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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#52326
WandySilva

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masster blaster wrote...

Otter and why Shepard has a bullet in his/her side, when Anderson dies, and why it's on the same side. Also can you get a picture, of the bullet hole that Shepard covers once Anderson is dead.


its also interesting that when he ascends to the descision chamber, he is still clutching his side, but is no longer bleeding, infact his hand, that was covered in blood, is much cleaner.

#52327
smokingotter1

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masster blaster wrote...


Also did anyone notice that before the EC, it took more assets to get the Breath scene, rather than
synthesis. Even in the EC the breath scene, is still higher than  Synthesis. My question being, is that. Is Synthesis Bioware's best  ending because the Breath scene is higher than any of the chocies given
when we meet the Catalyst.


Two ways you can view this:

1. Synthesis is an unlocked bad ending for fans who played ME1-3. Think about it, the people who are most likely to max out their EMS are probably those who also played through the previous two Mass Effects. Thus synthesis is an extra hint to ME fans that the decision chamber is an indoctrination attempt because fans will remember Saren and the "synthesis" that happend to humans on the collector base.

2. Any players who max out their EMS probably have a Shepard character who cares deeply about uniting the galaxy, and the reapers play off of that. Remember synthesis is unity for all. Players who did every side quest (and thus have a high EMS) are going to probably want a happy ending. A person who just sped through ME3 will have a Shepard that did not really try hard to unite the galaxy and thus the appeal of synthesis is not on the table for their Shepard.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 24 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .


#52328
masster blaster

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Otter do you mind editing the Destroy into Synthesis in the quote above your post?

#52329
smokingotter1

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Or to put it another way, a Shepard who has invested so much time in trying to make people happy and thus getting a high EMS will be more open to an indoctrination attempt that promises that everyone can be united and get along through space magic.

#52330
masster blaster

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Oh and Otter I ment that is it realy the best ending, if the Breath scene is HIGHER than Synthesis?

#52331
smokingotter1

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masster blaster wrote...

Oh and Otter I ment that is it realy the best ending, if the Breath scene is HIGHER than Synthesis?


Think I fixed it.:)

#52332
masster blaster

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Wandy your right I just thought about that, and it also got my attention, that I think that if you have low EMS, or some mid EMS it's not a dream, but real. Yet if you have high EMS it's just an Indoctriation attempt on Shepard's mind. Hence why Jessica said that she has a save for IT, and a Literalist save for ME3.

#52333
masster blaster

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IT also explains why the breath scene requiers so much assets to get, if it was Shepard waking up from the nightmer/dream.

#52334
Simon_Says

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By the way. Lord Humongous should totally have words with the Catalyst.

The Starbrat said...

The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle... We harvest advanced civilizations. Leaving the younger ones alone... We help them ascend, so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in reaper form... Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics. We've created the cycle so that never happens, that's the solution.

Lord Humongous would say...

What a puny plan.



#52335
masster blaster

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Oh and is the Stargazer there at the end if you have low/ mid EMS or is it just for high EMS because if it's not, then I have some evidence on if the Low/Mid EMS endings are real.

#52336
OneWithTheAssassins

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smokingotter1 wrote...

Alright just some raw observations I noticed in working on the overlay theory. Remember how I said that reality leaches into Shepard's hallucinations, how the decision chamber was an overlay of the conduit run, and showed pics that I argued proved that the destroy ending was walking into Harbinger's beam. I got some more. First let's revist a passage about indoctrination:

"...organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing
or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being
watched
"


Question is, is Harbinger still watching Shepard throughout the ME3 ending. First lets look at those orange eyes:

Posted Image
No matter how much Harbinger tries some bits of reality manage to sneak into Shepards hallucinations. Being ITers you all already know about the Mako wheels being in the decision chamber and the dream trees.

Well check this out. I bet your thinking "oh it's just a stupid light big whoop." Not exactly note its position. It's one of the first things you see popping up into the decision chamber. Note it's positioning. Also it's the only orange light in that blood filed hallway. I double checked, all the other lights are white, this one is orange.

Posted Image



I used to think that the orange sun like glow meant hope when picking destory.... but again disregard the reaper but look at what I circled, the color and relative location in regards to Shepard.

It appears on every dream level Shepard is being watched by Harbinger, Harbinger has not left Shepard's side (aww<3).


Posted Image

Remember how I sped up the catalyst 2 song and it sounded exactly like a train? That would seem to suggest that there is a significant time dilation between what Shepard is experiecing in the "decision chamber" and what is happening in real life.

Side note: Also did you notice how the control option kind of looked like a giant hand? I circled what I thought looked like a hand and drew a green line to what I saw as a thumb. Shepard falling into the "reapers clutches?"

Posted Image

:wizard:




I think my head is actually starting to hurt from Bioware hitting me on the head with all these clues...:pinched:

#52337
WandySilva

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masster blaster wrote...

Wandy your right I just thought about that, and it also got my attention, that I think that if you have low EMS, or some mid EMS it's not a dream, but real. Yet if you have high EMS it's just an Indoctriation attempt on Shepard's mind. Hence why Jessica said that she has a save for IT, and a Literalist save for ME3.


Not so sure about it being real in the low-mid ems, I think that its either a dream or literal for all endings. The main reason being the low ems destroy, specifically that a weapon used to destroy synthetics is able to incinerate organics? I have read some of the counter arguments to this, but I find it much more plausible that this is a symbolic dream than an actual happening. Shepard has lost the war and humanity has failed, he didnt bring enough war assets and has no hope of victory, the reapers know they have won so they have no use in forcing a final choice on shepard.

#52338
smokingotter1

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Simon_Says wrote...

By the way. Lord Humongous should totally have words with the Catalyst.

The Starbrat said...

The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle... We harvest advanced civilizations. Leaving the younger ones alone... We help them ascend, so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in reaper form... Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics. We've created the cycle so that never happens, that's the solution.

Lord Humongous would say...

What a puny plan.


(What I would have said to Starchild)

Smokingotter: "I don't understand your logic:huh:-... wait. Have you been getting into your Mommy and Daddy's liquor cabinet?;) Also where is it?:mellow: I could use a drink."

#52339
masster blaster

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Well I thought it was, but you make a good point. Also is the stargazer there in Low EMS, or mid EMS at the end credits? And the refues/ reject does not count. Oh crap I just thought that if you refues the Ctalyst/ reject his offer what happens if you have low/mid EMS? If this is IT ending rather than the breath scene, what about Low/mid EMS for saying f you to the catalyst?

#52340
masster blaster

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It's right next to the Control panel to the left Shepard, but you have to put both of your hands to open the bottle.

This is for otters joke about Shepard wanting a drink.

Sorry on my phone.

#52341
Bill Casey

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The decision chamber looks a lot like the Muppets in Space poster...

Posted Image
Posted Image

Notice how Kermit and Miss Piggy are predominantly cool colors, and Fozzy and Animal are predominantly reds and oranges...


"It's not as deep as you think"

I wonder what that could mean?
I think I'm on to something guys...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:17 .


#52342
WandySilva

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masster blaster wrote...

Well I thought it was, but you make a good point. Also is the stargazer there in Low EMS, or mid EMS at the end credits? And the refues/ reject does not count. Oh crap I just thought that if you refues the Ctalyst/ reject his offer what happens if you have low/mid EMS? If this is IT ending rather than the breath scene, what about Low/mid EMS for saying f you to the catalyst?


stargazer is there in all endings including low ems, cant seem to find any variations on the refusal ending (besides verbal vs shoot).

#52343
masster blaster

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Bill I think that would be funny if that was the case, but the struture around the beam of light, reminds me of project Overlord. When you see.. crap forgot the name of the person that is surronded by what looks to be. The same trianguler shape point, that is at the end game.

#52344
Simon_Says

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Be confused.

#52345
masster blaster

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smokingotter1 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

But is a glow present in the control panel chamber?

-edit- And in a completely offtopic topic, Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker. I'm 8 minutes in only and it's... urgh. I am not going to get hyped for Paragon Lost.


The control panel hallway funpark is a bit weird and I would say is also representative of Shepard's actually brain:

You have arteries represented by the hallway and tubes, bodies representing blood cells damaged by indoctrination:

Posted Image


Neurons firing
Posted Image


Synaptic pathways. When the crucible arms open is symbolic of Shepard opening his eyes:
Posted Image

And you have TIM/Anderson/Shepard, the Fruedian trio representing ID/Superego/and Ego trying to figure out how to open Shepard's eyes or the conduit wings and take control of Shepard.

The ID alone can't take control of Shepard, Shepard has to "believe" TIM in order for TIM to gain power over Shepard. It's only when Shepard supresses his ID (or kills TIM, notice no blood, symbolism!) and Anderson's superego approves of Shepard is Shepard given the go ahead to take control of himself.






#52346
masster blaster

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Simon what am I looking at. All I see is EDI getting fed up like I said 50 pages back, and how Tali is fine, and not complaning that her suit is breached.

#52347
masster blaster

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Okay guys I am tried from today.

So night, and see you all in 8 hours.

#52348
Guest_magnetite_*

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I've always looked at it as kind of an inception style ending **spoilers** was the ending a dream or not. we are left with an EXTREMELY ambiguous scene that cuts out before we can get any real answers.

so to answer your question, I'd say it is very possible


There was a note scribbled on Mac Walter's ending notes that had something to do with "The Matrix". In that film, they mention that "what if you weren't able to wake from that dream, how would you know the difference between the dream world, and the real world?".

Also, in the Final Hours app, the chapter they talk about the ending is called "The Perfect Illusion". Can't be just a coincidence.

Modifié par magnetite, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:45 .


#52349
V-rcingetorix

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Very interesting. I admit, I was skeptical about the whole Indoctrination Theory, but I think you guys have done enough research, legwork and brainsweat to qualify for a Psychology thesis paper :)

If this is what was meant by "artistic," and there is a true ending coming as DLC, then well done BioWare! I'd be slighttly annoyed at their play, but still, a masterful stroke.

#52350
Leonia

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More amazing analysis from the Otter, good stuff!