Was talking to Azusa about that one day and he said mabye the DLC's will tie into the refusal some how by adding more resources to help them defeat the reapers evently.
That'd result in 2 options to break Indoc.
Is that a problem? there is already two options to be indoctrinated. But isn't refusal already breaking it just not in the same way as destroy.
Not necesarily, look up at Arians post further up.
Reject might very well be Shepards mind beeing broken, like in he is not Indoctrinated, but neither does he break free. He is useless to the Reapers, but dosent wake up either, possibly simply getting killed by Harbinger.
But truthfully what if there is more than one way to break free? Just because one has the breath scene doesn't mean the other is less viable, maybe Shepard takes longer to wake up from Refuse. Tossing ideas out there.
Your thoughts are appreciated, but unlikely. Read this.
Modifié par UltimateTobi, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:17 .
Was talking to Azusa about that one day and he said mabye the DLC's will tie into the refusal some how by adding more resources to help them defeat the reapers evently.
That'd result in 2 options to break Indoc.
Is that a problem? there is already two options to be indoctrinated. But isn't refusal already breaking it just not in the same way as destroy.
Not necesarily, look up at Arians post further up.
Reject might very well be Shepards mind beeing broken, like in he is not Indoctrinated, but neither does he break free. He is useless to the Reapers, but dosent wake up either, possibly simply getting killed by Harbinger.
Like that scientist on Eden Prime at the beginning of ME1 - a jibbering idiot.
I don't think Harbinger is anywhere near earth to be honest, but it's likely Shepard does get killed by something and subsequently eaten by husks.
But truthfully what if there is more than one way to break free? Just because one has the breath scene doesn't mean the other is less viable, maybe Shepard takes longer to wake up from Refuse. Tossing ideas out there.
Your thoughts are appreciated, but unlikely. Read this.
Yeah.
But that dosent mean everything is lost just because Shepard picked Control/Synthesis. Under the right pressure and with a strong will even a deeply Indoctrinated individual can break free for a short moment (Saren) allowing him to do what is necesary.
Such pressure could be Shepards squad confronting him or possibly his love interest,
It not be the only way to salvage the situation in case of Control/Synthesis as other effects and persons migt be able to help Shepard break free for a short or longer time.
One possibility I have brought up many times is the Rachni Queen who we know is resistant to Indoctrination and who can interact with the minds of other creatures, both dead and living. Combined with a quote from Bioware saying the Rachni choice could have a large impact on the ending and it is not unfeasible a Shepard who succumbs to Indoctrination might find himself saved by the Rachni Queen should she be alive.
Such scenarios would be less than ideal comapred to just breaking free.
But off course this is all theory untill we actually get an answer.
Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .
Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote... But that dosent mean everything is lost just because Shepard picked Control/Synthesis. Under the right pressure and with a strong will even a deeply Indoctrinated individual can break free for a short moment (Saren) allowing him to do what is necesary.
My personal idea for what would happen post indoc attempt has always included syn/con, which is why stargazer never bothered me.
But that dosent mean everything is lost just because Shepard picked Control/Synthesis. Under the right pressure and with a strong will even a deeply Indoctrinated individual can break free for a short moment (Saren) allowing him to do what is necesary.
Such pressure could be Shepards squad confronting him or possibly his love interest,
It not be the only way to salvage the situation in case of Control/Synthesis as other effects and persons migt be able to help Shepard break free for a short or longer time.
You could make a good end-gameplay with that. Like a "mini-game". You stand infront of your LI and squad, they reason with you. Then you get Paragon- and Renegade interrupts at the same time, switching relatively fast the sides, like "I don't know what to do!". Paragon would result in shooting yourself, Renegade would result in beginning to shoot at your LI and squad mates, and eventually resulting in someone killed, before they shoot Shepard (out of self-defense).
Or, because you're indoctrinated and think the cause of the Reaper is Paragon (hence Control is blue), think of it vice versa.
Modifié par UltimateTobi, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .
Hey all, if you haven't seen it yet, the video of the BioWare panel at Comic Con is on YouTube:
There were three fan questions pertaining to the ending, and I thought they were given interesting answers and decided to transcribe the questions and answers in case anyone cares to speculate on them. Honestly, I think they've given us some slightly more concrete answers that what we're used to. You should really watch them yourself to get a feel for the tone, facial, expressions, and body language of the writers/developers as they answer. I included the video times for each of the questions. Also, I excluded a lot of ums, you knows, and such.
Sylvia Feketekuty: I'll answer this question because it bugs me personally. We don't have a canon. We actually have gone out of our way not to declare a canon. You know, if your Shepard is a dude Shep who romanced Tali, if you're a fem Shep who romanced Kaiden, or Liara, or whoever, if you save the Racnhi, if you destroy the Krogan, that's your Shepard, we have never declared a canon, you know, even when we had to trip around Shepard's gender in things like comics. Mike Gamble: If we had planned to do a canon ending, (jokingly) that would have saved us so much damn work, that whole chart just would have been like a straight line, it would have been beautiful! Except we can't do that.
42:50 - What's the deal with the kid, why does Shepard see the kid througout the entire game?
Chris Hepler: Originally Shepard sees the kid because it's the one face on earth that pretty much crystallizes all of the people on earth that he can't save. When you finally get to the Catalyst, the Catalyst is essentially negotiating with you because [using air quotes during this entire following phrase] "its plan does not work any more" and it takes a non-threatening form. And also because Shepard shaking his fist at Harbinger or Sovereign or another reaper hologram didn't seem incredibly appropriate, we wanted to mix it up with something a little new. Sylvia Feketekuty chimes in: Yeah we had it 3 times before: Arrival, ME1, ME2, it felt a little "samey" at that point. Chris Hepler continues: And there's only so many times you can be told you're bacteria before you want to make a flag with bacteria on it and stick it in a reaper husk somewhere. Gamble iterrupts: The whole dream sequence basically galvanizes what Chris was saying about Shepard, not being able to save the kid on earth and that crystallizing what the loss on earth is. And I'll just set the record straight that the faint shadows that you're seeing throughout those dream sequences, those are meant to be kind of, you know, representations of the people he couldn't save, and they get progressively worse throughout the game because it just gets that much more intense. Chris Hepler: And you may not be able to always hear what exactly the whispers are saying, but those are actually various characters you couldn't save, for example if Ash died on Virmire ... so we actually went through the trouble of doing all that.
47:20 - What's the motivation with the teaser survival of Shepard in the particular ending?
Sylvia Feketekuty: The teaser was sort of fun to add in because you need to get your military strength, you have to have your forces above a certain level. And the motivation was, I think we were looking at all the endings, I remember, and then going 'are these all too bleak?' I mean, you know, Shepard dies, or is transfigured, or lost forever, and we said, you know what, for the fans who really scraped every single last thing off the galaxy map and stuffed them in the Normandy's hold or however those get to you, we wanted to do a little beacon of hope for them and say, you know what, I see the N7 breastplate lifting, who else wears an N7 breast plate? Oh, my Shepard does... (pumps fists with anticipation) And we didn't want to leave people without that I think, it was really hard to let Shepard go in some sense for us too, so that was sort of fun for us too to sneak in. Parrish Ley: But we also did intentionally make that sightly vague, so it is open to you projecting your own gameplay experience on to it, so we didn't want to, again, show how he's potentially damaged or what he looks like, so it is meant to be a little ambiguous in that respect. Chris Hepler: Yeah it could be just a last gasp before death if you want to look at it that way. Sylvia says "if, if" and someone on the panel chimes in "MAYBE" after a small uproar from the crowd. Mike Gamble: (Jokingly) A giant piece of rebar could just eventually fall on him after that, but, you don't know! I'm just a troll, I'm sorry. Someone in the crowd says "Mass Effect 4 please" and several of the panel members laugh (sounds like nervous laughter).
Edit: Almost forgot, Sylvia Feketekuty talks a bit about the Reject ending when discussion writing Liara:
38:20 Sylvia Feketekuty: And Parrish, you guys did that beautiful scene in the extended cut where if you choose to reject the reapers' offers... Mike Gamble: Or if you accidentally shot the catalyst, just by accident... Some comments and jokes ensue about "accidentally" shooting the catalyst. Sylvia continues: But you know, you reject the reapers offers, the cycle continues, but your team brought that beautiful scene where you see a hologram of Liara and little Glyph in the background, and future generations of species have discovered her, and its just this wonderful cyclical nod to discovering Vigil back on Ilos in ME1. Somewhere in the back of my head I always thought "It'd be cool if we got a scene like that," and then you made it happen.
I finally got around to reading some of the comics. The Arca Monolith, the device that planted the seeds for TIM's indoctrination and likely Saren's as well. When Ben Hislop touched it, there was some sort of energy that looked like electricity flying all over hell. His skin was turned an ashen gray, parts of it melted away revealing wires beneath. Jack Harper (young TIM) tried to pull him away and it is through that indirect contact to the Monolith that he got those eyes.
I'll just say what my thoughts were after watching the panel Q&A.
First of all, they sound pretty serious about there being no canon ending. But I don't think this discounts IT. Even with an IT interpretation, Shepard does make a choice at the end, and according to these statements, none of these choices (becoming indoctrinated or not) is canon. Also, this still leaves questions about Arrival. Sylvia seems to specifically be referring to canon in-game, avoiding declarations in the comics what would become canon in game, such as Shepard's gender. So does that imply comics are canon, which would include Arrival...? Anyway.
About the catalyst. Hepler states that the Catalyst is taking a non-threatening form. This does imply that the Catalyst, the reapers, are in Shepard's head somehow, whether through hallucination or mind reading of some sort. Add to this what Priestly and Merizan said about the male and female Shepard voices in the Catalyst's. Also, I find either suspicious or disappointing the statement about being told you're bacteria so many times. Really? The writers thought the reapers, one of the best video game villains of all time, were just getting old and decided to pull a 180 on them, turning them into some kind of misguided villains with good intentions? Really? <_<
Gamble interrupts at this point, which was interesting because it kind of gave me the impression that he wanted to direct the conversation away from where it was going. Anyway, his statements clarify the shadows in the dreams. Of course, this doesn't really change IT, because well we already pretty much thought this, and believe that these figures and the kid are indoctrination creeping in, attempts from Harbinger meant to manipulate Shepard.
Regarding the breath scene, I don't even know what to say about that. They haven't really clarified much, but it was interesting that Ley jumped in to clarify that the breath scene is supposed to be ambiguous and you're meant to project your own gameplay experience onto it. IT anyone? Lol. And I like how the conversation then devolved with the statement "it could be a dying gasp". It's like they got nervous and haphazardly tried to misdirect the conversation. Well that's how it seemed to me.
I finally got around to reading some of the comics. The Arca Monolith, the device that planted the seeds for TIM's indoctrination and likely Saren's as well. When Ben Hislop touched it, there was some sort of energy that looked like electricity flying all over hell. His skin was turned an ashen gray, parts of it melted away revealing wires beneath. Jack Harper (young TIM) tried to pull him away and it is through that indirect contact to the Monolith that he got those eyes.
Any of this sounding familiar? *cough*
I've never had the stomach to pick control, so no! Haha
Thanks for the post, been looking for a cap of it. Interesting responses, narrows things down slightly but not much. They sure do like us to speculate
If IT is still true in some form I doubt we'll see much in the way of confirmation for quite awhile. If it's not true, well hell I still look forward to the DLC.
Regarding the breath scene, I don't even know what to say about that. They haven't really clarified much, but it was interesting that Ley jumped in to clarify that the breath scene is supposed to be ambiguous and you're meant to project your own gameplay experience onto it. IT anyone? Lol. And I like how the conversation then devolved with the statement "it could be a dying gasp". It's like they got nervous and haphazardly tried to misdirect the conversation. Well that's how it seemed to me.
"It could be a dying gasp" was ALMOST as asinine an answer as "the reapers win ending I promise is just the game over screen" answer.
Thanks for the post, been looking for a cap of it. Interesting responses, narrows things down slightly but not much. They sure do like us to speculate
If IT is still true in some form I doubt we'll see much in the way of confirmation for quite awhile. If it's not true, well hell I still look forward to the DLC.
No problem! Lol they do love the speculations... It's smart really, they're keeping us hooked, interested, and talking about the game until the very end.
Always thought it was interesting the AI chose The Boy of all the characters in the ME Universe to "talk peace" with Shepard. Always have to ask "Why not Anderson?" or "Why not the Virmire Sacrifice?" or any number of fallen squad mates at this point (depending on your Shepard).
Out of all the options it comes to you in the form of a Child you couldn't save, an embodiment of all those left to the Reapers on Earth you couldn't save. And now, here he is, with a way to save him and everyone else.
Always thought it was interesting the AI chose The Boy of all the characters in the ME Universe to "talk peace" with Shepard. Always have to ask "Why not Anderson?" or "Why not the Virmire Sacrifice?" or any number of fallen squad mates at this point (depending on your Shepard).
Out of all the options it comes to you in the form of a Child you couldn't save, an embodiment of all those left to the Reapers on Earth you couldn't save. And now, here he is, with a way to save him and everyone else.
Interesting, at the least.
Good point. Non threatening? More like manipulative. That reminds me. The writers mentioned some stuff about the ending, and reject, before the Q&A. I'll go get that part real quick.
I find it more interesting that they said they gave you the child, a non threatening form, as opposed to having another conversation with a Reaper hologram or Harbinger/Sovereign.
I find it more interesting that they said they gave you the child, a non threatening form, as opposed to having another conversation with a Reaper hologram or Harbinger/Sovereign.
Might as well out and say "Yep, he's a Reaper."
I think there is no other way to interpret the "So be it!", either. He's clearly a Reaper in some way.
Starbuck8 wrote...
*lots of speculations*
Thanks for the answers in written form. Helps a lot for a better analysis.
Modifié par MaximizedAction, 20 juillet 2012 - 11:38 .
I find it more interesting that they said they gave you the child, a non threatening form, as opposed to having another conversation with a Reaper hologram or Harbinger/Sovereign.
Might as well out and say "Yep, he's a Reaper."
I think there is no other way to interpret the "So be it!", either. He's clearly a Reaper in some way. *Snip*
Almost forgot, Sylvia Feketekuty talks a bit about the Reject ending when discussing writing Liara:
38:20 Sylvia Feketekuty: And Parrish, you guys did that beautiful scene in the extended cut where if you choose to reject the reapers' offers... Mike Gamble: Or if you accidentally shot the catalyst, just by accident... Some comments and jokes ensue about "accidentally" shooting the catalyst. Sylvia continues: But you know, you reject the reapers offers, the cycle continues, but your team brought that beautiful scene where you see a hologram of Liara and little Glyph in the background, and future generations of species have discovered her, and its just this wonderful cyclical nod to discovering Vigil back on Ilos in ME1. Somewhere in the back of my head I always thought "It'd be cool if we got a scene like that," and then you made it happen.
Anyway, this was interesting to me because she called them the "reapers' offers". I dunno, the game makes it feel like your choices are the result of the crucible, not the catalyst. But considering them the "reapers' offers", and also considering that according to the writers the catalyst chooses his form, the boy, which is quite manipulative given what they specifically stated he represents, all the people who Shepard couldn't save on earth, I think this is pretty significant for IT.
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That reminds me. The writers mentioned some stuff about the ending, and reject, before the Q&A. I'll go get that part real quick.
