Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#52201
Dwailing

Dwailing
  • Members
  • 4 566 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

By the way.

  • The reapers/Catalyst controlled TIM.
  • We're shown TIM controlling Shepard to some degree.
  • Ergo the reapers/Catalyst were controlling Shepard to some degree by proxy.

"He could never have taken control.... because we already controlled him."

"But I can?"

"You will die. You will control us but you will loose everything you have."

"But the reapers will obey me?"

"Yes."


Seems legit.


I think this is why they added the extra left-middle dialog option to 'explain' you what happens in the EC. What part of your 'soul' being made into a Reaper/new Catalyst did you find unbelievable? :P


Or what about by adding your "energy" to the Crucible you alter the "matrix" of organic life?  That's totally legit and not space magic, right? :wizard::wizard::wizard:

#52202
Simon_Says

Simon_Says
  • Members
  • 1 164 messages
The mental upload is most likely analogous to coping AI files. It doesn't transfer the entity, but it transfers the knowledge. But, as EDI said of Grunt, "The subject may know of his views, but not doesn't necessarily share them." And then Grunt himself said that for all the knowledge given unto him by Okeer, he felt no connection.

And matrix of organic life: nanotech augmentation. It adds nanotechnology to the 'matrix' of organic life (cells, tissues, genetics, etc.) Basically, what husks have already.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:27 .


#52203
masster blaster

masster blaster
  • Members
  • 7 278 messages
Okay I was playing the return mission again, and I was talking to the Catalyst and i notice something. in Refuse the catalyst does not make a face, He only moves his lips, and says SO BE IT.

Also I can confirm this because I am on the PC and I change the graphics size in the game, so it can fit on my flat inch screen TV, and I dined that brightness a bit.

#52204
Simon_Says

Simon_Says
  • Members
  • 1 164 messages

Eryri wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Eryri wrote...

From a storytelling perspective that's true. It does have the unfortunately side effect of turning TIM into even more of an over-confident, wannabe Bond villain though.

That's what he is though, isn't he? He was a complex character in ME2, with ambiguous motives, multi-dimensional characterization, etc. Indoctrination made him a one-note BadGuy just like every other indoctrinated villain in the series. The only complexity or depth every indoctrinated villain had was the contrast between their pre- and post-indoctrinated personalities. I was actually already writing about this for the Selfish Meme theory thread but I'll bring it up now since it's an opportune moment.

Yes he is rather diminished in ME3 - I mean even Dr Evil had enough sense to keep plenty of minions around! Maybe the Reaper Induced brain damage is setting in.

By the way - in case you didn't see my posts in your thread - I really like your theory. I hope Bioware are taking notes.

Remember that there weren't many Cerberus troops left after the attack on the Citadel and the loss of several key installations throughout the galaxy including Sancutary and Cronos. And that TIM wasn't a man to have bodyguards around him. He preferred to keep distance and only act through proxy. Which makes TIM... directly intervening in matters personally on the Citadel with Anderson and Shepard all the more out of character.

Oh, and I updated Selfish Meme theory with an interesting quote from Shiala, courtesy of legaldinho.

#52205
Eryri

Eryri
  • Members
  • 1 853 messages

Simon_Says wrote...

Oh, and I updated Selfish Meme theory with an interesting quote from Shiala, courtesy of legaldinho.


Shiala said...
"Every idea must touch another mind to live."


Hmm - Interesting. I think someone at Bioware might have read a bit of Dawkins too...

Modifié par Eryri, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:50 .


#52206
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

masster blaster wrote...

Okay I was playing the return mission again, and I was talking to the Catalyst and i notice something. in Refuse the catalyst does not make a face, He only moves his lips, and says SO BE IT.

Also I can confirm this because I am on the PC and I change the graphics size in the game, so it can fit on my flat inch screen TV, and I dined that brightness a bit.

What face do you mean?

#52207
Samtheman63

Samtheman63
  • Members
  • 2 916 messages
star kids, he smiles if you choose sysnthesis or control (i think)

#52208
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages
I know about Control only.

#52209
nov_pl

nov_pl
  • Members
  • 385 messages
I was recently thinking about arguments of IT. In the documentary, one of them was, that it's a hallucination since Shepard has infinite ammo. "Ok", I thought, "Lot's of games have levels with infinite ammo". But here's the thing: Never in Mass Effect saga, such case took place, not even in a very similar situation, when you were shooting Eva on Mars. It was almost the same: slow motion, pistol that you weren't actually using, but during this encounter you could run out of ammo, so you'd have to reload, and that never happens after you're hit with the beam.

#52210
nov_pl

nov_pl
  • Members
  • 385 messages

masster blaster wrote...

Okay I was playing the return mission again, and I was talking to the Catalyst and i notice something. in Refuse the catalyst does not make a face, He only moves his lips, and says SO BE IT.

Also I can confirm this because I am on the PC and I change the graphics size in the game, so it can fit on my flat inch screen TV, and I dined that brightness a bit.


Yes. If you chosse controll or synthesis he smiles. Furthermore, if you choose destroy, he, almost immieadietly, dissapears. 

#52211
smokingotter1

smokingotter1
  • Members
  • 735 messages
Overlay Analysis Part Deux

Ok so we talked about the fact that we can have over overlay in the Overlord DLC. Now it's time to talk about visions. If the ending to Mass Effect 3 is a hallucination why are there cutscenes and cinematics showing the crucible firing? Are the reapers able to plant images and videos into Shepard's mind? Yes and I have an example of just that.

When Shepard meets Object Rho you hear this high pitch wind chime like effect you hear after you pick your decision (minus refuse) in the decision Chamber. This starts when Dr. Kenson presents Object Rho to Shepard. We first get a close up.

Posted Image

What's weird is as Shepard approaches Object Rho you start seeing weird flashes and everything starts to look washed out, just like after you make your decision in the decision chamber.

Posted Image
Looks like this:
Posted Image

Shepard get's hit with a white halo
Posted Image

Than the reaper shows Shepard images and thoughts of things to come but don't happen due to Shepard's intervention, demonstrating that the reapers can implate false images and thoughts into Shepard's mind.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
You can see what looks to be Shepard's helmet.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:21 .


#52212
nov_pl

nov_pl
  • Members
  • 385 messages

smokingotter1 wrote...



Shepard get's hit with a white halo
Posted Image

.


Notice it's the exact same halo Shep has before dreams and after being hit with the Beam.

#52213
Chriz Tah Fah

Chriz Tah Fah
  • Members
  • 433 messages

Simon_Says wrote...
It's almost certain that rationality wasn't the primary factor of your decision the first time you made it. It wasn't for me. I fell for the Catalyst hook line and sinker and picked synthesis due to my own transhumanist leanings.

I too had no idea what was going on at this point. I saw that kid that died and then he starts talking to me as if he knows everything? So I listened to him ramble and explain the choices. Control...wow this sounds pretty good...wait...is that TIM? Nah, not picking that.

Synthesis. This sounds pretty cool too! Wait...wasn't this what Saren wanted? Nah, not picking that either.

Destroy! This sounds like it kind of sucks...wait...is that Anderson? DOING IT! *BLAM BLAM BLAM BOOM* and that was basically the ending in a nutshell for me.

It wasn't until later when I was playing the game through a second time for my walkthrough did I listen to the codex entry about Indoctrination, "betraying friends...trusting enemies." Oh shi-GAIS, DIS IS WUT HAPPEND IN DUR ENDING. Then I found this thread.

Edit: In case it wasn't blatantly clear. You would be trusting TIM/Saren and thus be betraying Anderson. I don't play renegade Shep so I did not quite notice this in too many other places in the game.

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .


#52214
SubAstris

SubAstris
  • Members
  • 1 721 messages

nov_pl wrote...

I was recently thinking about arguments of IT. In the documentary, one of them was, that it's a hallucination since Shepard has infinite ammo. "Ok", I thought, "Lot's of games have levels with infinite ammo". But here's the thing: Never in Mass Effect saga, such case took place, not even in a very similar situation, when you were shooting Eva on Mars. It was almost the same: slow motion, pistol that you weren't actually using, but during this encounter you could run out of ammo, so you'd have to reload, and that never happens after you're hit with the beam.


Just think of this: You play through the ending, listen for ages to Catalyst's bullcrap and then you realise you're out of ammo. You would be p***** to put it lightly. Therefore BW just made it so that you had infinite ammo, not to mention that gameplay is not the key thing at this time

#52215
Bill Casey

Bill Casey
  • Members
  • 7 609 messages
Has anyone considered the possibility Shepard will pull a Revan?

He might possibly play an antagonist role in a game that coincides with the events of Mass Effect 3...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:55 .


#52216
Fingertrip

Fingertrip
  • Members
  • 1 192 messages
I was strongly in favor to IT, and I still wish it was true- but quite frankly after Extended Cut and everything post-ME3 ending just seems to indicate that it's indeed over.

From even a business perspective stand-point, it feels really questionable to add what-would be, the real conclussive ending several months after it's release. You'd have lower playerbase then during the first week or months of the initial playerbase, people do move on and tend to forget/ignore what is to come.

The ending just seems to give you clarification what actually went down, and given the "showcase" of per se, Synthesis- seems to indicate that this is what happends, and nothing really else. The half man, half machine theme seems to be just influenced by Deus Ex and whatnot, and they forgot the players real goal, which was to stop the Reaper threat, not somehow merge with their technology and etc; (Okay, not really merge- but the whole co-existance with what has been reaping civilizations for aeons seems really out of place, which I believe is one strong arguement for why people are abit upset over the whole outcome, seeing as 2/3 possible endings are co-existance)

Either way, the extended cut work-with the music from Sam Hullick seems really composed in the matter to give you the real-feeling of satisfaction + conclussion. I believe the Memorial Wall and the Normandy flying away is a pretty good indiciation that, this is the end of the story, now you can use your imagination for what happends there-after, not deliberately feeding the player with the makers vision of what happends.

I believe that's also what the original ending was suppose to accomplish, however- people really wanted the after-math effects (Which was pretty much given by the makers of ME3 again, the baby-krogans and all pretty much self-explanatory event that you went through ME).

It doesn't seem to give the players that much of an "Hmm, I feel there's more to it, I mean- all these scenes I just saw for the past 5-10 minutes seems shady!" -> I wouldn't exactly call the Memorial Scene anything "Indoctrination", alá thing, it just feels like that the team does indeed, mourn the loss of their love- or Commander, and they're going to move on afterwards.

Destroy just gives you feeling that, they do know Shepards probably out there alive- which of course is hinted towards in the added scene with Shepard drawing his breathe, but again- it's an question of interpretation if it might be even his last breath before perishing, nobody knows- it's the players decision to give you the ending you want, not what the maker wants. I feel it's also somewhat justified with Biowares decision, as much as I may dislike it, because I've got abit of a lack of imagination in this regard.

I doubt they're going to pump more of their budget and work onto additional ending scenarios. It's alot of work and variables they're going to factor, let-alone- it might even cost you money, if it indeed does come out, considering they've got a limited budget- eventho they're a big name. They're not going to carry out free-DLC forever, it's just a retcon from the backlash from the first few month of hate to win back some paragon points from the community.

If it does indeed contain some added ending-scenes and scenarios, and there's a pricetag- people are going to be quite upset over the fact there's more to the ending content, but only accessible with DLC. That's like paying for a book, and you don't get the last few pages from the Author, you need to actually buy those pieces for a sum, yet- you can feel conclussive with what you've read. It's a decision, but the ones that are die-hard fans, will end up being abit mad over the fact there's more to it, but there's a fee in order to access it.

#52217
lex0r11

lex0r11
  • Members
  • 2 190 messages

Bill Casey wrote...

Has anyone considered the possibility Shepard will pull a Revan?

He might possibly play an antagonist role in a game that coincides with the events of Mass Effect 3...




Posted Image

#52218
FellishBeast

FellishBeast
  • Members
  • 1 689 messages

lex0r11 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Has anyone considered the possibility Shepard will pull a Revan?

He might possibly play an antagonist role in a game that coincides with the events of Mass Effect 3...




Posted Image


+1

#52219
FellishBeast

FellishBeast
  • Members
  • 1 689 messages

SubAstris wrote...

nov_pl wrote...

I was recently thinking about arguments of IT. In the documentary, one of them was, that it's a hallucination since Shepard has infinite ammo. "Ok", I thought, "Lot's of games have levels with infinite ammo". But here's the thing: Never in Mass Effect saga, such case took place, not even in a very similar situation, when you were shooting Eva on Mars. It was almost the same: slow motion, pistol that you weren't actually using, but during this encounter you could run out of ammo, so you'd have to reload, and that never happens after you're hit with the beam.


Just think of this: You play through the ending, listen for ages to Catalyst's bullcrap and then you realise you're out of ammo. You would be p***** to put it lightly. Therefore BW just made it so that you had infinite ammo, not to mention that gameplay is not the key thing at this time


Clearly that Carnifex was an old model from the ME1 era, that didn't require thermal clips.

#52220
masster blaster

masster blaster
  • Members
  • 7 278 messages

FellishBeast wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

nov_pl wrote...

I was recently thinking about arguments of IT. In the documentary, one of them was, that it's a hallucination since Shepard has infinite ammo. "Ok", I thought, "Lot's of games have levels with infinite ammo". But here's the thing: Never in Mass Effect saga, such case took place, not even in a very similar situation, when you were shooting Eva on Mars. It was almost the same: slow motion, pistol that you weren't actually using, but during this encounter you could run out of ammo, so you'd have to reload, and that never happens after you're hit with the beam.


Just think of this: You play through the ending, listen for ages to Catalyst's bullcrap and then you realise you're out of ammo. You would be p***** to put it lightly. Therefore BW just made it so that you had infinite ammo, not to mention that gameplay is not the key thing at this time


Clearly that Carnifex was an old model from the ME1 era, that didn't require thermal clips.


I wish. So does that mean I can get my Specter assult rifle weapon that has unlimated ammo.:D

#52221
Ducktroll

Ducktroll
  • Members
  • 5 messages

SubAstris wrote...

nov_pl wrote...

I was recently thinking about arguments of IT. In the documentary, one of them was, that it's a hallucination since Shepard has infinite ammo. "Ok", I thought, "Lot's of games have levels with infinite ammo". But here's the thing: Never in Mass Effect saga, such case took place, not even in a very similar situation, when you were shooting Eva on Mars. It was almost the same: slow motion, pistol that you weren't actually using, but during this encounter you could run out of ammo, so you'd have to reload, and that never happens after you're hit with the beam.


Just think of this: You play through the ending, listen for ages to Catalyst's bullcrap and then you realise you're out of ammo. You would be p***** to put it lightly. Therefore BW just made it so that you had infinite ammo, not to mention that gameplay is not the key thing at this time


There is one other instance where you have infinite ammo...well, ever-repleneshing ammo...while you're virtually inside the Geth consensus.

#52222
masster blaster

masster blaster
  • Members
  • 7 278 messages

Ducktroll wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

nov_pl wrote...

I was recently thinking about arguments of IT. In the documentary, one of them was, that it's a hallucination since Shepard has infinite ammo. "Ok", I thought, "Lot's of games have levels with infinite ammo". But here's the thing: Never in Mass Effect saga, such case took place, not even in a very similar situation, when you were shooting Eva on Mars. It was almost the same: slow motion, pistol that you weren't actually using, but during this encounter you could run out of ammo, so you'd have to reload, and that never happens after you're hit with the beam.


Just think of this: You play through the ending, listen for ages to Catalyst's bullcrap and then you realise you're out of ammo. You would be p***** to put it lightly. Therefore BW just made it so that you had infinite ammo, not to mention that gameplay is not the key thing at this time


There is one other instance where you have infinite ammo...well, ever-repleneshing ammo...while you're virtually inside the Geth consensus.



true as is the partical beam rigle too. So this can clarify that if this is a dream/walking nightmer/ Indoctrination, then they used Anderson's Carfinex. And gave it unlimated ammo.

#52223
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

lex0r11 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Has anyone considered the possibility Shepard will pull a Revan?

He might possibly play an antagonist role in a game that coincides with the events of Mass Effect 3...




Posted Image


The...the...
Dat epicness :crying:

#52224
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

FellishBeast wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Has anyone considered the possibility Shepard will pull a Revan?

He might possibly play an antagonist role in a game that coincides with the events of Mass Effect 3...




Posted Image


+1

Except that in Star Wars we have no influence on what is going to happen with Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader. Mass Effect is so much better in this regard.

Modifié par paxxton, 23 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .


#52225
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

The...the...
Dat epicness :crying:

It was epic but we already knew what was going to happen.