55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Lord Goose wrote...

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

And he never tried to say, build device so powerful, that it's signal will allow him to control the Reapers. He actully went against it, when he told Reapers what Citadel is the Catalyst. Where was no good reason to do that.

He was indoctrinated fully by this point probably. TIM has knowledge about the Citadel/Catalyst because he had access to a lot of information being the leader of Cerberus. It is more than likely that something like this would happen. However, wouldn't the reapers just "know" that the humans knew? Why would TIM need to actively tell the reapers?

[Lord Goose]

Apart from being indoctrinated you mean? He thought he was on the path to controlling them but really was just doing what they wanted.

Yes.
So I will say that his intentions were irrelevant. Even if he wanted to control, he did nothing to achieve it, and actually was working against it.

[FellishBeast]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

And he never tried to say, build device so powerful, that it's signal will allow him to control the Reapers. He actully went against it, when he told Reapers what Citadel is the Catalyst. Where was no good reason to do that.

He was indoctrinated fully by this point probably. TIM has knowledge about the Citadel/Catalyst because he had access to a lot of information being the leader of Cerberus. It is more than likely that something like this would happen. However, wouldn't the reapers just "know" that the humans knew? Why would TIM need to actively tell the reapers?

Reapers can influence your mind, but I don't think they can read it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Goose wrote...

Apart from being indoctrinated you mean? He thought he was on the path to controlling them but really was just doing what they wanted.

Yes.
So I will say that his intentions were irrelevant. Even if he wanted to control, he did nothing to achieve it, and actually was working against it.

He got control of Husks in Sanctuary.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:07 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

FellishBeast wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

And he never tried to say, build device so powerful, that it's signal will allow him to control the Reapers. He actully went against it, when he told Reapers what Citadel is the Catalyst. Where was no good reason to do that.

He was indoctrinated fully by this point probably. TIM has knowledge about the Citadel/Catalyst because he had access to a lot of information being the leader of Cerberus. It is more than likely that something like this would happen. However, wouldn't the reapers just "know" that the humans knew? Why would TIM need to actively tell the reapers?

Reapers can influence your mind, but I don't think they can read it.

Influencing TIM's mind would be enough to send him running to the reapers to tell them about humanities plans. So yes, this would work.

[RavenEyry]

FellishBeast wrote...

Reapers can influence your mind, but I don't think they can read it.

They knew about the kid, unless he was never real of course.

[Lord Goose]

He got control of Husk´s in Sanctuary.

But why he hid it from Alliance?

Why not bring all data to the scientist and claim, that he found a way to control the Reaper forces? Not only it would give him some support, but it would also have helped forces a little.

He only proved the concept, but never tried to do something more than that.

However, wouldn't the reapers just "know" that the humans knew? Why would TIM need to actively tell the reapers?

"The man who broke my defensive protocols had fled to the Citadel and informed the Reapers".

[GethPrimeMKII]

FellishBeast wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

TIM did some testing at sanctuary that allowed him to (kinda sorta?) control the reapers (I guess). This led him to believe that they could be controlled.

And he never tried to say, build device so powerful, that it's signal will allow him to control the Reapers. He actully went against it, when he told Reapers what Citadel is the Catalyst. Where was no good reason to do that.

He was indoctrinated fully by this point probably. TIM has knowledge about the Citadel/Catalyst because he had access to a lot of information being the leader of Cerberus. It is more than likely that something like this would happen. However, wouldn't the reapers just "know" that the humans knew? Why would TIM need to actively tell the reapers?

Reapers can influence your mind, but I don't think they can read it.

They can read your mind. The evidence is in the Retribution novel. The reapers could flip through Grayson's memories like a library and read his thoughts as they came to mind. 

[Lord Goose]

They can read your mind. The evidence is in the Retribution novel. The reapers could flip through Grayson's memories like a library and read his thoughts as they came to mind.

Grayson was practically a husk at that point. Reapers used him as marionette.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Lord Goose wrote...

They can read your mind. The evidence is in the Retribution novel. The reapers could flip through Grayson's memories like a library and read his thoughts as they came to mind.

Grayson was practically a husk at that point. Reapers used him as marionette.

Doesn't disprove the fact that reapers could have read enough of Shepard's thoughts to learn of a boy he saw get vaporized. 

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:23 .

[DJBare]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

[DJBare]

FellishBeast wrote...

Reapers can influence your mind, but I don't think they can read it.

Initially they cannot read thoughts, but the deeper the nanites embed the more they tap into thought processes and emotions, they can then turn these to their advantage.

[RavenEyry]

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

They were answering someone who said all the endings sacrifice some for others. Only destroy and possibly refuse fit that, unless you count Shepard.

[smokingotter1]

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

[Chriz Tah Fah]

smokingotter1 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

Lets assume that this is true and that it really is just an overlay. The right choice would be to get behind the Mako to hide from the laser. But at the rate Harbinger is firing, after that Mako tank is gone, Shepard would be vaporized by a second beam a fraction of a second later. The main goal would be to get to the beam making Synthesis not the most insane move? Speculation I guess. I do really like your overlay theory and it turns out great but the aftermath is a little iffy if you know what i mean.

[smokingotter1]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

Lets assume that this is true and that it really is just an overlay. The right choice would be to get behind the Mako to hide from the laser. But at the rate Harbinger is firing, after that Mako tank is gone, Shepard would be vaporized by a second beam a fraction of a second later. The main goal would be to get to the beam making Synthesis not the most insane move? Speculation I guess. I do really like your overlay theory and it turns out great but the aftermath is a little iffy if you know what i mean.

Yeah, the thing is I'm pretty sure now that although the reapers want Shepard indoctrinated the TIM-Anderson scene is their last attempt. The decision chamber is an effort to kill Shepard. Bioware deliberatly changed the scene where Harbinger blasts at Shepard, there is more emphasis on the direction IMO. He's shooting diagonally from the right. The only way to dodge that is to go right. If you go left or straight Shepard will be killed.

[Uncle Jo]

Lord Goose wrote...


If Shepard hasn't stopped Saren, everybody who was opposing the Reapers would have died. Saren is quite explicit about "everyonewill die, but me".

And, as I said, TIM does nothing to establish control over the Reapers. Shepard gathers war assets, Shepards builds the Crucible. TIM only tries to sabotage controlling device and for some reason discloses information about Catalyst to the enemy. He clearly cannot be trusted, no matter what he wants.

No. Saren wanted to save the organic races from a complete extinction when he discovered the true nature of Sovereign. He already lost hope. After indoctrination, he gave easily into the cr*p that Sovereign put in his mind (Your destruction is inevitable, because Reapers : submit).

And that's exactly what Shep's doing when s/he picks up green after hearing the cr*p the Brat put in her/his mind (Your destruction is inevitable, because Synthetics : synthetize).

TIM wanted, at first, to protect humanity and make it the leading race by giving humans a decisive advantage: the control of the Reapers. Why destroy something when you can control it and use it to your own benefit ? The pragmatical way.

The problem is that the Reapers aren't something that can be controlled. Every time in the three games, the control option not only was advocated by indoctrinated or insane person, but it always ended bad for the one(s) who tried.
Even if possible, they are so advanced, so powerful, that the balance of the Galaxy will always be broken as long as they're there. No matter who "controls" them. Through their very nature, they were, are and will always be a threat.

TIM was also more clever than you think. He was persuaded to be on the right path but knew that neither the Alliance, nor the Council, nor even Shep would ever agree with him. And time was running out.
So he let Shep fight on the front line and sowed the benefits. He had a goal which was to control the Reapers and didn't mind the allied forces and Reapers destroying, or at least weakening, each other, on one side, and consequently not paying attention to his own agenda, on the other. Both were his enemies anyway. So he tried to make the maximum profit out of a disadvantageous situation. Didn't work though.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[Humakt83]

“"Let none in my sight continue to live, lest their impurity displease me." The Word is clear on this, friends. Humans are the hands of the Reapers, here to commit the galaxy to ruin!”

How right he was.

[masster blaster]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

Lets assume that this is true and that it really is just an overlay. The right choice would be to get behind the Mako to hide from the laser. But at the rate Harbinger is firing, after that Mako tank is gone, Shepard would be vaporized by a second beam a fraction of a second later. The main goal would be to get to the beam making Synthesis not the most insane move? Speculation I guess. I do really like your overlay theory and it turns out great but the aftermath is a little iffy if you know what i mean.

Yeah, the thing is I'm pretty sure now that although the reapers want Shepard indoctrinated the TIM-Anderson scene is their last attempt. The decision chamber is an effort to kill Shepard. Bioware deliberatly changed the scene where Harbinger blasts at Shepard, there is more emphasis on the direction IMO. He's shooting diagonally from the right. The only way to dodge that is to go right. If you go left or straight Shepard will be killed.

Or just stand there and get vaporized.

But it also works with walking nightmer theory as well as. IT, and the literalist points of views.

[RavenEyry]

Trim that quote tree boy!

[Chriz Tah Fah]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

Lets assume that this is true and that it really is just an overlay. The right choice would be to get behind the Mako to hide from the laser. But at the rate Harbinger is firing, after that Mako tank is gone, Shepard would be vaporized by a second beam a fraction of a second later. The main goal would be to get to the beam making Synthesis not the most insane move? Speculation I guess. I do really like your overlay theory and it turns out great but the aftermath is a little iffy if you know what i mean.

Yeah, the thing is I'm pretty sure now that although the reapers want Shepard indoctrinated the TIM-Anderson scene is their last attempt. The decision chamber is an effort to kill Shepard. Bioware deliberatly changed the scene where Harbinger blasts at Shepard, there is more emphasis on the direction IMO. He's shooting diagonally from the right. The only way to dodge that is to go right. If you go left or straight Shepard will be killed.

The only problem I see with this is that Harbinger's beam is literally a foot away before you get the light fade transition. On top of this, Shepard jumps almost directly backwards as the beam almost hits her. Unless the hillucination starts at the beginning of the conduit rush, or right after the Normandy evac's Shepard would be hit by the laser.

[smokingotter1]

[quote]smokingotter1 wrote...

[quote]Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

[quote]smokingotter1 wrote...

[quote]DJBare wrote...

[quote]BansheeOwnage wrote...
*snip*




[/quote]

snip

[/quote]

snap

[/quote]

How I envision the post ending DLC, partly inspired by Star Wars A New Hope

Harbinger: "Serve us"
(Dream sequence,
Shepard chooses destroy.
Is behind Mako
Harbinger blasts Mako throwing Shepard back causing massive damge to his armor.
Breathe scene)
If EMS is high enough
Harbinger: "I have you now."
Joker: "Yeehaw!!"
(Normandy starts firing on Harbinger)
Harbinger: "Wha da fuq?"
(Shepard makes it into conduit, commence epic Citadel mission)

[ZerebusPrime]

I've considered "Overlay Theory" before.  I had not thought of it as dodging Harbinger's laser, though.  Instead it seemed to me that Shepard was still staggering towards the beam in his mind and would have to dream going up/into it god-only-knows-how-many-times before reality could set in.

In any event, Control and Synthesis both end with Shepard getting incinerated by energy.  So too would getting hit by Harbinger's blast.  Destroy as a narrow dodge and an explosion to the face makes perfect sense.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

It really does make sense and is quite possibly what is happening. To tie it back into the indoctrination theory, we stated before that refuse is Shepard "giving up" and therefore dying mentally. This could explain why Shepard isn't vaporized by energy in the refusal ending because Shepard is already dead before the impact. Bioware could have chose any other way for Shepard to die in the Synth/Control endings, why incinerated by energy?

[smokingotter1]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Well if you consider the choices, destroy is the only one that fits that bill.

Does it really?, I wonder, as I've said before, each of the options is what the different Shepards(players) WANT, very few pick reject, but is that not the point of indoctrintion, to show the victim what they WANT to see, in which case even destroy can be a deception, Bioware knows most will have opted for destroy, after all it's what all Shepard's set out to do, destroy the reapers, so basically the destroy option is the biggest honeypot trap, all three are traps in my opinion, but destroy now stands out as the biggest to me.

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

Lets assume that this is true and that it really is just an overlay. The right choice would be to get behind the Mako to hide from the laser. But at the rate Harbinger is firing, after that Mako tank is gone, Shepard would be vaporized by a second beam a fraction of a second later. The main goal would be to get to the beam making Synthesis not the most insane move? Speculation I guess. I do really like your overlay theory and it turns out great but the aftermath is a little iffy if you know what i mean.

Yeah, the thing is I'm pretty sure now that although the reapers want Shepard indoctrinated the TIM-Anderson scene is their last attempt. The decision chamber is an effort to kill Shepard. Bioware deliberatly changed the scene where Harbinger blasts at Shepard, there is more emphasis on the direction IMO. He's shooting diagonally from the right. The only way to dodge that is to go right. If you go left or straight Shepard will be killed.

The only problem I see with this is that Harbinger's beam is literally a foot away before you get the light fade transition. On top of this, Shepard jumps almost directly backwards as the beam almost hits her. Unless the hillucination starts at the beginning of the conduit rush, or right after the Normandy evac's Shepard would be hit by the laser.

Does anyone know how to do flycam with this scene? We need moar detail. Enhance!