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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#4901
Icinix

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MaximizedAction wrote...

Icinix wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Icinix wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

My doubts in ME3 began even before I saw the ending:
When I saw the tracklist and Mansell was ONLY responsible for "Leaving Earth"; yes, Hulick confirmed that Mansell was credited for "An End..." because it used the Leaving Earth theme.

And after finishing the ending (and seeing that the ME3 OST is yet to be announced on CD) and studying IT I thought:
Maybe the ME3 discs don't contain the whole game...

So it's all natural to question what we got.

Mansell must've done more tracks...

...or maybe not.


Indeed.

Although on that, personally, I'd like it if he didn't - I love thr music he did, don't get me wrong. Its great listening music, but its not great game music.


Don't YOU get me wrong. I'd rather if we had Wall and Hulick back for ME3. My point was just the fact that one would expect the both OST headliners to produce an equal amount of quality music.


Huh? I agree with everything you said totally, and especially on the last comment about Wall and Hulick and yeah definitely, considering the song and dance with Mansell - I expected more tracks to his name.


Sorry, didn't mean the first sentance in a rude way ;)


Ahh - cool. Bloody internet and its inability to detect tone. :wizard:

#4902
MegumiAzusa

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I extracted the sound file for this scene to check if I can hear something and yeah, the voices or whatever are mixed with some of the Reaper sounds in your dreams.

#4903
Rifneno

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Dwailing wrote...

Well, it seems like we've stopped talking about stuff, so I'll start up the dialogue again.

Shepard.


Wrex.

Icinix wrote...

Yeah there are two when plotting Mass Relay Jumps I can recall.

My first thought was there were markers / anchors for plots in the game so you weren't jumping through the core.

But then I realised that they could easily map around with star systems to travel too.

Has anyone done Map comparison to work out which systems they are we can't go too?


They change between games. Not much, they stay in the same general vicinity, but not enough to be positive "Okay, that's Hawking Eta..." and such.

Bill Casey wrote...

James Vega - Cerberus Spy working WITH the Collectors


I always figured he met Dr. O'Loy, or someone that made a similar deal. For those that don't remember, he was the scientist in Firewalker that made a deal with the Collectors: the Prothean artifact in exchange for sparing the colony his family was in. Could be there was a lot more to it (Vega's story) though.

paxxton wrote...

Hello! My opinion on Reaper fights is that they were made simple for gameplay reasons. It's unfortunate because there are so many other ways you can fight a Reaper, not only with guns but also with hacking or planting a computer virus, or like during the IFF mission in ME2 - getting inside and destroying the core. The Reapers are oversimplified in ME3.


Congratulations, you just reached TIM's level of nonsense without being indoctrinated.

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Though the Turians and Krogans did managed to destroy a few Reapers in this way by getting nukes on board the Reapers when tehy opened their chasis to allow political leaders inside (for indoctrination) but I dont think any Reaper is gonna let Shepard and crew climb inside it unless it is planning to Indoctrinate them.


Not true:

Harbinger wrote...

Shepard. I want you inside me.


paxxon wrote...

As for the oversimplification, it may be so because they were announcing their arrival for 2 games with big words and in ME3 you actually get to see what they can do. And you are like "What!? That's all it takes to destroy one?" I anticipated more direct fights (and more fights) with Reapers - not only ordering a fleet to bombard from orbit or having a tresher maw deal with it.


Are you ****ing serious? Destroyers are much weaker than capital ships. By "ordering a fleet to bombard" you're more than "oversimplifying" having the largest fleet in the galaxy rain hellfire on a miniture Reaper's weak spot. Which was only enough to disable it, hardly blowing it to bits. And Kalros is to a thresher maw what a Godzilla is to a chameleon. More to the point, if you knew much about Reapers, you'd know that their best defense is their immensely powerful kinetic barriers. Which, obviously, is completely meaningless against an animal. An animal that has the most potent acid known to exist. For reference sake, here in real life only metal that resists all known acids is iridium. Iridium has incredibly mass, it makes iron look like goddamn feathers, which means the Reapers aren't using it for their hulls since it would mean they'd have to spent many times over as much energy on their mass effect fields compared to if they'd used something made to fight starships rather than giant acid-spitting worms. In other words, thresher acid > destroyer's hull.

BleedingUranium wrote...

I really don't think the reapers are as awesome as everyone says they are, battle wise. Both in universe and by most fans.

Everyone likes to use the Rannoch reaper as an example of how tough they are, but really, that's a terrible example. The fleet was shooting from space, and trying to hit just the eye of the destroyer. Why to you think it has to cover that with armour? Yeah. Most of the shots were hitting the armour anyway. We havn't seen enough battles with Sovereign-class reapers to really say how good they are in a fight. Actually, we know a lot more about them from the codex, codex entries about battles, and emails about battles, and those sources say they're not as hard to beat as we think.

-As per standard super evil forces, they either think they're super awesome, or just scare everyone by telling them that.
-They need to trick, indoctrinate, and control people to either help them, sabotage people fighting them, or just do nothing.
-They need armies and armies of zobified organics
-They start, or at least, encourage synthetics to rebel
-They cut off all transport by stopping the use of mass relays
-They kill the heads of the whole galaxy in one go, right away, so no one can fight back properly

Sure they're tough, and smart, but they pretend they're way better and more powerful than they really are. "I am the vanguard of your destruction" is a pretty cool line, but seriously, reapers are full of ****, always have been.


Okay, we to discuss the meaning of the word "need." Just because something is done in warfare does not mean that the entire military will collapse without it. It means it's better than not doing it. Like any military that isn't utterly retarded, the Reapers take opportunities to weaken their enemies so that their own risks and costs are kept lower. Remember that story about how Victus handled that situation on Taetrus with Facinus? How he backed off and let Facinus get into it with a salarian spy ring (presumably STG) then came in and wiped out that Facinus group without losing a man? Do you think the turian government needed to let a handful of rebels that probably didn't know if they'd be able to eat tomorrow get into a firefight with STG? No. It was a good military call because it reduced their own risks. That's all.

Go ahead and take the Reapers lightly guys. I'm sure the yagh will handle it better in 50,000 years.

#4904
MegumiAzusa

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Rifneno wrote...

Go ahead and take the Reapers lightly guys. I'm sure the yagh will handle it better in 50,000 years.

Yupp, also they wont learn to read someone by touch like the Protheans but by eating them :3

#4905
paxxton

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Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hello! My opinion on Reaper fights is that they were made simple for gameplay reasons. It's unfortunate because there are so many other ways you can fight a Reaper, not only with guns but also with hacking or planting a computer virus, or like during the IFF mission in ME2 - getting inside and destroying the core. The Reapers are oversimplified in ME3.


Congratulations, you just reached TIM's level of nonsense without being indoctrinated.

Have you ever considered that it's you who is being indoctrinated by the game and its overarching theme of destroying the Reapers as the only true way to go instead of neutralizing them and understanding their workings/technology?

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

As for the oversimplification, it may be so because they were announcing their arrival for 2 games with big words and in ME3 you actually get to see what they can do. And you are like "What!? That's all it takes to destroy one?" I anticipated more direct fights (and more fights) with Reapers - not only ordering a fleet to bombard from orbit or having a tresher maw deal with it.


Are you ****ing serious? Destroyers are much weaker than capital ships. By "ordering a fleet to bombard" you're more than "oversimplifying" having the largest fleet in the galaxy rain hellfire on a miniture Reaper's weak spot. Which was only enough to disable it, hardly blowing it to bits. And Kalros is to a thresher maw what a Godzilla is to a chameleon. More to the point, if you knew much about Reapers, you'd know that their best defense is their immensely powerful kinetic barriers. Which, obviously, is completely meaningless against an animal. An animal that has the most potent acid known to exist. For reference sake, here in real life only metal that resists all known acids is iridium. Iridium has incredibly mass, it makes iron look like goddamn feathers, which means the Reapers aren't using it for their hulls since it would mean they'd have to spent many times over as much energy on their mass effect fields compared to if they'd used something made to fight starships rather than giant acid-spitting worms. In other words, thresher acid > destroyer's hull.

You didn't understand what I meant. I meant that the fights are rather short and schematic. They're fun, I agree, but all it takes on Rannoch is evading the Reaper's beam and pushing the button to lock the target. And it's not really complicated.

Modifié par paxxton, 23 mai 2012 - 01:06 .


#4906
BleedingUranium

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Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I really don't think the reapers are as awesome as everyone says they are, battle wise. Both in universe and by most fans.

Everyone likes to use the Rannoch reaper as an example of how tough they are, but really, that's a terrible example. The fleet was shooting from space, and trying to hit just the eye of the destroyer. Why to you think it has to cover that with armour? Yeah. Most of the shots were hitting the armour anyway. We havn't seen enough battles with Sovereign-class reapers to really say how good they are in a fight. Actually, we know a lot more about them from the codex, codex entries about battles, and emails about battles, and those sources say they're not as hard to beat as we think.

-As per standard super evil forces, they either think they're super awesome, or just scare everyone by telling them that.
-They need to trick, indoctrinate, and control people to either help them, sabotage people fighting them, or just do nothing.
-They need armies and armies of zobified organics
-They start, or at least, encourage synthetics to rebel
-They cut off all transport by stopping the use of mass relays
-They kill the heads of the whole galaxy in one go, right away, so no one can fight back properly

Sure they're tough, and smart, but they pretend they're way better and more powerful than they really are. "I am the vanguard of your destruction" is a pretty cool line, but seriously, reapers are full of ****, always have been.


Okay, we to discuss the meaning of the word "need." Just because something is done in warfare does not mean that the entire military will collapse without it. It means it's better than not doing it. Like any military that isn't utterly retarded, the Reapers take opportunities to weaken their enemies so that their own risks and costs are kept lower. Remember that story about how Victus handled that situation on Taetrus with Facinus? How he backed off and let Facinus get into it with a salarian spy ring (presumably STG) then came in and wiped out that Facinus group without losing a man? Do you think the turian government needed to let a handful of rebels that probably didn't know if they'd be able to eat tomorrow get into a firefight with STG? No. It was a good military call because it reduced their own risks. That's all.

Go ahead and take the Reapers lightly guys. I'm sure the yagh will handle it better in 50,000 years.


My point was more that if the Reapers were as awesome as they claim to be, they wouldn't have any reason to do any of that. Victus example not quite was I was thinking, more like, Ant > Boot.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 23 mai 2012 - 01:04 .


#4907
BleedingUranium

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paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hello! My opinion on Reaper fights is that they were made simple for gameplay reasons. It's unfortunate because there are so many other ways you can fight a Reaper, not only with guns but also with hacking or planting a computer virus, or like during the IFF mission in ME2 - getting inside and destroying the core. The Reapers are oversimplified in ME3.


Congratulations, you just reached TIM's level of nonsense without being indoctrinated.

Have you ever considered that it's you who is indoctrinated by the game and its overarching theme of destroying the Reapers as the only true way to go instead of neutralizing them and understanding their workings/technology?

Rifneno wrote...

paxxon wrote...

As for the oversimplification, it may be so because they were announcing their arrival for 2 games with big words and in ME3 you actually get to see what they can do. And you are like "What!? That's all it takes to destroy one?" I anticipated more direct fights (and more fights) with Reapers - not only ordering a fleet to bombard from orbit or having a tresher maw deal with it.


Are you ****ing serious? Destroyers are much weaker than capital ships. By "ordering a fleet to bombard" you're more than "oversimplifying" having the largest fleet in the galaxy rain hellfire on a miniture Reaper's weak spot. Which was only enough to disable it, hardly blowing it to bits. And Kalros is to a thresher maw what a Godzilla is to a chameleon. More to the point, if you knew much about Reapers, you'd know that their best defense is their immensely powerful kinetic barriers. Which, obviously, is completely meaningless against an animal. An animal that has the most potent acid known to exist. For reference sake, here in real life only metal that resists all known acids is iridium. Iridium has incredibly mass, it makes iron look like goddamn feathers, which means the Reapers aren't using it for their hulls since it would mean they'd have to spent many times over as much energy on their mass effect fields compared to if they'd used something made to fight starships rather than giant acid-spitting worms. In other words, thresher acid > destroyer's hull.

You didn't understand what I meant. I meant that the fights are rather short and schematic. They're fun, I agree, but all it takes on Rannoch is evading the Reaper's beam and pushing the button to lock the target. And it's not really complicated.


I died there more times that the rest of that playthrough put together Posted Image

#4908
paxxton

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BleedingUranium wrote...

I died there more times that the rest of that playthrough put together Posted Image

Strange. :P

Modifié par paxxton, 23 mai 2012 - 02:29 .


#4909
Big Bad

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OT: Since ME Infiltrator is now out for Android phones, I was thinking of picking it up. To those who have played it - is it worth the $7?

#4910
Lord Luc1fer

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byne wrote...

dmay7 wrote...

(I always considered GArrus to be my characters Best Friend, Tali as like my sister, and Liara and Ashley as my LI (Ashley in 1, Liara in 3 hehe)).


I'm sorry, but the correct answer was Liara throughout all three games. Thanks for playing. ;)

Although personally Liara and MaleShep always felt off to me. If I'm punishing myself by playing MaleShep, its Ashley in ME1, then Tali in ME2 and ME3.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LIARA IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE! Posted Image

#4911
Rifneno

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paxxton wrote...

Have you ever considered that it's you who is being indoctrinated by the game and its overarching theme of destroying the Reapers as the only true way to go instead of neutralizing them and understanding their workings/technology?


Only for about the jiffy it took me to realize that the machines who have spent a billion years challenging the best minds organic life has to offer to hack them probably are easier to take down by thinking outside the box rather than the exact dead center of it.

Have you considered that since Reapers are of both electronics and soylent green is because they might have a semi-organic mind and "deltree /y c:\\*.*" doesn't work well on people?

You didn't understand what I meant. I meant that the fights are rather short and schematic. They're fun, I agree, but all it takes on Rannoch is evading the Reaper's beam and pushing the button to lock the target. And it's not really complicated.


Oh, from a gameplay perspective you mean. Sorry, thought you meant storyline. My bad. That's definitely a reasonable gripe.

BleedingUranium wrote...

My point was more that if the Reapers were as awesome as they claim to be, they wouldn't have any reason to do any of that. Victus example not quite was I was thinking, more like, Ant > Boot.


There's a hell of a gap between "so immensely godlike that they are simply not subject to damage from lesser beings" and "totally beatable if everyone works together and believes in hope and love."

#4912
Lord Luc1fer

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Rifneno wrote...

Hmm, the Rannoch destroyer was probably more stable in that since it was an entire fleet using KINETIC weapons which we know their shields are more effective against,and that likely a goodly sized chunk of the fleet had to hit it dead on despite shooting from orbit, while also keeping the Geth off their backs. So yeah plausible.

THe Hades Cannons I don't think were destroyers, but I suppose the argument could be made that Shepard was firing a projectile slow enough to pass their shield and then blew up with an excessive amount of force right under the bottom of their chassis. Either that or it was causin a chain reaction, or potentially could be from the Cain ripping the attached Hades Cannon from it's mounting, which could potentially kill the destroyer as well.

Conduit destroyer was taken out by two THANIX missiles remember, which we know are considerably more effective.


Except that Thanix cannons cause the damage they do because of their tremendous speed. Thanix missiles makes no sense. It's like throwing a handful of bullets at something and expecting it to do the same damage as a barrage from an AK-47.


Couldn't a thanix missile be a delivery system for so kind of thanix payload which leaves the missile and huge velocity when the missile impacts? Just a thought Posted Image

#4913
HellishFiend

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Thomasrifkins wrote...

Dracorequiem wrote...

Dracorequiem wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

prettz wrote...

hears a short video of some strange sounds I noticed at end game.
www.youtube.com/watch


Nice! Can any people knowledgable about music determine what notes those chimes are at the beginning of that vid? Could potentially be a clue. 


no joke, the chime notes are A, B, C.

My mind = blown to smithereeens. It's like inception and they're trying desperately to tell us how terrible the literal ending is.


ah nvm just doublechecked it's ACE. i just wanted to believe the other :P


Neither, I get D E G


So its D E G then? Anyone able to speculate what that might mean? I got nothing. Perhaps it's meaningless.

Maybe it's along the lines of this?


Very well spotted! You're correct... there's actually a few other places we used elements of Vigil in both ME2 and ME3. In fact, we laced the entire game with a lot of audio Easter eggs... some fun, some tied to the narrative and some that go pretty far down the psychology rabbit hole :)

Rob Blake
Audio Lead - Mass Effect franchise
Bioware - EA


Hmmm....

#4914
Dwailing

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You know, I just re-watched the red pill/blue pill scene in the Matrix, and it did remind me of the ME3 ending. However, I noticed that the red pill is on the LEFT in the Matrix, while the blue pill is on the RIGHT (Facing Morpheus.) I wonder if BW specifically designed the ending choice to be an inversion of the famous scene.

#4915
HyperGlass

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Dwailing wrote...

You know, I just re-watched the red pill/blue pill scene in the Matrix, and it did remind me of the ME3 ending. However, I noticed that the red pill is on the LEFT in the Matrix, while the blue pill is on the RIGHT (Facing Morpheus.) I wonder if BW specifically designed the ending choice to be an inversion of the famous scene.

I wouldn't be surprised since Bioware did (not intentially I would say) place Matrix references e.g. the Catalyst is basicly a failed version of the Architect.

Modifié par HyperGlass, 23 mai 2012 - 02:22 .


#4916
HellishFiend

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HyperGlass wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I just re-watched the red pill/blue pill scene in the Matrix, and it did remind me of the ME3 ending. However, I noticed that the red pill is on the LEFT in the Matrix, while the blue pill is on the RIGHT (Facing Morpheus.) I wonder if BW specifically designed the ending choice to be an inversion of the famous scene.

I wouldn't be surprised since Bioware did (not intentially I would say) place Matrix references e.g. the Catalyst is basicly a failed version of the Architect.


Implying the Architect didnt fail? :huh:

#4917
Earthborn_Shepard

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Heyyyy..

I haven't been here for almost a week now..
any groundbreaking news?

#4918
HyperGlass

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HellishFiend wrote...

Implying the Architect didnt fail? :huh:

I meant the Architect made sence explaining what was going on etc. Granted he came out of nowhere at the last minute but he made sence unlike the Catalyst who just failed in explaining everything. Besides the Architect is badass; a cold-calculating being.

#4919
MegumiAzusa

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Dwailing wrote...

You know, I just re-watched the red pill/blue pill scene in the Matrix, and it did remind me of the ME3 ending. However, I noticed that the red pill is on the LEFT in the Matrix, while the blue pill is on the RIGHT (Facing Morpheus.) I wonder if BW specifically designed the ending choice to be an inversion of the famous scene.

Check the Paragon/Renegade bars in ME1 and 2, Paragon is on the left, Renegade on the right.

#4920
paxxton

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Rifneno wrote...

Have you considered that since Reapers are of both electronics and soylent green is because they might have a semi-organic mind and "deltree /y c:*.*" doesn't work well on people?

I didn't mean something as simple as that DOS command. Maybe some hybrid nanobiotech solution would do. I'm sure BioWare could come up with something. It just can't be that the only way is to crush them. There's always another way.

Modifié par paxxton, 23 mai 2012 - 02:39 .


#4921
MegumiAzusa

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Heyyyy..

I haven't been here for almost a week now..
any groundbreaking news?

I wouldn't say groundbreaking but:
You've got weapon bob in London. (please watch more then the first 6 seconds)
You can hear voices as Sheps head hits the floor including Reaper sounds. They fade out again as Shep regains consciousness.

#4922
Dwailing

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Heyyyy..

I haven't been here for almost a week now..
any groundbreaking news?

I wouldn't say groundbreaking but:
You've got weapon bob in London. (please watch more then the first 6 seconds)
You can hear voices as Sheps head hits the floor including Reaper sounds. They fade out again as Shep regains consciousness.


Nice find on the second one!  I find that very interesting.

#4923
HellishFiend

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HyperGlass wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Implying the Architect didnt fail? :huh:

I meant the Architect made sence explaining what was going on etc. Granted he came out of nowhere at the last minute but he made sence unlike the Catalyst who just failed in explaining everything. Besides the Architect is badass; a cold-calculating being.


Actually in the IT context the Catalyst is exactly what he should be, though. The Reapers know what theyre doing, theyve been indoctrinating people for millions of years. Further, Bioware knows what theyre doing, because a lot of people bought into the nonsense. Hell, I did the first time too, as did my best friend. 

Architect - explains the details of the situation, as well as his rationalizations.
Starbinger - generalizes the situation, citing absolutes that cant be proven.

Architect - explains the details of Neo's choices, as well as the consequences of each.
Starbinger - briefly lays out Shepard's choices, offering only his opinion on each. 

They both excel at what they intend to do. Architect wants Neo to know what's going on so he can make an informed decision. Starbinger wants to bedazzle Shepard (actually, the Player themselves) into being betrayed by his own values when making his choice. Brilliant, really. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 23 mai 2012 - 02:35 .


#4924
Earthborn_Shepard

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Heyyyy..

I haven't been here for almost a week now..
any groundbreaking news?

I wouldn't say groundbreaking but:
You've got weapon bob in London. (please watch more then the first 6 seconds)
You can hear voices as Sheps head hits the floor including Reaper sounds. They fade out again as Shep regains consciousness.


any suspicious tweets/interviews?

#4925
llbountyhunter

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Heyyyy..

I haven't been here for almost a week now..
any groundbreaking news?

I wouldn't say groundbreaking but:
You've got weapon bob in London. (please watch more then the first 6 seconds)
You can hear voices as Sheps head hits the floor including Reaper sounds. They fade out again as Shep regains consciousness.


any suspicious tweets/interviews?


Chris Priestly started a poll...

http://www.holdtheli...on-theory.1909/