm actually starting to think it's a good idea to rethink the labels. The thing about IT is that it's actually a very specific interpretation when you boil it down: The end sequence of the game centers around an indoctrination attempt on Shepard. The problem is that the antithesis statement: the end sequence of the game does not center around an indoctrination attempt, is an incredibly broad and varied set of potential interpretations of which a 'literal' interpretation, i.e. that "what we saw is exactly what happened and there is no further subtext", is only one of them.

That bit about subtext is important. There are plenty of 'literalists' who accept the events depicted in the end sequence to have happened in meatspace but attempt to add their own subtext to expain and justify it. Like that one bloke who wrote that overly-long article arguing that the Catalyst was a shackled AI/VI compelled by its programming to prevent hard-takeoff singularities from wiping out organic life. Or even my own Selfish Meme Theory which is pseudo-literalist in that argues that what the Starbrat said could have been 'genuinely non-malicious' from a certain (twisted) point of view. These are 'literalist' interpretations, but ones that still involved adding subtext to the scenes presented.

The interpretation that there is no subtext to the ending of Mass Effect 3, which often involves the classic "Bioware is lazy" argument, then should not be called literalism but something else. The best term I can offer in its stead is 'reductionist', since that interpretation involves reducing the ending down to simply what was presented and assuming there is no deeper meaning to be found.

TLDR: If we call T 'theorist' and L 'literalist', then it's simply not the case that L == anti-T or vice-versa.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:37 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

HellishFiend wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
Yup, and that is only the start. That video only scratches the surface. The thematic implications presented across the trilogy are staggering in scope and amount. Turbo and I are planning on making and releasing videos up until the reveal. Definitely no lack of material in that area. 

The sheer amount of quotes and incidents that support destroy or go against synthesis/control in the games really is amazing. I'm starting to think the ending options were foreshadowed after all, to the effect of 'choose this one'.

They are. Heavily so. The quotes and incidents are only part of it. There are many things that thematically suggest that Destroy is correct and that Synth/Control are wrong. Some as massive as Mordin/Legion's deaths, and some much more subtle than that. When you start to make all the connections, BW's writing ability starts to look even more impressive than it already did (prior to the literal endings, anyway). 

Someone really needs to do a list with all of them cause it is pretty extreme how many quotes support Destroy. I think the first IT docomentary had alot of them though.

And the only support and examples of Synthesis and Control are found in TIM and Saren as well as other Indoctrinated persons...I cant see how that can be a coincedence.

[paxxton]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Any news on what might have been on that screen Gamble pointed everyone to?

Yeah, an Atlas. But is this from a DLC or what? Did they say anything?

[Chriz Tah Fah]

paxxton wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Any news on what might have been on that screen Gamble pointed everyone to?

Yeah, an Atlas. But is this from a DLC or what? Did they say anything?

Well if it's underwater it could be Leviathan. I mean, a leviathan is a sea monster after all.

[v0rt3x22]

paxxton wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Any news on what might have been on that screen Gamble pointed everyone to?

Yeah, an Atlas. But is this from a DLC or what? Did they say anything?

nope they didn't comment on it as far as I'm aware.

[TSA_383]

RavenEyry wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
It's
not, though. There are standard alliance soldiers in the same packages,
and the game can pull files from other packages during a level anyway,
it does so right at the start when Shepard is knocked down when the
reapers arrive (it pulls the whispers from the dream sequence files).
And that animation was a lot of work! Having two characters interact like that isn't something you do casually, it takes time!

Do the standard alliance soldiers have heads under there helmets though? (From a technical standpoint of course, I know the characters have heads)

Yup, and all those soldiers at the beam before you teleport up (a scene coates is now no longer loaded into) would be just fine if we weren't meant to see the face.

But no, they added an extra model load just to have the helmet come off coates

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Quest about rogue AI on the citadel foreshadows control vs destroy choice.

What, the one that kills itself so Shep can't kill it? I thought that was just a comical little sidequest, not foreshadowing anything.

And it is the complete opposite of the catalyst logic. The AI on the Citadel says Organics will always kill Synthetics, Catalyst says the opposite.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[Lord Goose]

Though if you want to try, watch my
Choose Wisely video. You'd have to be in complete denial to
think the connections depicted in that video are wrong.

Can you please refrain from ''if you disagree with me, you're delusional/in denial/cultist''? I watched the video, but do not find your arguments convincing.


I just meant that sometimes even if something feels right it still could be not. Because people tend to find only evidence which supports their own point of view, and disregard everything which goes against it.

Care to explain how reprogramming of heretics is different from reprogramming the reapers? The only difference is scale for me.

Or, can you explain to me, why Paragon never clearly express desire to destroy the Reapers, while Renegade does?

Or maybe you can name any indoctrination attempt in form of complex visions, where you can make a choice, which allow you to beat such an attempt?