55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Turbo_J]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

There is little written evidence of indoctrination, and even less reference to slow Indoctrination. It's almost as if someone didn't want the mystery solved. It is like someone came along and cleansed the galaxy of clues.

But here is the incredible part, according to my findings the Reapers have been messing with the current cycle for close to 3000 years. I have tracked down every scrap and shred of evidence. Eventually subtle patterns start to emerge. Patterns that hint at the truth.

It is difficult to explain to someone else. I cannot point to one specific thing to prove my case. It is more a feeling derived from months of dedicated research. But I know I'm right and eventually I'll be able to prove it.

We are not alone in our plight for the truth... the above is a near quote from ME1. Sounds like how many of us feel, does it not? At least the BSN does not have a doubting Council.

Motherofgod. Before I read the last paragraph I thought it sounded like it could be a datapad message from the game and how cool you wrote it, but damn....
what crazy ARG is this?

ALSO: I now decided to take and accept the game itself as the only viable source of information, in other words, let the game speak for itself, let the artist speak only through his work. Imo this is a legit standpoint and conveniently excludes arguments a la "bad writing".

It's by Liara after rescuing her from Therum, just before she goes into the pattern of the cycle - which is a near quote of Vendetta's diatribe on the same thing.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:45 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Maybe if dark energy turned out to be real then we could make a compromise with the reapers. You take our ears to make more reapers but you leave the rest of us alone.

Edit: The reapers could hit the off switch, exterminate all organics, then hit the on switch and leave. I'm pretty sure that the reapers would be able to bypass any sort of control failsafe that organics made.

As for Vendetta being tampered with the reapers were probably already giving misinformation to the next cycle which would correlate with Vendetta acting different than the other VI's we meet. I think it is more likely to be tampered with afterwards because if the reapers knew about the enough about Prothean VI's to make one, then they would have tried to destroy the other VI's so all the next cycle would get is misinformation.

If TIM was not indoctrinated at the Cronos station then he would have had no reason to tamper with the VI because it wouldn't have made a difference. But if he WAS (yeah, yeah, I know) then the reapers would have him alter Vendetta to provide misinformation. If Shepard didn't see this then Shepard would be more likely to believe everything she saw in the ending sequence because it is strikingly similar to what Vendetta said.

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .

[RavenEyry]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Maybe if dark energy turned out to be real then we could make a compromise with the reapers. You take our ears to make more reapers but you leave the rest of us alone.

"Friends, humans, aliens! Lend me your ears!"

[EpyonX3]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Maybe if dark energy turned out to be real then we could make a compromise with the reapers. You take our ears to make more reapers but you leave the rest of us alone.

I'm not going see the end of this am I? lol

[DistantUtopia]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Maybe if dark energy turned out to be real then we could make a compromise with the reapers. You take our ears to make more reapers but you leave the rest of us alone.

I'm not going see the end of this am I? lol

At least they didn't ask for human horns.

[smokingotter1]

byne wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It certainly is suspicious they left the relays open when shutting them down is usually the first thing they do after taking the citadel. Could be to get all the allies in one place to get destroyed.

That was a really strange move. Having the Citadel = controlling the relay network = winning the war. Yet they do not take that advantage. Surely suspicious. I agree with the bolded part being the Reapers' motive. But it could also be for story-telling reasons (unite the Galaxy).

I agree. BW wanted to have a massive battle, can't have a massive battle if the reapers turn off the mass relays and divide and conquer.

Sometimes you have to have the villians hold the idiot ball to make the story more epic. Why did the empire build a second easily blowupable death star in ROTJ? So you'd have the battle of endor, duh.

A more realistic story of attrition warfare between the allies and the reapers would be hard to sell... to non-hardcore ME fans.

But this is BioWare we're talking about. They'd usually go out of their way to explain why it occurred like it did.

Maybe say that after Saren shut down the Relays around the Citadel in ME1, the Council made it so that only the four councilors together could shut down the Relays.

Make it need DNA scans of all four councilors simultaneously or something. That'd be something the Reapers couldnt fake, so they'd have to just resort to conventional warfare, unless they could capture the council and force them to do it.

(Which, conveniently, would have made the Citadel coup attempt make more sense. TIM is trying to capture the Council so he can get access to the Relay network)

Yeah, but again BW did not explain this because this can go on and on. So the council fixed it so you can't shut down the relays...but the reapers built the relays, tech the council races were never able to figure out themselves. Whatever the council did it would seem the reapers would be able to undo in seconds the same way Mordin can undo any STG sabotage.

Reapers: "aww, the council tried to deny us access to the relay networks" (control-tab) "and fixed"

again, the reason BW did what they did was for story telling reasons, same reason you hear space sounds (pew pew, boom!) in the battle for earth.

[CoolioThane]

Ears aid balance.

Reapers claim to aim to balance life.

It's true.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

The reapers could hit the off switch, exterminate all organics, then hit the on switch and leave. I'm pretty sure that the reapers would be able to bypass any sort of control failsafe that organics made.

As for Vendetta being tampered with the reapers were probably already giving misinformation to the next cycle which would correlate with Vendetta acting different than the other VI's we meet. I think it is more likely to be tampered with afterwards because if the reapers knew about the enough about Prothean VI's to make one, then they would have tried to destroy the other VI's so all the next cycle would get is misinformation.

If TIM was not indoctrinated at the Cronos station then he would have had no reason to tamper with the VI because it wouldn't have made a difference. But if he WAS (yeah, yeah, I know) then the reapers would have him alter Vendetta to provide misinformation. If Shepard didn't see this then Shepard would be more likely to believe everything she saw in the ending sequence because it is strikingly similar to what Vendetta said.

(re-posted because my edit came late and most people probably didn't see it).

Edit @CoolioThane: I thought tails were used to aid balance?

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:58 .

[Simon_Says]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Vendetta needs to be activated by a "Prothean" If you have Javik with you for that mission, he is able to activate everything. If you don't have him with you then Shepard has to do it. I did not notice anything too strange with Vendetta the first time you meet him. The second time on the Cerberus base he does act odd. If Vendetta is feeding Shepard misinformation and Shepard follows it...sounds like a trap to me.

I can't see how the reapers use the Citadel as a trap.

The reaper's strategy so far has been divide and conquer. They cut civilizations off from each other and take them out in pockets, not in full on massive battles. Javik and Vigil confirm how the reapers divided them up throughout the galaxy and cut them off from each other.

To now think that the reapers planned to move the Citadel to earth to bring all of the galaxy's forces onto one spot and risk losing numerous capital ships is unlikely. They were doing just fine making a mess of earth and every other homeworld before the Crucible was leaked to them.

The reapers not knowing about the Crucible is HIGHLY unlikely. As was stated a few pages back. If you save the "fake" Rachni queen you find out that those Rachni are indoctrinated and turn against you. Those Rachni were working on the CRUCIBLE. And then there are the countless indoctrinated reaper agents who...don't tell the reapers about the Crucible? I don't buy that. The fact that the reapers didn't expect the Crucible to come back after the Protheans tried to make it doesn't make sense either. How stupid do the reapers think the Protheans were to not save information for the next cycle? Ontop of that, starbrat (who we all believe to be a lying cheat) STATES that the reapers did not expect the Crucible to come back. That's also a load of poo, the reapers should know that each cycle doesn't hope/believe to defeat the reapers conventionally so they wil try to develop a super weapon. It is more than likely that the Crucible will be built and tried by the next cycle.

I had something else but I forgot. If it comes to me I will edit this post.

We know now that they knew of it. However, the reapers know what we know. And we didn't know that the Crucible needed the Citadel. Therefore, they could have had 80% of the workers indoctrinated, they still wouldn't have known the Citadel was the key.

When TIM found out from the VI, the reapers reacted. The catalyst also notices that the Crucible has evolved since they first saw it. Remember that the reapers have been doing this for some time. They know everything we know. They know what we are capable of and they attack when we reach a acertain point in development. That point is before we become powerful enough to stop them. That's what makes the Crucible so special. It's thousands or millions of ears worth of development. No cycle could afford that kind of time after the reapers attacked. All of their resources are destroyed or cut off. Without a plan for a super weapon, there's no way organics can do it.

According to the Catalyst...

• The Crucible is "little more than a power source."
• Therefore the Citadel must the source proper for space magic.
• Threfore the Citadel is capable of spreading synthesis if properly juiced up.
• The Catalyst must have been aware of this possibility, if it was attempted before.
• "We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago."
• Reapers don't make a Crucible themselves.
• "We believed the concept had been eradicated."
• Therefore the reapers didn't want to harness the Crucible.
• Therefore the reapers don't want synthesis.
• "(Synthesis) is the ideal solution."

Seems legit.

[CoolioThane]

But...we ain't got none tailz D:

[Dwailing]

Simon_Says wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Vendetta needs to be activated by a "Prothean" If you have Javik with you for that mission, he is able to activate everything. If you don't have him with you then Shepard has to do it. I did not notice anything too strange with Vendetta the first time you meet him. The second time on the Cerberus base he does act odd. If Vendetta is feeding Shepard misinformation and Shepard follows it...sounds like a trap to me.

I can't see how the reapers use the Citadel as a trap.

The reaper's strategy so far has been divide and conquer. They cut civilizations off from each other and take them out in pockets, not in full on massive battles. Javik and Vigil confirm how the reapers divided them up throughout the galaxy and cut them off from each other.

To now think that the reapers planned to move the Citadel to earth to bring all of the galaxy's forces onto one spot and risk losing numerous capital ships is unlikely. They were doing just fine making a mess of earth and every other homeworld before the Crucible was leaked to them.

The reapers not knowing about the Crucible is HIGHLY unlikely. As was stated a few pages back. If you save the "fake" Rachni queen you find out that those Rachni are indoctrinated and turn against you. Those Rachni were working on the CRUCIBLE. And then there are the countless indoctrinated reaper agents who...don't tell the reapers about the Crucible? I don't buy that. The fact that the reapers didn't expect the Crucible to come back after the Protheans tried to make it doesn't make sense either. How stupid do the reapers think the Protheans were to not save information for the next cycle? Ontop of that, starbrat (who we all believe to be a lying cheat) STATES that the reapers did not expect the Crucible to come back. That's also a load of poo, the reapers should know that each cycle doesn't hope/believe to defeat the reapers conventionally so they wil try to develop a super weapon. It is more than likely that the Crucible will be built and tried by the next cycle.

I had something else but I forgot. If it comes to me I will edit this post.

We know now that they knew of it. However, the reapers know what we know. And we didn't know that the Crucible needed the Citadel. Therefore, they could have had 80% of the workers indoctrinated, they still wouldn't have known the Citadel was the key.

When TIM found out from the VI, the reapers reacted. The catalyst also notices that the Crucible has evolved since they first saw it. Remember that the reapers have been doing this for some time. They know everything we know. They know what we are capable of and they attack when we reach a acertain point in development. That point is before we become powerful enough to stop them. That's what makes the Crucible so special. It's thousands or millions of ears worth of development. No cycle could afford that kind of time after the reapers attacked. All of their resources are destroyed or cut off. Without a plan for a super weapon, there's no way organics can do it.

According to the Catalyst...

• The Crucible is "little more than a power source."
• Therefore the Citadel must the source proper for space magic.
• Threfore the Citadel is capable of spreading synthesis if properly juiced up.
• The Catalyst must have been aware of this possibility, if it was attempted before.
• "We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago."
• Reapers don't make a Crucible themselves.
• "We believed the concept had been eradicated."
• Therefore the reapers didn't want to harness the Crucible.
• Therefore the reapers don't want synthesis.
• "(Synthesis) is the ideal solution."

Seems legit.

Wow, it all makes sense when you put it that way!  Or rather, it makes no sense, which is why it DOES make sense!

[Lokanaiya]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

*snip*

We know now that they knew of it. However, the reapers know what we know. And we didn't know that the Crucible needed the Citadel. Therefore, they could have had 80% of the workers indoctrinated, they still wouldn't have known the Citadel was the key.

When TIM found out from the VI, the reapers reacted. The catalyst also notices that the Crucible has evolved since they first saw it. Remember that the reapers have been doing this for some time. They know everything we know. They know what we are capable of and they attack when we reach a acertain point in development. That point is before we become powerful enough to stop them. That's what makes the Crucible so special. It's thousands or millions of ears worth of development. No cycle could afford that kind of time after the reapers attacked. All of their resources are destroyed or cut off. Without a plan for a super weapon, there's no way organics can do it.

But..but...It also takes thousands and millions of ears to create a reaper...WHAT HAVE WE DONE!.

On a serious note though, if Vendetta has been tampered with then it is very possible that the reapers were waiting for someone to stumble upon that information. The reapers would then only make their move because the reapers know that we know what we think we're supposed to do. They would not move the Citadel anywhere until we knew what it was "used" for because otherwise we would know something is up/something involves the Citadel (especially since they don't shut down the relays).

Think about it, the Crucible blast uses the relays to transfer its effects throughout the ENTIRE galaxy. This would PERFECTLY justify the reapers not shutting down the relays because they need the Crucible's effects to transfer throughout the entire galaxy. There is no reason to leave the relays open unless the reapers wanted something to be transfered to all parts of the galaxy.

Edit: byne ninja'd me on the ear joke. But then again, it has been made before.

That last paragraph made me think of something... we've long theorized that the Citadel has a low-level indoctrination field around it, and that the Crucible is an indoctrination booster. Put those pieces of information together with the fact that the Crucible uses the relays to transfer the blast everywhere,, and what do you have? Everyone in the galaxy indoctrinated and pacified, and a reason why the Reapers would never disable the relays or destroy the Crucible. It would even explain why the Citadel is called the Catalyst, since it speeds up a process without being changed itself.

Sorry if this was already pointed out.

Modifié par Lokanaiya, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

@Simon: I don't think that the reapers actually care. The reapers just want to make more reapers. The reason is reapers don't take all life in the galaxy is because it's the same thing as fishing all the fish (which we are doing by the way) there will eventually be no more fish and then the reapers can't make any more reapers...OH NO. The easiest way to harvest this cycle is to indoctrinate the avatar of it AKA Shepard. The starkid just wants to provide something that Shepard might choose but then have it actually indoctrinate her.

Edit @loka: I don't know if it was pointed out earlier but I definitely implied it. Just as Bioware seems to be implying the IT with the events in the game.

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[Rosewind]

Goood evening (well morning, it's midnight ), whats up?

[Dwailing]

Rosewind wrote...

Goood evening (well morning, it's midnight ), whats up?

Oh, nothing much, although if you want a nice summary of exactly when Star-Brat contradicts himself, look at Simon's recent post.

And those other guys are discussing the Reapers' possible motivations and the possible methods they used to move the Citadel to Earth.  I haven't really said that much on the topic, but it's an interesting discussion.

Modifié par Dwailing, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Rosewind wrote...

Goood evening (well morning, it's midnight ), whats up?

Hello. Some of the stuff in the last two pages are sort of interesting. It partains to why the reapers didn't shut down the relays. If you have an opinion on it then please share, we're having a little bit of a debate.

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:16 .

[BleedingUranium]

Simon_Says wrote...

According to the Catalyst...

• The Crucible is "little more than a power source."
  
• Therefore the Citadel must the source proper for space magic.
  
• Threfore the Citadel is capable of spreading synthesis if properly juiced up.
  
• The Catalyst must have been aware of this possibility, if it was attempted before.
  
  
• "We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago."
  
• Reapers don't make a Crucible themselves.
  
• "We believed the concept had been eradicated."
  
• Therefore the reapers didn't want to harness the Crucible.
  
• Therefore the reapers don't want synthesis.
  
• "(Synthesis) is the ideal solution."

Seems legit.

[*]"The created will always rebel against their creators"

[*]"Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis"


[*]Created to bring peace between organics and synthetics; kills creators and turns them into a Reaper[/list]

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:17 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

You would think that for "beings beyond organic comprehension" they would be better at not contradicting themselves.

[BleedingUranium]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

You would think that for "beings beyond organic comprehension" they would be better at not contradicting themselves.

Obviously they're above your comprehension, because you think they're contradicting themselves. They make perfect sense you just have to listen to what they're saying and let them into your hea- ARGH! NO! YOU WON'T HAVE ME! *bang*

[Chriz Tah Fah]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

You would think that for "beings beyond organic comprehension" they would be better at not contradicting themselves.

Obviously they're above your comprehension, because you think they're contradicting themselves. They make perfect sense you just have to listen to what they're saying and let them into your hea- ARGH! NO! YOU WON'T HAVE ME! *bang*

What was that? I can't hear you. The reapers took my ears.

My GOSH, are you alright Uranium? Guess not...well it would probably be okay to harvest your ears now.

[RavenEyry]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

You would think that for "beings beyond organic comprehension" they would be better at not contradicting themselves.

"Wait, you kill us to save us?"
"...N-no, it is not a thing you can comprehend"
"Seems pretty simple to me"
"BZZZTTTTT"

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Brazukka wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It certainly is suspicious they left the relays open when shutting them down is usually the first thing they do after taking the citadel. Could be to get all the allies in one place to get destroyed.

That was a really strange move. Having the Citadel = controlling the relay network = winning the war. Yet they do not take that advantage. Surely suspicious. I agree with the bolded part being the Reapers' motive. But it could also be for story-telling reasons (unite the Galaxy).

Exactly.If the reapers did this there won't be any chance of Shepard getting out of Sol System after escaping Vancouver. 

Actually I have a theory that the reapers dont so much shut down the Relay network as they change it, make it useable only by them, similar to the Omega-4 Relay. However seeinga s the Normandy has the Reaper IFF it can still travel and we know that Salarian also got their hands on the IFF using it to make stealth Dreadnoughts.

Possibly the Reapers simply assume that the IFF has been distributed across the galaxy and that taking the Citadel and changing the network will do nothing.

However this is still a stretch since the Omega-4 Relyas problem was that without the IFF the drift on the Mass Relay jump insured most ships did not hit the safe area near the Collector base but instead landed near a black hole or supernova star.

[Schachmatt123]

masseffect-universe.de has a chatsession this evening 7 p.m. german time (yes, 15 minutes from now):

http://forum.worldof...ica-and-Daniela

Chris Priestly will also be there... a good opportunity to ask questions about the endings!

Modifié par Schachmatt, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[paxxton]

Well, it could just so happen that the Reapers would deactivate the relay network with Shepard being in the vicinity of the Citadel. He would then have to fight to the control room and reactivate it. The whole Unite the Galaxy plotline would stay intact.

Modifié par paxxton, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:54 .

[RavenEyry]

There may be many fanon reasons for them not shutting down the relays, but the fact remains that Bioware could have put in a single line in EC to handwave a known plot hole but didn't.