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[Bill Casey]

Bill Casey wrote...

The decision chamber looks a lot like the Muppets from Space poster...




Notice how Kermit and Miss Piggy are predominantly cool colors, and Fozzy and Animal are predominantly reds and oranges...


"It's not as deep as you think"

I wonder what that could mean?
I think I'm on to something guys...

masster blaster wrote...

Bill I think that would be funny if that was the case, but the struture around the beam of light, reminds me of project Overlord. When you see.. crap forgot the name of the person that is surronded by what looks to be. The same trianguler shape point, that is at the end game.

You can see how Miss Piggy and Animals elbows form the handle like extremities...
How Rizzo the Rat and Kermits outstretched arms point towards the beam like the prongs...

You can see the clouds in the background, and a lightish strip that goes into darkness in the chamber and dark mountains in the poster...

I believe in the Indoctrination Theory, but I always look for alternate explanations...
This is my "Mac and Hudson got high and watched Muppets From Space" theory...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[WandySilva]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Very interesting. I admit, I was skeptical about the whole Indoctrination Theory, but I think you guys have done enough research, legwork and brainsweat to qualify for a Psychology thesis paper

If this is what was meant by "artistic," and there is a true ending coming as DLC, then well done BioWare! I'd be slighttly annoyed at their play, but still, a masterful stroke.

I think it was biowares intent to do something original and different, and if IT is true, it will make a lot of people happy, and it will ****** others off, but thats the point of art (and the integrity that comes with it), it is meant to evoke emotion and thought. With that in mind, IT would truly make Mass Effect a work of art.

[WandySilva]

magnetite wrote...

I've always looked at it as kind of an inception style ending **spoilers** was the ending a dream or not. we are left with an EXTREMELY ambiguous scene that cuts out before we can get any real answers.

so to answer your question, I'd say it is very possible

There was a note scribbled on Mac Walter's ending notes that had something to do with "The Matrix". In that film, they mention that "what if you weren't able to wake from that dream, how would you know the difference between the dream world, and the real world?".

Also, in the Final Hours app, the chapter they talk about the ending is called "The Perfect Illusion". Can't be just a coincidence.

Interesting.... speculations EVERYWHERE!

[Bill Casey]

magnetite wrote...

There was a note scribbled on Mac Walter's ending notes that had something to do with "The Matrix". In that film, they mention that "what if you weren't able to wake from that dream, how would you know the difference between the dream world, and the real world?".

www.youtube.com/watch

Joker says something similar after the Geth Consensus mission...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[Leonia]

Eryri wrote...

What I think Simon is saying is that the way the Catalyst only suggests that Shepard may die in Destroy - obviously implies that he may survive - which to a selfless personality like Paragon (and even Renegade) Shepard perversely makes it less attractive to that kind of personality.

If Shepard was certain that he would die in Destroy, that would mitigate his guilt over also killing the Geth and EDI, because he would be sharing their fate. He wouldn't be doing anything to them that he wouldn't be prepared to do to himself.

The Catalyst is using a subtle bit of reverse phychology to imply that Shepard would be acting like a selfish, cowardly jerk in picking Destroy, as it might save his own skin - not an appealing prospect to a heroic mindset.

 

I know this is several hours old now but wanted to requote because the bolded bit at the end is what finally made sense to me. It was hard to buy the "won't have to live with the consequences of killing off the geth and EDI" train of the thought because I don't imagine Shepard would think that way, being a heroic figure that puts the needs of others before herself (even as Renegade). But when you mention the reverse psychology, yep, totally can see that now and the idea of self-sacrifice for the greater good is definitely within the realm of possibility for Shepard.

Survivor's guilt is nasty business and regardless of Shepard's psychological profile as chosen by the player, there's definitely an element of guilt being felt after leaving Earth (man, it must really hurt for Sole-Survivors) that is being manipulated by the Catalyst (perhaps the image of the dieing child was actually planted all along). This is further explained by Simon's analysis of the dream arc.

Anyway, it's more than a bit worrying that the Reapers/Catalyst have such a firm grasp on Shepard's thought processes and internal psychology, maybe it's further proof that they have been in her head for awhile now. How will Shepard react to this revelation? How will the people closest to her who have missed the signs feel? How will it be dealt with, can it be dealt with as we have never seen a proper "cure" for indoctrination before?

[Bill Casey]

Synopsis of Muppets From Space...

http://muppet.wikia....pets_from_Space

Gonzo has previously been classified as a "whatever," but after he begins to have disturbing dreams of abandonment, he begins to realize just how alone he is in the world. After an alien race appears to be trying to send him a message through his bowl of Kap'n Alphabet Cereal, Gonzo realizes that he may not be so alone after all and climbs to the rooftop to start watching the sky. His dreams are realized when he's hit by a bolt of lightning that serves as a conduit that allows him to communicate with a pair of Cosmic Fish, revealing to him that he is, in fact, an alien from outer space.

While Kermit and his friends refuse to believe his wild ravings, Gonzo is lured into the clutches of K. Edgar Singer (Jeffrey Tambor), a government agent who has also taken note of the aliens' attempts at communication and believes that Gonzo is his key to convincing his superiors that aliens do in fact exist. Kermit and the gang spring into action to rescue Gonzo, with the help of some handy inventions courtesy of Dr. Bunsen Honeydew and Beaker.

After a talking sandwich reveals to Gonzo the location of the eventual alien landing site, the Muppets (along with a crowd of alien-happy spectators) await their arrival. The ship comes to Earth and the aliens, who all look suspiciously like Gonzo, apologize for abandoning him but welcome him back to the fold. At first Gonzo considers going with them, until he realizes his true home is on Earth with his surrogate family and friends.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:08 .

[Arian Dynas]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Very interesting. I admit, I was skeptical about the whole Indoctrination Theory, but I think you guys have done enough research, legwork and brainsweat to qualify for a Psychology thesis paper

If this is what was meant by "artistic," and there is a true ending coming as DLC, then well done BioWare! I'd be slighttly annoyed at their play, but still, a masterful stroke.

*GASP*! Someone who read the evidence, considered it and came to their own conclusion, unfettered by the vitriol of others!

They're so rare! I must snap a picture. :happy:

[Arian Dynas]

Bill Casey wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The decision chamber looks a lot like the Muppets from Space poster...




Notice how Kermit and Miss Piggy are predominantly cool colors, and Fozzy and Animal are predominantly reds and oranges...


"It's not as deep as you think"

I wonder what that could mean?
I think I'm on to something guys...

masster blaster wrote...

Bill I think that would be funny if that was the case, but the struture around the beam of light, reminds me of project Overlord. When you see.. crap forgot the name of the person that is surronded by what looks to be. The same trianguler shape point, that is at the end game.

You can see how Miss Piggy and Animals elbows form the handle like extremities...
How Rizzo the Rat and Kermits outstretched arms point towards the beam like the prongs...

You can see the clouds in the background, and a lightish strip that goes into darkness in the chamber and dark mountains in the poster...

I believe in the Indoctrination Theory, but I always look for alternate explanations...
This is my "Mac and Hudson got high and watched Muppets From Space" theory...

I get where you are going Casey, I don't always agree with Otter's breakdowns either(I do think I have called a few of them "crazy" I believe.) but, I DO agree with him on the train imagery, seeing as it WAS brought up before when some people reported hearing a sound like a train whistle when choosing control, as well as the symbolism of not being able to control his own fate/journey any longer.

And I did like the observation about the control handles requiring 4 hands, like those of a keeper, to have full control over it.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:14 .

[Bill Casey]

I'm leaving where I'm going open to interpretation...

[Rosewind]

What ever you guys are taking I want some ><

[TheKevinShow]

Hell, maybe all of Mass Effect 3 is a hallucination. Everything you've been imagining since arriving at the Project Base in Arrival is a hallucination. If you were knocked out by the guards, you were just imagining it. No matter what, Object Rho knocked you out. If you didn't play Arrival, Shepard did go through those events but Object Rho erased their memories of what happened.

Shepard was indoctrinated by Object Rho and the Reapers killed everyone.

[Arian Dynas]

For a bit of fun from the Youtube front;

Then I'll say this, Antagonists are not wrong or evil by definition. They simply oppose the PROtagonist. However, TIM and Saren are not just antagonists, thy're Villains, with a capital V, they commit horrendous crimes, the Reapers commit horrendous warcrimes and slaughter trillions of innocent beings. Them having a reason that seems logical to them does not excuse that. Far be it for me to invoke Godwin's law, but Hitler thought the Final Solution was pretty logical too, doesn't make him right.
ariandynas in reply to NoobOfLore 4 days ago

Reply
I don't think they're doing things as they should.
Their motivations, on the other hand, are hardly ignoble. That said, they all definitely need to be stopped.
I don't claim that I should follow the orders of these antagonists, but doing what they were intending to, WITHOUT the violent subjugation and sustained unethical experimentation, was not wrong.
So they were not wrong in what they were trying to do, they were wrong in what they were willing to sacrifice to their utopia.
NoobOfLore in reply to ariandynas 4 days ago

The best villains always have the best of intentions. Well, for the most part anyway.
In fact, I hear the road to this lovely little place called Hell is paved with them.
ariandynas in reply to NoobOfLore 3 days ago

Cliches don't count as arguments. I addressed the problems with what TIM and Saren did, and bypassed the overtly oppressive and violent methods they require to get there with the Space Baby's other options.
TIM wanted to control, but he was indoctrinated and his original plan needed him to fatally experiment on millions/billions.
Saren's plan for unification needed the forcible subjugation of all organic races, with the help of the Heretic Geth.
Control and Synthesis did not have those problems.
NoobOfLore in reply to ariandynas 3 days ago

Control and Synthesis do have those problems.
You are choosing between altering an entire galaxy of beings without their consent. EDI and the Geth would not be pleased, Javik would sooner throw himself out the airlock than become what we see in Synthesis, and many others would feel the same.
In control, you become a dictator in command of an army of the dead, placed in perpetual torment. Every Reaper was an individual at one point. Would YOU want that fate?
ariandynas in reply to NoobOfLore 3 days ago

I think I can handle EDI's and the Geth's scorn for the chance to not kill all of them and to set technology forwards hundreds of years instead of backwards.
I do recognize that there are some invasive issues with Synthesis. I know what Javik would think, I disagree with him on many points. I pity the people who would be unable to cope, but these sorts of people exist during all types of technological and historical revolutions, and I'm not going to let them keep me from saving the Geth.
CONT--
NoobOfLore in reply to ariandynas 2 days ago

Just want you to know; " Humanity will advance more than the last 10,000 years combined!"
"Listen to yourself! You're indoctrinated!"
You are believing exactly what they want you to believe. You say the Catalyst has no reason to make you not trust him. But he doesn't have anything to make you trust him either!
ariandynas in reply to NoobOfLore 2 days ago

Suggesting that I am literally indoctrinated is conspiracy theorizing to the highest degree, and really has no basis in logic. I didn't make the decision as Shepard, I made the decision as myself.
I don't have reason to trust Space Baby over there. However, he is the ONLY SOURCE of information regarding what the options do, and as demonstrated in the EC, he was not wrong. He implied, of course, that I would die upon destroy (which is still likely) but this is the only discrepancy.
NoobOfLore in reply to ariandynas 2 days ago

Indoctrinate - Verb 1. To teach a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
He is not the only source of information. There's Javik, who flat out tells you that attempting to Control the Reapers will only be met with failure, and we have seen on two occasions where Synthesis and Control have failed spectacularly.
Either way, type in SentraMaster and Choose Wisely into your Google box and watch his video for a more eloquent explanation about Control and Synthesis.
ariandynas in reply to NoobOfLore 19 hours ago

I've given an entire plethora of reasons, literally zero of which have been refuted by you. I don't need to be indoctrinated to hold any view other than your own personally preferred one.
Space Baby was the only source of information on what each of the mechanisms actually did. Javik could not have told me "jumping into the glowey beam would turn all organics into synthetics, that's bad!" Nobody was there to actually tell me what all the things were SUPPOSED to do, other than Space Baby.
--CONT
NoobOfLore in reply to ariandynas 14 hours ago

Look buddy.
1). Calm the **** down. It's a videogame.
2). It was a joke. But you can't deny that the viewpoint you're touting is remarkably close to the enemy's. An enemy know for being subversive and deleterious by their very nature.
3). I'm not going to give you a point by point simply because it is a conversation I am not involved in, and not genuinely worth my time.
4). Stop using "propaganda" it is not appropriate for what we are talking about.
5). You didn't read the annotations.
ariandynas in reply to NoobOfLore 13 hours ago

You are either involved in this discussion or not. If "not being involved" is your excuse for dodgy and ineffectual reasoning, then there is no merit to hearing your arguments.
The annotations didn't bring me anything that I didn't understand from watching the videos. I recognized the themes as they came up and disagreed for already stated reasons.
As a rhetorical tool, my use of the word "Propaganda" works just fine.
I'm plenty calm, your disingenuous accusations have been taken in stride.
NoobOfLore in reply to ariandynas 13 hours ago

Very well then. I am not involved in this farce (as a rhetorical tool, my use of the word face works just fine.) You already made your decision, which you are not changing, nor will you allow to be changed. There is no conversation to be had when the parties are not open to oneanother. And before you say I am being hypocritical (which, I am sure you were about to) I am open, as loathe as I am to admit it, that the ending may be literal. However, I prefer to consider a different turn of events.

See what I have to put up with?

[Arian Dynas]

I think it's him trying to make a point by way of satire.

[Arian Dynas]

comrade gando wrote...

Jeez louise arcian no need to bite my head off yeesh.

I hate the ending as much as anybody, but the game itself is amazing. Unfortunately this is the only game ive played that is simultaneously stuck between the best and worst game Ive ever played.

Its the best game I'll never play again. And im pissed because I almost had the perfect trilogy in my grasp, snatched away at the last minute.

And thats why im here nerdraging about it.

Yes, but not all of want to hear it. If you are genuinely in pain and seeking comfort, then take our advice. If you aren't and just want to air your dirty laundry, call up the operator on your phone and talk to a recording for a while to vent.

[prettz]

anything interesting in the last 100 pages?

[Leonia]

While the satire is amusing, I don't think we should be so quick to discredit Otter's ideas. The symbolism during the confrontation between Shepard, TIM, and Anderson is worth understanding and making sense of because its so obviously a metaphor for something else. While the whole Freudian thing has been done countless times before in other fictional works, it's not so common that it has become a cliche.

When we're talking about something that influences the mind the way indoctrination does, then there's sure to be internal conflicts going on and we've seen Shepard doubt herself before. I think it was mentioned that Walters has a degree in psychology so obviously he'd be interested in digging deep into Shepard's mind and playing on such themes. I'm less convinced that the Citadel scenes are a metaphor for synapses, nerves, and blood cells but it's an interesting observation all the same.

The train stuff is also worthy of note as it has been brought up before. The meaning behind the Crucible and its actual function, why is it called the Crucible in particular... why didn't they call it a Doomsday Weapon or something similar. And then there's Object Rho though I'm less convinced of that part due to the fact that if Shepard didn't do Arrival the game implies somebody else blew up the Alpha Relay (without going into any sort of detail).

Still it's all food for thought and I find myself really pulling for the Overlay Theory now.

Modifié par leonia42, 24 juillet 2012 - 08:44 .

[Arian Dynas]

prettz wrote...

anything interesting in the last 100 pages?

There's nothing interesting right now, since everyone seems to be glib.

[estebanus]

Yay, I finally got my sword!

Also, anything new?

[Rosewind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

prettz wrote...

anything interesting in the last 100 pages?

There's nothing interesting right now, since everyone seems to be glib.

Say what?

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

prettz wrote...

anything interesting in the last 100 pages?

There's nothing interesting right now, since everyone seems to be glib.

Say what?

Exactly.

[estebanus]

Oh and Arian, youtubers really aren't the smartest people around, at least in my experience.

For example, I was arguing with an idiot a few days ago who said that the germans had nuclear weapons and flying saucers in the 2nd world war, and that they used the essence of lesser gods to fuel their industrial progress.

[estebanus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

prettz wrote...

anything interesting in the last 100 pages?

There's nothing interesting right now, since everyone seems to be glib.

Say what?

Exactly.

uuuuhhh...