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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#47326
Chriz Tah Fah

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Dwailing wrote...

Trollgunner wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa is the woman you want to compliment for that one.  Also, big props for this Megumi.  It's definitely interesting just how well the two scenes line up.


Okay, I give my thanks to MegumiAzusa. Oh, and Dwailing, I think it's time to revive this thread (considering the Normandy Pickup scene). Check it, it's fun. Time out for Harby


Wow, that seems almost exactly like what happened.  It all makes sense now!


It wasn't even as if Bioware disreguarded Harbinger during this scene. Throughout the conversation Shepard would look back at Harbinger and give dirty looks. Shepard almost seemed like she was thinking/asking herself "why isn't he doing anything?"

Edit: During my walkthrough I 99.99% of the time NEVER talked through cutscenes. But during the Normandy evac scene I talked during a cutscene for the first time and said "why didn't Harbinger shoot...the Normandy." It wasn't as if I had to go through it multiple times, watch that part again and again. It was just prominant the first time I went through it. No analysis needed it just plain didn't make sense off the bat.

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:16 .


#47327
ThisOneIsPunny

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Dwailing wrote...

They had three frakking monthes to develop the EC, I HIGHLY doubt that there would be an oversight like that (It would be greatly appreciated if anyone could confirm this.).  Also, my personal opinion on why Harby didn't blast the Normandy is that it wanted leverage so that Shepard wouldn't choose Destroy.  If it had destroyed the Normandy, and if Shepard had let the Geth die, then Shep wouldn't have any reason NOT to choose Destroy.  Also, I agree that it's weird that Shep doesn't get extra support from the Normandy. 


Teleporting squadmates, am i right? You don't see the rest of your group in the the kodiak with you and your ground team, you don't see them on other kodiaks but the scenes of the ground forces arriving makes sure to show you other alliance teams etc? Then, they're suddenly at the FOB for convenient goodbyes and a final Shepard Speech before supposedly hopping on a kodiak back to the Normandy offscreen that somehow doesn't get taken out by wormnecks or destroyers. Also, remember what the Normandy was doing at the time?

#47328
GreenFlag

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Dwailing wrote...

GreenFlag wrote...

Ok, again Mako :)


Posted Image
Posted Image



Wait, is that the Mako from the breathe scene? :blink:  Now THAT is interesting.  BioWare must have added that for a reason. ;)


yop, it's interesting... but can be wrong :mellow:

#47329
Trollgunner

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Chriz Tah Fah wrote...


It wasn't even as if Bioware disreguarded Harbinger during this scene. Throughout the conversation Shepard would look back at Harbinger and give dirty looks. Shepard almost seemed like she was thinking/asking herself "why isn't he doing anything?"




The weirdest scene out there for me in EC.....um, after synthesys ending ofc.  

#47330
Arian Dynas

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[quote]Edorian27 wrote...

Thank you & UltimateTobi for your efforts :)


1) It doesn't feel like a dream. Shep is in that slow-mo-dreamlike situation where he can barely set one foot before another. I belive the thought of Hackett would not cross his mind, as he is too caught in the scene.
Also, the design of the Hackett-Scene resembles the reality look, not the dream state look.

Sure it is open to interpreation, but if I had to guess, it's a reality scene.

2) But lies/bull**** where one reason as how Shepard could discover something is wrong with the whole situation. Now, as it makes more sense in its own weird logic, this isn't the case.

3) Yeah, basically fanservice is the way to explain the EC. However, as to how BW intended the endings to be, I'm not sure anymore[/quote]

Bioware has EXPLICITLY STATED that the EC was something they never planned to make.

They made the EC as fanservice. That's it.

1). Looks just as dreamy and weird as it was before. In a literal interpretation, there is no reason whatsoever for that scene to be even the slightest bit weird.

2). If you had been listening you actually not only can see he contradicts himself EVEN MORE, but you can also see parts that are just plain creepy.

They wanted to promote Synthesis so the Guardian slaughtered his own creators? Come on.
.
3). Bioware intended for what we got on the disc to be the endings. They said they would not change the character, meaning or message of the endings, so why then do such radical changes? Because their consquences don't matter.

[quote]

Think about it. The more information you give, the more the other one trusts you. BW served both, literalists and theorists. We got more "closure" from the literal point of view. BUT, that plays in our favor, the Catalyst is more obviously grasping at Shep's faith/believe. The Catalyst also talks more positively about Control, and even more about Synthesis. Destroy is still the worst choice in Catalyst's POV.

[/quote]


You have a point here. It makes sense for the catalyst to make Shep belive in the alternatives he offers. Still, the more consistent his logic gets, the less likely it is that BW intended IT.
At least the EC gives us an alternative as to what the Starchild is other than an Indoctrination attempt. Would BW invent and present this alternative if IT was intended?
[/quote]

Yes. They are trying to keep both camps happy. You'll notice MOST (I did not say all so don't jump on me for that) of the people who support a literal ending are new players who came in with ME3. These are the people who only stuck around for the MP and the EC, for the most part, it's unlikely they will buy any DLC, they got their saccharine happy ending, they got what they wanted out of it and for them Mass Effect is a closed book. The hardcore fans, for whom this theory occured, are the people who buy every novel and DLC. Future DLC is going to have us in mind.

[quote] 
Thank you! Anyway, I'm thinking of reinstalling the game without EC, where IT works perfectly and make it my ending... :innocent:

[/quote]

#47331
Chriz Tah Fah

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I think for low EMS saves where you can only pick destroy. Harbinger should definitely shoot down the Normandy. Show those people what happens when they rush through a game!

#47332
Arian Dynas

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Oh and to cap everything off, Bioware has EXPLICITLY told us that there are aspects of the game with non-literal interpretations.

We are just as valid an interpretation now as we were before.

#47333
Trollgunner

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Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

I think for low EMS saves where you can only pick destroy. Harbinger should definitely shoot down the Normandy. Show those people what happens when they rush through a game!

And after getting shot at, Joker goes for a head-on. And crashes into Harby! Then Shepard goes mentally insane.

#47334
v0rt3x22

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Oh hey - the thread is not stickied anymore - what did I miss?

#47335
UltimateTobi

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Now this video by prettz is something awesome:

The detailed analysis of the gun change is intriguing. I find it's definitely intended. I recommend to fully watch that video, if you didn't have watched it yet.

#47336
MaximizedAction

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

Oh hey - the thread is not stickied anymore - what did I miss?


Oh I missed that one...hm...still unclear whether that was a mistake mistake or intended mistake...it's all so much like the game itself. :lol:

#47337
DTKT

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Monthly check-up in this thread.

Still going strong? Yep.

How disturbing.

#47338
Chriz Tah Fah

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The sticky is Bioware's show of power. They have the power to give AND the power to take!

#47339
UltimateTobi

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DTKT wrote...

Monthly check-up in this thread.

Still going strong? Yep.

How disturbing.

You're welcome. ;)

#47340
UltimateTobi

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MaximizedAction wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Oh hey - the thread is not stickied anymore - what did I miss?


Oh I missed that one...hm...still unclear whether that was a mistake mistake or intended mistake...it's all so much like the game itself. :lol:

They're playing the mind game in- and out-game. :P Let's see who's winning, eh.

#47341
Trollgunner

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MaximizedAction wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Oh hey - the thread is not stickied anymore - what did I miss?


Oh I missed that one...hm...still unclear whether that was a mistake mistake or intended mistake...it's all so much like the game itself. :lol:

Well, that's one bad-ass Javik avatar.... Btw, do you think Javik could runaway when Shepard orders him to?

#47342
estebanus

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Wow, I just managed to convince a controller why refuse is a good option. That's something new.

#47343
Arian Dynas

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byne wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Yep, keep cool for now guys, anything could be the reason.


For now let's stick to this:

:police:


:police:


You guys have sunglasses?! STICKIED!


I wear sunglasses at night.

Well, when the light is too bright for my eyes is when I wear them really.B)

#47344
estebanus

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Arian Dynas wrote...

byne wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Yep, keep cool for now guys, anything could be the reason.


For now let's stick to this:

:police:


:police:


You guys have sunglasses?! STICKIED!


I wear sunglasses at night.

Well, when the light is too bright for my eyes is when I wear them really.B)

Why not close the shades? 

Also, I hate sunglasses.

#47345
smokingotter1

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Ok now I have moar thoughts. I think the ending of ME3 BW played fast and loose with time. My thoughts is the breathe scene happens before we see the crucible fire which means if I'm right there is a lot missing inbetween the crucible firing and Shepard breathing.

BW is not going to change the endings, but they will change what is between those two time periods with DLC.

1. Breath scene
2. ?????????? (this is the details that Star Gazer was talking about, how did Shepard activate the crucible?)
3. Crucible firing
4. Thanks from Bioware



If I'm right we'll be seeing some MP Citadel DLC coming in the next few months followed by battle for the citadel DLC.

This is 100 speculation, but my otter senses are tingling.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:34 .


#47346
Dwailing

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Arian Dynas wrote...

I wear sunglasses at night.


Your vision is augmented. :mellow:

#47347
Simon_Says

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

The Reapers are not fully Synthetic, they are a hybrid of Organic and Synthetic material and for all we know taht extends down to their very core. That alone is an indication that comparing Geth to Reapers is not accurate.

Actually, what is the fundamental difference between an organic and a synthetic intelligence anyway? Why must they be in conflict? Because as far as I can tell, the series has never actually answered that question, just danced around it. It handed out the labels without ever providing concise definitions. The distinction in hardware is insufficient. For instance, consider an artificial intelligence based off of an organic template. Will that mind think like an organic or like a synthetic? What exactly is Christopher Huerta? Or possibly even Shepard? Therefore the crux of the difference can't be the hardware the intelligence runs on, but the different models of the intelligences themselves.

The obvious place to start would be origin. Organics weren't created. Organic models of intelligence are the lucky product of millions of generations of natural selection. Synthetics intelligences on the other hand are fashioned from the ground up due to the work of other intelligences. The best suggestion I can come up for what this means doesn't really draw upon any lore from the series itself, just a personal hypothesis.

The difference between the human brain and a desktop computer is that the latter is a truth engine, while the former is a survival engine. Your brain is there to keep you alive, not to be correct all the time, and as such efficiency and speed take precedence over reliability or objectivity, whereas computers are the opposite. This is why your visual cortex can be confused by optical illusions, why you can be swayed by ethos and pathos in addition to logos, and how magicians can still pull off sleights of hand even when you're actively trying to outsmart the magician. Like it or not your brain, marvelous piece of work that it is, is a glitchy, exploitable mess that makes Windows ME look like genius programming. This is because natural selection selects for the most efficient solutions available to adapting conditions, not the most ideal possible. This is why computers are so useful for us. Limited as they are, they can do certain jobs more reliably than we ever could. A human could theoretically do the same work, but they'd do it much slower and be far and beyond more prone to error.

So a synthetic intelligence, if it was developed from truth-engine principles, would be free from the pains of the ubiquitous 'human error'. Except this doesn't mean it's objectively better. Again, natural selection selected fast-and-loose intelligence over methodical-and-reliable in our own evolution. The simple fact is that when it comes to the two primary behaviors of intelligence, decision making and learning, being fast and mostly accurate will statistically prove more successful than always accurate but slow. A mind running on guidelines can decide, learn, and adapt faster than one based on rigid principles.

I think this is actually sorta reflected in ME lore. Consider the geth station in ME2. Legion, who's thought processes ran much faster than any human's, was still paralyzed by indecision trying to reach a consensus over what to do with the heretics whereas we and our Shepards could come to a conclusion mere minutes after being presented the problem. I doubt any of you actually took the time to observe, interpret, and forecast every variable factoring in to that decision. No, you used guidelines you heuristically developed, flawed or incomplete though they may be. In the grand scheme of things, it's okay to be wrong some of the time. Hell, EDI even mentioned that the possibility of being wrong can introduce an unforecastable element of chaos which can be strategically advantageous.

Neither solution is truly ideal then as a possible model for intelligence. The ideal one would, you guessed it, be something with the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. Infallible yet speedy. What this could be exactly, I don't know. But the thought has occurred to me that the reapers are an attempt to closely approximate this goal. I forget the exact name of the theory in question but it's an established theory that a group of well-informed minds will statistically prove more correct in decision making or data analysis than they could individually, since each individual can communicate and correct the mistakes of others. So the reapers emulate several billion organic-derived thought models working in tandem, with an absolutely massive and advanced technological infrastructure to let them operate fast and reliable enough.

So this may be the reason the reapers always held themselves to be so mighty, infallible, inevitable and all that. Yet, we know that the reapers are certifiably evil and insane. How to reconcile this? Well, remember that if it's in possession of incorrect or incomplete data, even the perfect mind will draw incorrect conclusions. If it ever loses sight of its own failings, however small or insignificant they are at first, they can grow to prove that mind's undoing. And an a**hole is an a**hole, intelligence does not correlate with benevolence. Not to mention that the idea of getting several minds to work together to think better than they could individually relies on those minds being sufficiently diverse. If they share common problems among them, if they are insufficiently well-informed, or if they are standardized on fundamental levels, the strategy would fall apart completely.

I’ve no idea why organic and synthetics should inevitably come into conflict however. They’re alien to each other, yes. They think differently and desire different things, yes. If human history is anything to go by, conflict will arise at some point for these reasons but total wipeout of one or both sides is not guaranteed. Hell it’s not even likely. It seems to me more likely that such different sides would lay down arms and cooperate if only to study each other in order to better understand and improve themselves. It’s not as diversity hasn’t actually benefitted the world in the long run. The Catalyst says the synthetic apocalypse threatens the galaxy and yet there’s no reason to actually believe this is the case. Bah.

Anyway this is just me throwing speculation at the wall to find out what sticks. What do you guys think about this?

#47348
Arian Dynas

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

You dont even have to poke holes in that by pointing out all the contradictions, such as killing the Proto-Reaper. The mere concept that a Reaper bears any semblance to the civilization that bore it is not even believable. 

Do people really think that the Human Reaper, or any of the Reapers for that matter, would want to participate in the "cycle" just because they've been successfully reaped? 

"Whatever race you came from - they're dead now. And now they can rest in peace."
And that was the paragon option...


Exactly. Believing in the literal interpretation of the Synth/Control endings is essentially believing that Shep has simply been misguided throughout the entire trilogy up until the final 10 minutes. You'd have to be pretty shallow to think that doesnt just trivialize the entire story. 

Glad you brought this up. Basically if the literal endings are true (regardless of breaking themes and lore) it means Shepard and all of Shepard's friends and allies are just stubborn idiots. They should have listened to the antagonists (Saren, TIM, Reapers) the whole time. Instead they're just soldiers only able to look at the world down the barrel of a gun. That would not only make no sense at all from a writing perspective, but it would be totally, totally lame.Posted Image


Which is why I do not and CANNOT subscribe to the idea that Bioware really inteneded this.

And I can't subscribe to the idea that they are bad writers, or to the idea that the writing team went on an ego trip and wrote something other than what the intended ending was or just completely forgot all about Me1 &ME2, seeing as unlike similar situations with things like Ultima 9, THIS WAS THE SAME WRITING TEAM AS BEFORE. It just had a few new members this time, by Bioware's own admission they all worked together and peer reveiwed themselves.

#47349
masster blaster

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[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...

[quote]smokingotter1 wrote...

[quote]Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

[quote]smokingotter1 wrote...

[quote]Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

I agree. I believe that the decision chamber is the overlay of the conduit run. Same place but happening in slow motion.

Destroy has Shepard moving towards Harbinger to be killed, Harbinger flubs it, shoots the MAKO as Shepard shoots the "tube." Explosion-Shepard wakes up

Refuse has Shepard standing out in the open picking his nose as Harbinger beams moves in for the kill.

Basically the decision chamber is dream/reality in conflict, the minute Shepard starts to shoot at the tube the sound of his gun changes to predator, and the gun image changes a couple of seconds later.

Whats really happening in the decision chamber:

Posted Image


[/quote]

Lets assume that this is true and that it really is just an overlay. The right choice would be to get behind the Mako to hide from the laser. But at the rate Harbinger is firing, after that Mako tank is gone, Shepard would be vaporized by a second beam a fraction of a second later. The main goal would be to get to the beam making Synthesis not the most insane move? Speculation I guess. I do really like your overlay theory and it turns out great but the aftermath is a little iffy if you know what i mean.

[/quote]

Yeah, the thing is I'm pretty sure now that although the reapers want Shepard indoctrinated the TIM-Anderson scene is their last attempt. The decision chamber is an effort to kill Shepard. Bioware deliberatly changed the scene where Harbinger blasts at Shepard, there is more emphasis on the direction IMO. He's shooting diagonally from the right. The only way to dodge that is to go right. If you go left or straight Shepard will be killed.

[/quote]

The only problem I see with this is that Harbinger's beam is literally a foot away before you get the light fade transition. On top of this, Shepard jumps almost directly backwards as the beam almost hits her. Unless the hillucination starts at the beginning of the conduit rush, or right after the Normandy evac's Shepard would be hit by the laser.

[/quote]

Does anyone know how to do flycam with this scene? We need moar detail. Enhance![/quote]
btw overlaying gives this:
Posted Image
look how nicely the Makos on the left and right side line up with the edge of the path.[/quote]


Guys remember when Shepard falls on all fours the first time. When
Shepard wakes up from Harbys beam. Well look at the part when Shepard is
with the Catalyst. Shepard is on all fours like the first time Shepard fallen to the ground.

Then the Catalyst says wake up.

Now
where considered the fact, that the Indoctrination attempt was
in fact when Shepard get's up from Harbys beam, but we never guessed that it
could have happened right when Shepard falls to the ground on all
fours.

And if this theory is correct about Shepard walking around on Earth, then here is the missing link we did not see could happen.

Modifié par masster blaster, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:49 .


#47350
Arian Dynas

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estebanus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

byne wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Yep, keep cool for now guys, anything could be the reason.


For now let's stick to this:

:police:


:police:


You guys have sunglasses?! STICKIED!


I wear sunglasses at night.

Well, when the light is too bright for my eyes is when I wear them really.B)

Why not close the shades? 

Also, I hate sunglasses.


Any kind of light can be too bright for me. My eyes are photophobic.