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[SwiftSlash]

MaximizedAction wrote...

SwiftSlash wrote...

So, the last child sounds from the last dream really sounded like they were being played backwards to me...and honestly still do.

I've played them backwards and found nothing. It's does sound like he says "falling asleep" once, but doubtful it means anything.

Him laughing and sobbing is scarey as hell backwards, though

I think it's rather a sound effect to make it sound like played reversed, but the vocal is actually correct. I remember those soundfiles, TSA posted them at some point...there's even a youtube vid with those dream voices.

Well I can confirm it's nothing. Except 10 minutes wasted. Haha

[GethPrimeMKII]

masster blaster wrote...

Paxxton but now we can go head with our plan and mayne we could pull this off.

You really can't combine completely incompatable theories like this. Also many literalists aren't arguing because they've placed a great deal of faith in their interpretation. They're arguing for the sake of trolling. It's how they entertain themselves. 

[Priss Blackburne]

Is this about getting everyone together to harass Bioware to give an answer on IT? Because I don't really like the idea and don't see anything good coming of it. If Bioware doesn't want to answer about this right now it should not be forced onto them.

At first the outcry about the endings I felt where semi-justified, but lately it seems to be more of a bullying or a personal vendetta against Bioware. I really don't like bullying in any form. The more the hate goes on the more I feel sad for the BSN people who want to discuss things about a game they love.

I know you want an answer yes or no. You feel Bioware is stringing you along or playing with your emotions. These people Love games as much as anyone of us. They respect gamers because they are gamers. To think that they would be deliberating trying to spur emotions of hate and betrayal is absurd in my eye.

Bioware will give an answer sooner or later about what the future of Mass Effect will be. Forcing their hand will only bring disappointment to both sides.

*** okay rant mode off, building that for a while **

Edit: this is more like my little explosion over the aggressive behavior towards Bioware then anything else.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:34 .

[paxxton]

No! It's not about bullying or harrassing anyone. It's about understanding the ending and forging peace.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[Lord Goose]

He doesn't specifically refer to synthesis as we know it but the similarities are difnately there.

-Join us, and I believe Sovereign will find a place for you.
- (as a slave?) I would rather die, than live like this.
-When you will die. And your companions. Everyone you know and love. Everyone you have ever met. Don't you understand? You will all die! The Reapers cannot be stopped. Not by the Protheans, not by you. The cycle always continues.

Synthesis is still a way of breaking the cycle, just different one. But as you see, Saren only was concerned about dying, and wanted to join Reapers to survive.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:34 .

[Emiya_Archer]

The kid laughs and reaper noises are heard (including the infamous serves us line) during the dreams.

From 2:43 till 3:46.

[masster blaster]

No it's not an out cry but speculations. To see if this is what Bioware wanted. Also why not. There are evidnce that IT can be real, but also the non literalist.

[Uncle Jo]

Lord Goose wrote...

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steal.
The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life.
This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth!" - Saren Arterius.

As I said, it is nothing but boasting. Saren doesn't wants peace, nor he wants to upgrade all inhabitants of the galaxy to remove difference between organics and synthetics. He only wants to prove yourself useful for the Reapers and, thus, survive invasion. He just wants to be on winners side.

He sure didn't know of synthesis, but he describes almost literally what happens if you pick green. A real visionary.

I especially love "The evolution of ALL organic life" and "It's our destiny". It does remind me of someone Shep meets in the end of the trilogy.

If we take the endings at face value (and I won't deny that it's also a valid possibility), Shep really looks like an absolute idiot for having stopped Saren and TIM, who were right after all. Even more with the extended cut.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:35 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Goose wrote...

So how do you change the mind of something you dont even know if thinks by organic or synthetic means or a combination (probably) and even more so when you cannot even develop a viable way of controlling the way weaker Synthetic you yourself created.

We also know that Reapers, in fact, were not creators of the cycle, but followed the pattern, created by somebody else. So it means, that they can be controled.

Oh yeah Vendetta told us this, dident he. Well I am gonna ask a question of you reagrding Vendetta.

How does he know? No quite seriusly how does he know about this pattern?

The Prothean were the last cycle and the Reapers take great care to destroy just about everything left behind by each cycle. To Quote Liara: "We know little of the Prothean and next to nothing of those who came before."

While Liara does deduce that the Protheans and the ones before´s fall happened suddenly she knows nothing of the cause.

Yet somehow, working with what has to have been very, very miniscule amounts of knowledge of the Cycle the Protheans determine that the Reapers are simply following a pattern and not the creators of this? How did they reach this conclusion?

If there is so little information left behind from cycle to cycle and the catalyst as a beeing being entirely unknown by every cycle (remember Shepard is the first organic to reach the palce where the catalyst is) then how did the Prothean learn that the Reapers were not the masters of the cycle?

It is even more curouis when you consider that this information had to have been compiled after the Reapers (the Reapers still caught them off guard so clearly they dident know of them) arrived meaning who ever made this conclusion and incoporated it in Vendetta did so bases solely on the Reapers actions near Thessia and surrounding systems (remember the Relay network was cut of).

Yet Humanity and the other Races with a full Relay network and nearly 3 years of warning ahead as well as the war itself never found a clue that the reapers were not the masters?

I am sorry, but something smells here and part of it is Vendetta.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:36 .

[RavenEyry]

Emiya_Archer wrote...

The kid laughs and reaper noises are heard (including the infamous serves us line) during the dreams.

From 2:43 till 3:46.

There's always been many interesting noises in the dreams, such as companions apparently saying variations on 'don't trust it' and such.

[masster blaster]

Also Paxxton is right about no more aguing and calling people names.

[Lord Goose]

If we take the endings at face value (and I won't deny that it's also a valid possibility), Shep really looks like an absolute idiot for having stopped Saren and TIM, who were right after all. Even more with the extended cut.

If Shepard hasn't stopped Saren, everybody who was opposing the Reapers would have died. Saren is quite explicit about "everyonewill die, but me".

And, as I said, TIM does nothing to establish control over the Reapers. Shepard gathers war assets, Shepards builds the Crucible. TIM only tries to sabotage controlling device and for some reason discloses information about Catalyst to the enemy. He clearly cannot be trusted, no matter what he wants.

[Riot86]

Lord Goose wrote...

As I said, it is nothing but boasting. Saren doesn't wants peace, nor he wants to upgrade all inhabitants of the galaxy to remove difference between organics and synthetics. He only wants to prove yourself useful for the Reapers and, thus, survive invasion. He just wants to be on winners side.

I actually get the feeling you don't fully understand the plot of Mass Effect 1...

Saren doesn't boast here. At this point he really believes that this is the right way, the only way. And he is describing nothing else than SYNTHESIS.

For comparision, the Starchild explains SYNTHESIS like this:
"Organics seek perfectrion through technology, synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics. It is the ideal solution".
...sounds a lot like just another way of saying "The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither", doesn't it?

Whch makes Synthesis even more disturbing - it is not what Saren originally wanted (which is, as you said correctly, just to be spared). It is what the indoctrinated(!) Saren wants. Which is even worse

Modifié par Riot86, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .

[MaximizedAction]

masster blaster wrote...

Also Paxxton is right about no more aguing and calling people names.

True, and since we've been somewhat promoted, we also now have to behave appropriately.

[Lord Goose]

Oh yeah Vendetta told us this, dident he. Well I am gonna ask a question of you reagrding Vendetta.

We have almost the same information from two sources independent from each other. We also have no real reason to not believe Vendetta, at very least, we cannot choose not to believe him. We actually launch final assault, because we believe that Vendetta was right about the Catalyst.

Yet somehow, working with what has to have been very, very miniscule amounts of knowledge of the Cycle the Protheans determine that the Reapers are simply following a pattern and not the creators of this? How did they reach this conclusion?

We don't know how much information about previous cycles Prothean who created Vendetta had. And how they deduced that Citadel was the Catalyst, obtained Reaper scheme, etc. We actually doesn't know much besides the fact that they managed to resist for centuries.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Lord Goose wrote...

If we take the endings at face value (and I won't deny that it's also a valid possibility), Shep really looks like an absolute idiot for having stopped Saren and TIM, who were right after all. Even more with the extended cut.

If Shepard hasn't stopped Saren, everybody who was opposing the Reapers would have died. Saren is quite explicit about "everyonewill die, but me".

And, as I said, TIM does nothing to establish control over the Reapers. Shepard gathers war assets, Shepards builds the Crucible. TIM only tries to sabotage controlling device and for some reason discloses information about Catalyst to the enemy. He clearly cannot be trusted, no matter what he wants.

I disagree. Saren believed that allying with the reapers would "save more lives than have ever existed". You make it seem like he made a concious desicion to save his own hide at the expense of everyone else.

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:49 .

[Lord Goose]

Saren doesn't boast here. At this point he really believes that this is the right way, the only way. And he is describing nothing else than SYNTHESIS.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steal.
The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. Join us, Shepard, and I believe Sovereign will find a place for you.
- (as a slave?) I would rather die, than live like this.
-When you will die. And your companions. Everyone you know and love. Everyone you have ever met. Don't you understand? You will all die! The Reapers cannot be stopped. Not by the Protheans, not by you. The cycle always continues."

Saren doesn't want organics to have perfection, nor he want to give synthetis understanding. He simply believes that everyone, who will oppose the Reapers will die, and he wants to be on their side.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:49 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Lord Goose wrote...

If we take the endings at face value (and I won't deny that it's also a valid possibility), Shep really looks like an absolute idiot for having stopped Saren and TIM, who were right after all. Even more with the extended cut.

If Shepard hasn't stopped Saren, everybody who was opposing the Reapers would have died. Saren is quite explicit about "everyonewill die, but me".

And, as I said, TIM does nothing to establish control over the Reapers. Shepard gathers war assets, Shepards builds the Crucible. TIM only tries to sabotage controlling device and for some reason discloses information about Catalyst to the enemy. He clearly cannot be trusted, no matter what he wants.

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

If we take the endings at face value (and I won't deny that it's also a valid possibility), Shep really looks like an absolute idiot for having stopped Saren and TIM, who were right after all. Even more with the extended cut.

If Shepard hasn't stopped Saren, everybody who was opposing the Reapers would have died. Saren is quite explicit about "everyonewill die, but me".

And, as I said, TIM does nothing to establish control over the Reapers. Shepard gathers war assets, Shepards builds the Crucible. TIM only tries to sabotage controlling device and for some reason discloses information about Catalyst to the enemy. He clearly cannot be trusted, no matter what he wants.

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

He was also able to use indoctrination as a means of ensuring the loyalty of his troops and forcing unwilling refugees to fight for him. 

[RavenEyry]

Yes Saren wants to save himself, not improve the galaxy or whatever, but he believes synthesis is the way to do that.

[Lord Goose]

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

And he never tried to say, build device so powerful, that it's signal will allow him to control the Reapers. He actully went against it, when he told Reapers what Citadel is the Catalyst. Where was no good reason to do that.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Goose wrote...

Oh yeah Vendetta told us this, dident he. Well I am gonna ask a question of you reagrding Vendetta.

We have almost the same information from two sources independent from each other. We also have no real reason to not believe Vendetta, at very least, we cannot choose not to believe him. We actually launch final assault, because we believe that Vendetta was right about the Catalyst.

Yet somehow, working with what has to have been very, very miniscule amounts of knowledge of the Cycle the Protheans determine that the Reapers are simply following a pattern and not the creators of this? How did they reach this conclusion?

We don't know how much information about previous cycles Prothean who created Vendetta had. And how they deduced that Citadel was the Catalyst, obtained Reaper scheme, etc. We actually doesn't know much besides the fact that they managed to resist for centuries.

Wrong again.

We launch the final assault because we dont have any choice. The moment the fleet moves in to attack Cerbererus it gives away the location of the Crucible. Hackett says this before you head to Cerberus, once you attack there will be no turning back.

And we do know how much Information the Protheans had to work with, as much as Liara had to work with. Little about the Protheans (or in the Portheans case those who came before) next to nothing in the cycle before that and from there on only vague hints and dust. The reapers have repeated this cycle over and over I am pretty sure they are as thourough each time.

Yet no one in this Cycle even comes close to the information the Protheans supposedly found out, not even hints. In fact it is quite lucky that the reapers somehow missed the massive Prothean pillar which contained Vendetta (look at the cutscene where the floor collapses, that thing is huge).

At least the Mars Archive seemed like it was hidden beneath the surface.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .

[Lord Goose]

Yes Saren wants to save himself, not improve the galaxy or whatever, but he believes synthesis is the way to do that.

When where is no point of helping him. He is selfish, and doesn't care about the Galaxy.

I would agree, that he wanted Synthesis, if he believed that instead of killing everybody Reapers would be simply upgrading organics with technology, and would give synthetics understanding of organic life.

[Lord Goose]

And we do know how much Information the Protheans had to work with, as much as Liara had to work with. Little about the Protheans (or in the Portheans case those who came before) next to nothing in the cycle before that and from there on only vague hints and dust. The reapers have repeated this cycle over and over I am pretty sure they are as thourough each time.

We know, that in current cycle we knew a little about previous ones.
But we don't know how much exactly Protheans who created Vendetta knew about previous cycles. Considering that they knew about the Catalyst and we don't, they knew more than we.

[RavenEyry]

Lord Goose wrote...
 Where was no good reason to do that.

Apart from being indoctrinated you mean? He thought he was on the path to controlling them but really was just doing what they wanted. The same thing was mentioned to have happened to a group of protheans.