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[memorysquid]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

I refuse to accept that the ending was so bad it justifies approaching 2000 pages of posts on a theory that had little supporting evidence to begin with and was completely destroyed by the EC. Let's exercise a little self-control, people.

Go to page 1, read the evidence. If it has little supporting evidence it shouldn't take too long huh?

It shouldn't take too long, you're right.  It does because people talk a lot.  Even in the first post-EC IT support video linked there, the commentator immediately grants that IT is not the route BW went, but maybe IT can be salvaged as an interpretation.  The point is that literally anything can be salvaged if you are willing to take a loose enough interpretation.  At some point, certainly the point after which the writer says you are all wrong, your interpretation becomes simple invention.

[BleedingUranium]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I'm going to add my little bit of speculation regarding the Conduit/Decision Chamber overlay from yesterday.  This fits with Waking Nightmare Theory. (Heads up, wall of text incoming.)  My wonder now is, given how well the two match up, maybe Shepard had STARTED breaking free from the indoctrination attempt after the Anderson/TIM scene, and was actually awake but in what is a more literal hallucination (I.E. He's seeing things that aren't there or he's seeing things that are there but he's just not seeing them as they really are.).  Now, if so, then this would open some new possibilities.  

That would make the Synthesis beam the "Conduit" beam.  Which means that Shepard would be thrown into the Citadel (The force of the impact from being sent up there being enough to wake him up.), indoctinated (Because he chose Synthesis.), and he would open the arms and dock the Crucible (My personal beliefs are that the Crucible is some kind of Reaper trap and they needed all the fleets in one place to use it to its fullest potential.  That would explain why that brought the Citadel to Earth.), securing Reaper victory.  

In Control, Shepard might be walking over to some kind of electrical panel on the side of the Conduit, and if he grabs it, he'll be fried (And indoctrinated for choosing Control.).  At this point, he'd snap out of the hallucination, and he'd be indoctrinated (And possibly in very bad condition.).  Then, even though he'd be too badly wounded to go to the Citadel (Due to being fried by large amounts of electricity.), he could be evac'ed to receive medical attention, and he could be used as a sleeper agent.

In Destroy, Shepard would walk over to some kind of conduit or explosive of some sort, and he would shoot it, presumably, with a Predator.  The pain from the explosion combined with his resistance of the indoc attempt would snap him out of it, but he would be buried under rubble and pretty badly wounded, and he would have to be found by someone else.  This could be why the kid presents the choice of Destroy.  Even if Shepard's will is too powerful to succumb to indoctrination (This is Destroy after all, it's definitely a way to break free from indoctrination.), he can still hurt Shepard when he breaks free. 

Finally, Rejection.  In Rejection, Shepard realizes, at least subconsciously, that something is wrong.  So, he refuses to take any of the choices.  This has two consequences.  On a mental level, Shepard has broken free from indoctrination by refusing to take any of the choices presented by Star-Brat.  However, Shepard has NOT received any kind of jolt to snap him completely out of the hallucination.  So, now, Shepard needs something to snap him out of it.  This could be his LI, Anderson (In the event that he doesn't have a LI.), or someone or something completely different. 

Now, I know this is a wild hypothesis, and I acknowledge that it might not be the most likely, but I think that something like this would work pretty well.  Also, I give due credit to Arian Dynas for the idea about the "Control" panel  being some kind of electric thing (It was in his ending script.).

No, it's good. But what would Shep do in Synthesis once he opened the arms? If the Crucible is a trap then this is even worse than being a sleeper agent in control, since this means a sudden execution of the Reapers' plans.

There might be an option to have Shepard break free long enough to destroy the Crucible once he learned its true purpose.  However, he would have to sacrifice himself in the process.

Or maybe TIM should learn the true purpose of the Crucible, and sacrifice himself to destroy it, leaving Shepard free to take down Harbinger!

Now that would be awesome. I've always wanted TIM to realize his mistakes and "redeem" himself by sacrificing himself to do something beneficial. Not just kill himself like Saren. Something important. It should have many prerequisites though, like Geth/Quarian peace.

He's well set up for it too, Saren was a douche and indoctrinated into thinking he should help the Reapers. TIM, on the other hand, while not Paragon by any means, is no where close to Saren's level of doucheness, and even though he's indoctrinated, he's not helping the Reapers, he even thinks he's opposing them. Since you can't actually control Reapers, he's on a fool's errand, wasting time, resources, and personel that otherwise could have helped fight the Reapers, as well as disrupting efforts to get the galaxy together to fight, and similar. He's helping the Reapers without wanting to or knowing it. That kind of character almost always gets a redeeming action in fiction, and I think he should too. Sacrificing himself to do something useful, like destroy of sabotage the Crucible (assuming it's a trap) would be a very good end for him.

[BansheeOwnage]

A little off topic but if anyone cares it looks like the Argus, Valkyrie, and Raider are going to be making their way into MP soon. (Hopefully tomorrow with the DLC). I find it likely that if these are not patched in like the Indra was, that they will be released as a paid weapon pack that makes them available for SP and MP for all platforms (like the ME2 weapon DLCs). All that's missing is the Chakram launcher, which will most likely be future paid DLC along with the Collector AR.
Note this is on 360, and the Raider is currently a PC exclusive.


Edit: Further evidence for this is the previously SP-only Particle Rifle.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:41 .

[Andromidius]

memorysquid wrote...

It shouldn't take too long, you're right.  It does because people talk a lot.  Even in the first post-EC IT support video linked there, the commentator immediately grants that IT is not the route BW went, but maybe IT can be salvaged as an interpretation.  The point is that literally anything can be salvaged if you are willing to take a loose enough interpretation.  At some point, certainly the point after which the writer says you are all wrong, your interpretation becomes simple invention.

Just because one person who's not related to Bioware says something, you instantly beleive them?

Oh okay then.  Explains a lot.

1/ Bioware wanted speculations.  We are doing that.
2/ Bioware planted clues and inconsistancies throughout the entire story - that lead to nothing.  Hense, the theory.
3/ Bioware have refused point blank to confirm or deny IT.
4/ Bioware have stated point blank that there is no 'official canon'.
5/ Bioware have stated point blank that there are aspects to the story that 'shouldn't be taken literally'.

Hmmm.  You're right, that one guy knows more about what Bioware intended then Bioware did.

[memorysquid]

BleedingUranium wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

I refuse to accept that the ending was so bad it justifies approaching 2000 pages of posts on a theory that had little supporting evidence to begin with and was completely destroyed by the EC. Let's exercise a little self-control, people.

Little evidence? Ask us a question about the ending and see if we can't answer it with the indoctrination theory. Granted, we can't answer everything, but we can answer a lot.

I just wanted to encode most of the endings in a cryptic way and see if you conspiracy minded types would catch it.  This was pure trollery.

Seriously, the EC pretty much puts a stake through the heart here.  Literary theories are always on shaky ground when a writer can simply turn around and say, nope, that's not what I meant.

Sure, execpt for two small points:

-EC did not remove a single piece of IT evidence (other than adding the pickup scene, which adds more than before )

-Bioware stated, in no uncertain terms, that EC is not meant to disprove IT.

Right, because why ****** off the diehard IT fans who rejected the ending so violently they substituted their own headcanon for what they literally saw?  Who are you going to believe, baby, IT or your lying eyes?  They didn't want to disprove anyone's theory; they wanted to create something vague enough they could please everyone with one product, a marketer's dream. 

[Dwailing]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

A little off topic but if anyone cares it looks like the Argus, Valkyrie, and Raider are going to be making their way into MP soon. (Hopefully tomorrow with the DLC). I find it likely that if these are not patched in like the Indra was, that they will be released as a paid weapon pack that makes them available for SP and MP for all platforms (like the ME2 weapon DLCs). All that's missing is the Chakram launcher, which will most likely be future paid DLC along with the Collector AR.
Note this is on 360, and the Raider is currently a PC exclusive.

Oh, the Raider.  I already own the Argus and the Valkyrie, but since I'm such a completionist, I'm going to buy the pack for the Raider.

[BansheeOwnage]

Iconoclaste wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

In the literal ending, there is a "control room" that no one has been to before. I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but I find the existance of that room implausible. Isn't it on the "bottom" of the citadel tower? Has no one looked there before, you know, on space tours, or routine maintenance?

This can be explained by "the changing configuration of the area" not allowing anyone close to it, and the Keepers undoing any modification done to the Citadel that doesn't fit their "agenda". The main problem with this room is that it has very large windows, so it's virtually impossible this room went undetected for thousands of years from an outside wanderer. Speculation for everyone.

Definitely. I don't get the people who don't want ITers to speculate, seeing as how that's obviously what BW wanted. (Recent evidence being that they stickied this thread.)

[Andromidius]

Iconoclaste wrote...

This can be explained by "the changing configuration of the area" not allowing anyone close to it, and the Keepers undoing any modification done to the Citadel that doesn't fit their "agenda". The main problem with this room is that it has very large windows, so it's virtually impossible this room went undetected for thousands of years from an outside wanderer. Speculation for everyone.

Exactly.  Not to mention we see the 'walls shifting' and it seems little more then...a door opening.  So unless its a graphical limitation, I'm doubtful that we're supposed to beleive the whole machine was created rapidly in a similar way to how Borg machines spread in Star Trek.  aka Space Magic replication.

There's just no pretext for it.  Hense it feels like an asspull, and highly surreal.

[BansheeOwnage]

Dwailing wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

A little off topic but if anyone cares it looks like the Argus, Valkyrie, and Raider are going to be making their way into MP soon. (Hopefully tomorrow with the DLC). I find it likely that if these are not patched in like the Indra was, that they will be released as a paid weapon pack that makes them available for SP and MP for all platforms (like the ME2 weapon DLCs). All that's missing is the Chakram launcher, which will most likely be future paid DLC along with the Collector AR.
Note this is on 360, and the Raider is currently a PC exclusive.

Oh, the Raider.  I already own the Argus and the Valkyrie, but since I'm such a completionist, I'm going to buy the pack for the Raider.

Even if you own the Argus and Valkyrie (I do too) you would get them in MP!

Edit: I am also a completionist, and I would bet that many ITers are. Something to think about...

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:44 .

[Andromidius]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Definitely. I don't get the people who don't want ITers to speculate, seeing as how that's obviously what BW wanted. (Recent evidence being that they stickied this thread.)

Admittedly, by a Moderator and not a Bioware Dev.  And by accident, it seems.

[lex0r11]

For the love of Biotic God! Please snip those pyramids!

[memorysquid]

Andromidius wrote...

Just because one person who's not related to Bioware says something, you instantly beleive them?

Oh okay then.  Explains a lot.

1/ Bioware wanted speculations.  We are doing that.
2/ Bioware planted clues and inconsistancies throughout the entire story - that lead to nothing.  Hense, the theory.
3/ Bioware have refused point blank to confirm or deny IT.
4/ Bioware have stated point blank that there is no 'official canon'.
5/ Bioware have stated point blank that there are aspects to the story that 'shouldn't be taken literally'.

Hmmm.  You're right, that one guy knows more about what Bioware intended then Bioware did.

No, but I do point out when even the pro-IT propaganda linked to in a pro-IT thread grants that BW didn't literally intend IT.

1) Sure.
2) Inconsistent writing doesn't entail intention.  Read/listen to the interviews.  It denotes the chaos of different writing teams spanning years.
3) Don't want to ****** off the fanbase.  No value whatsoever to doing so.
4) So?  And whatever they might've said there is some official canon as if you play each game in the series, some events have taken place even if you import no saves.
5) Like Shepard's dream sequences?  Or his waking synth hallucination in Overlord?  I don't know what you think this proves.

[BansheeOwnage]

Andromidius wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Definitely. I don't get the people who don't want ITers to speculate, seeing as how that's obviously what BW wanted. (Recent evidence being that they stickied this thread.)

Admittedly, by a Moderator and not a Bioware Dev.  And by accident, it seems.

Well that would be a funny weird mistake, but it doesn't really matter to what I said.

[Iconoclaste]

Andromidius wrote...

Exactly.  Not to mention we see the 'walls shifting' and it seems little more then...a door opening.  So unless its a graphical limitation, I'm doubtful that we're supposed to beleive the whole machine was created rapidly in a similar way to how Borg machines spread in Star Trek.  aka Space Magic replication.

There's just no pretext for it.  Hense it feels like an asspull, and highly surreal.

And even if it is "accepted" that the walls can indeed move around, the ceiling has no opening where Shepard is going through. There is this "fade to white" very bright, very obvious,  and after Shepard is in another place. This is a very difficult event to go around without suspecting something is going on. It's a big leap of faith to suppose Shepard was "teleported", the elevator is of no use in that case. Is is not even aligned with the small round "hole" in the middle of the ceiling, and where Shepard wakes up, nothing is seen related to a way to come up to this area.

[MegumiAzusa]

Why there is no wheels in the shep alive scene.
So I took a bit to look up the scene again and I came to the conclusion there just is no wheel and a single screenshot is bad for reference.
We all know:


Now we can make out a small part of the mesh if the let the movie run, instead of a single picture (movement helps immensely in detecting contours)

You can already see it's much too long and a single edge, nothing like a round wheel.
This can be strengthened by letting the movie run again a little and looking as these:

unedited

unedited

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:48 .

[memorysquid]

Flog61 wrote...

Guys please stop feeding the troll. just ignore memorysquid, if he cares this much then he can go make an thread of his own disproving IT

Even after I stated I was a troll.  Fun!

Still, is the point of this tread to simply chew over how IT must be true?  No dissension for you! 

In fact, threads disproving IT, back when the mods cared, were immediately shut down and referred to the stickied version.  So you are simply trying to still the voice of dissent.  Not a great way to deal with people who disagree, just saying ...

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

It shouldn't take too long, you're right.  It does because people talk a lot.  Even in the first post-EC IT support video linked there, the commentator immediately grants that IT is not the route BW went, but maybe IT can be salvaged as an interpretation.  The point is that literally anything can be salvaged if you are willing to take a loose enough interpretation.  At some point, certainly the point after which the writer says you are all wrong, your interpretation becomes simple invention.

Just because one person who's not related to Bioware says something, you instantly beleive them?

Oh okay then.  Explains a lot.

1/ Bioware wanted speculations.  We are doing that.
2/ Bioware planted clues and inconsistancies throughout the entire story - that lead to nothing.  Hense, the theory.
3/ Bioware have refused point blank to confirm or deny IT.
4/ Bioware have stated point blank that there is no 'official canon'.
5/ Bioware have stated point blank that there are aspects to the story that 'shouldn't be taken literally'.

Hmmm.  You're right, that one guy knows more about what Bioware intended then Bioware did.

This could equally apply to my personal theory that all ME games are dreams

[SubAstris]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Why there is no wheels in the shep alive scene.
So I took a bit to look up the scene again and I came to the conclusion there just is no wheel and a single screenshot is bad for reference.
We all know:


Now we can make out a small part of the mesh if the let the movie run, instead of a single picture (movement helps immensely in detecting contours)

You can already see it's much too long and a single edge, nothing like a round wheel.
This can be strengthened by letting the movie run again a little and looking as these:

unedited

unedited

Good work, although in fairness that was obvious by, well, just looking at the goddam screenshot

[smokingotter1]

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

It shouldn't take too long, you're right.  It does because people talk a lot.  Even in the first post-EC IT support video linked there, the commentator immediately grants that IT is not the route BW went, but maybe IT can be salvaged as an interpretation.  The point is that literally anything can be salvaged if you are willing to take a loose enough interpretation.  At some point, certainly the point after which the writer says you are all wrong, your interpretation becomes simple invention.

Just because one person who's not related to Bioware says something, you instantly beleive them?

Oh okay then.  Explains a lot.

1/ Bioware wanted speculations.  We are doing that.
2/ Bioware planted clues and inconsistancies throughout the entire story - that lead to nothing.  Hense, the theory.
3/ Bioware have refused point blank to confirm or deny IT.
4/ Bioware have stated point blank that there is no 'official canon'.
5/ Bioware have stated point blank that there are aspects to the story that 'shouldn't be taken literally'.

Hmmm.  You're right, that one guy knows more about what Bioware intended then Bioware did.

This could equally apply to my personal theory that all ME games are dreams

You could call that the "St. Elsewhere Theory"

[Andromidius]

memorysquid wrote...

No, but I do point out when even the pro-IT propaganda linked to in a pro-IT thread grants that BW didn't literally intend IT.

1) Sure.
2)
Inconsistent writing doesn't entail intention.  Read/listen to the
interviews.  It denotes the chaos of different writing teams spanning
years.
3) Don't want to ****** off the fanbase.  No value whatsoever to doing so.
4)
So?  And whatever they might've said there is some official canon as if
you play each game in the series, some events have taken place even if
you import no saves.
5) Like Shepard's dream sequences?  Or his waking synth hallucination in Overlord?  I don't know what you think this proves.

Again, do you know more about Bioware's intentions?  Please share where you got this information from!

2/
So you're saying Bioware fudged the writing at the last minute, during
the most important section of the story, after writing a really good 95%
of the rest of the story?  Sounds plausible.
3/ The fanbase is already pissed off.  They had nothing to lose.
4/ I guess 'no canon' goes straight over your head.
5/ Yes, because game companies and writers in general love putting in dream sequeuences that have no relivence to the actual story.  And we as consumers need to be told that a dream is a dream.  Sounds legit.

[BleedingUranium]

Dwailing wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

A little off topic but if anyone cares it looks like the Argus, Valkyrie, and Raider are going to be making their way into MP soon. (Hopefully tomorrow with the DLC). I find it likely that if these are not patched in like the Indra was, that they will be released as a paid weapon pack that makes them available for SP and MP for all platforms (like the ME2 weapon DLCs). All that's missing is the Chakram launcher, which will most likely be future paid DLC along with the Collector AR.
Note this is on 360, and the Raider is currently a PC exclusive.

Oh, the Raider.  I already own the Argus and the Valkyrie, but since I'm such a completionist, I'm going to buy the pack for the Raider.

As would I, but remember, none of them are in MP yet, so even the PC people with all three in SP would have reason to buy it. Nothing confirmed, but that's the theory Banshee and I came up with. Valkyrie/Argus/Raider pack, and also a Reckoner/Chakram pack later. Just speculation

[Iconoclaste]

memorysquid wrote...

Flog61 wrote...

Guys please stop feeding the troll. just ignore memorysquid, if he cares this much then he can go make an thread of his own disproving IT

Even after I stated I was a troll.  Fun!

Still, is the point of this tread to simply chew over how IT must be true?  No dissension for you! 

In fact, threads disproving IT, back when the mods cared, were immediately shut down and referred to the stickied version.  So you are simply trying to still the voice of dissent.  Not a great way to deal with people who disagree, just saying ...

In fact, disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is too easy. Instead, and I agree with that, people here wish to discuss the validity of elements of their theory, there's nothing wrong with that. I give you that there is a lot of repeating going on, lots of off-topic debates and unrelated pictures, but for a very good part some here are trying to make some sense of the endings, because genuine questions can arise from the face value of the end sequences. Some "IT evidence" look very far-fetched, but the bulk of motivation comes from very annoying "mistakes" or "overlookings" by the designers, like the small control room we were just discussing about. Do you have an explanation about this room, just as an example?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:55 .

[Dwailing]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

A little off topic but if anyone cares it looks like the Argus, Valkyrie, and Raider are going to be making their way into MP soon. (Hopefully tomorrow with the DLC). I find it likely that if these are not patched in like the Indra was, that they will be released as a paid weapon pack that makes them available for SP and MP for all platforms (like the ME2 weapon DLCs). All that's missing is the Chakram launcher, which will most likely be future paid DLC along with the Collector AR.
Note this is on 360, and the Raider is currently a PC exclusive.

Oh, the Raider.  I already own the Argus and the Valkyrie, but since I'm such a completionist, I'm going to buy the pack for the Raider.

As would I, but remember, none of them are in MP yet, so even the PC people with all three in SP would have reason to buy it. Nothing confirmed, but that's the theory Banshee and I came up with. Valkyrie/Argus/Raider pack, and also a Reckoner/Chakram pack later. Just speculation

Lots of speculation for everyone...