55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwyphon]

Am I the only one who has an instant like for this guy? ^

[RavenEyry]

Gwyphon wrote...

Am I the only one who has an instant like for this guy? ^

The signiture is great and their post is what many of us fear.

[Ageless Face]

Some questions, if you don't mind.

So there is that battle for control of Shepard's mind, right? The inodctinated part vs the sane part, In the form of TIM and Anderson. Now, I get why Shepard is controlled by TIM, since it means that the indocrinated part is winning in taking control (up until Shepard shoots TIM/TIM shoots himself, that is). What I don't get is why Anderson is also under TIM's control. I get it if he will be shown weak or something, since Shepard's sanity is loosing itself, but why under TIM's control?

Also, what does TIM shooting himself means? That the reapers having seconds thoughts of controlling Shepard or something?

Shepard shooting Anderson means that Shepard also shot him/herself. So doesn't this means Shepard should die when Anderson dies? 

Last question on subject. TIM was never an agent of the reapers. In fact, the reapers seemed to want to destroy sanctuary, showing they don't really support being controlled. TIM says that the reapers are still his enemies. So why show TIM as the indoctrinated part of Shepard, if he was never seem to be indoctrinated until this point, (and if it was all a hallucination in the first place, most likely that TIM is not indoctrinated as far as we know)?


And now a different question on another topic. I read this and there is something I don't understand. I assume this is an agreed interpetation on most, so forgive me if it's not.

"So, what if you kept the collector base in ME2?

...if Shepard made the immoral choice of retaining a technology that is that perverse and than decides to freely handed it over to the most sinister man in the whole galaxy, it’s pretty clear that Shepard’s resolve to destroy the Reapers has started to wane...."

Shepard says to TIM in ME3 that s/he only kept the base so TIM will find a way to destroy the reapers. Shepard was never on TIM's side throughout all ME3 (up until the very end, which it's totally optional choice of dialogue and doesn't affect anything), and as I said before, TIM was never an agent of the reapers (as far as we and Shepard know), so even siding with him in ME2 shouldn't make a Shepard who kept the base seem weaker than a one who didn't.

What I'm asking is, considering the fact Shepard isn't easier to be indoctrinated if you kept the base and can stand up against the reapers just as much as a Shepard who desotryed the base, what if you kept the collecor base in ME2?

Sorry for the amount of questions .

Modifié par HagarIshay, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:55 .

[MegumiAzusa]

I guess you misunderstand some concepts of indoctrination. It's not "do this" followed by "yes Master" like the Collectors, who are under direct control. It's giving nudges in the direction they want you to go. Even Saren who was clearly indoctrinated was researching if there was something to stop himself from getting/being indoctrinated.

[Ageless Face]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I guess you misunderstand some concepts of indoctrination. It's not "do this" followed by "yes Master" like the Collectors, who are under direct control. It's giving nudges in the direction they want you to go. Even Saren who was clearly indoctrinated was researching if there was something to stop himself from getting/being indoctrinated.

The difference is, that TIM's need for control was clearly not hin indoctrinated part. In Saren's case, it seems it was, since Sovereign was in favor of what Saren wanted to do. In TIM's case, the reapers were against it.

[Gwyphon]

Anderson being under control of TIM:
Tim is the indoctrinated portion of Shepards mind. It's calling the shots in this delusion/illusion so TIM is shown to physically be in control. Shepard sees TIM as being indoctrinated as he believes he is indoctrinated (reading the log where TIM voluntarily implanted reaper rech in himself). It is possible TIM is not indoctrinated but I believe he is. At least that's my take on it. What's strange is that when you communicate to TIM via the comlink in his base he doesn't appear to be implanted, yet on the citadel he suddenly does. Really bad face exma or an inference on Shepards part, I'm not sure.

As for keeping the base I'm not really sure. I'm too tired. hopefully some one else can answer that.

Edit: By you talking TIM into shooting himself, you are under the impression that you are back in control of yourself and have overcome the task ahead of you. But have you really...?

Modifié par Gwyphon, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:13 .

[MegumiAzusa]

HagarIshay wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I guess you misunderstand some concepts of indoctrination. It's not "do this" followed by "yes Master" like the Collectors, who are under direct control. It's giving nudges in the direction they want you to go. Even Saren who was clearly indoctrinated was researching if there was something to stop himself from getting/being indoctrinated.

The difference is, that TIM's need for control was clearly not hin indoctrinated part. In Saren's case, it seems it was, since Sovereign was in favor of what Saren wanted to do. In TIM's case, the reapers were against it.

It was more like Sovereign didn't care. Also it showed Saren never thought he was indoctrinated, someone like that is even easier to control. TIMs experiments were stopped because he'd gone too far and came too close.

[Eryri]

Ausnuk wrote...

Bioware you really had a winner with the first ending. It must of been so clear to you. I truly wished all the gamers understood what you were attempting to do. You went to a new place in gaming history, so close you couldn't see any chance of failure. You broke new ground, you made me the gamer experience what indoctrination is. I the gamer am being broken it's so clear I sometimes can not believe it. 

snip

My true fear is you may be disillusioned by all this and cut your losses

PLEASE don't lose hope, there are actually many of us who believe in what you did. Push on, hope is what you created for Shepard/Gamer in this trilogy. That is why you should continue and bring out the end you were meant to.

snip

Brilliant Bioware. Dont stop now you are so close."

Very well put. Being optimistic here for a minute, I think Bioware do realise the huge demand for IT to be realised in dlc. The sheer length of this thread, and the overwhelmingly positive response to Chris Priestly's poll on the Hold the Line site should tell them that.

Modifié par Eryri, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:20 .

[Lokanaiya]

Don't forget the Reapers only stopped TIM when he was making some progress. Before that, Cerberus was making lots of trouble for you and everybody else against the Reapers, which the Reapers were OK with and probably even encouraged. My theory is that if TIM really was in control of himself and still wanting to control the Reapers, he'd have joined you and waited until you finished the Crucible to steal it and use it to control the Reapers. But since this cycle provides a much bigger challenge than usual because of reverse-engineered tech from Sovereign and Shepard, what the Reapers need now in order to minimize their losses isn't a double agent, it's another thing for Shepard and everybody else to fight, since Cerberus is tying up Shepard and his allies when they could be destroying Reapers.

[Ageless Face]

But why would the reapers want to encourage TIM and cerberus to control the reapers? Why would they get TIM to think he can control the reapers, and not try to do something for their benefiets, or something that wouldn't intefere with their plans?

BTW, TIM didn't know the Crucible can control the reapers. Not more than Shepard knew, at least. No one knew what exactly the Crucible will do. I think.

[shepdog77]

Still going strong in here I see. 

Modifié par shepdog77, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .

[MegumiAzusa]

They can't do that much without using too much pressure. With not interfering with TIM like the not interfering with Saren the subjects still believe they are in control.

[RavenEyry]

HagarIshay wrote...

But why would the reapers want to encourage TIM and cerberus to control the reapers? Why would they get TIM to think he can control the reapers, and not try to do something for their benefiets, or something that wouldn't intefere with their plans?

He's not interfering with their plans. Cerberus troops keep attacking alliance bases and generally disrupting the war effort against the reapers. His quest for control is causing more harm than good basically, and they know he'll never control them (or there ego says he can't anyway).

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

HagarIshay wrote...

But why would the reapers want to encourage TIM and cerberus to control the reapers? Why would they get TIM to think he can control the reapers, and not try to do something for their benefiets, or something that wouldn't intefere with their plans?

BTW, TIM didn't know the Crucible can control the reapers. Not more than Shepard knew, at least. No one knew what exactly the Crucible will do. I think.

Cerberus do several things which do nothing but aid the Reapers from what we can see. TIM remaining steadfast in his pursuit is merely a foil put over his own eyes even as the Reapers manipulate him to their advantage the way I see it.

They try to kill Eve which would have prevented the Genophage from beeing cured. That would have weakened our fight without any obvoius benefits to Cerberus.

They capture a cannon on Tuchanka to use it to punch a hole for one of their ships to land on Tuchanka. For what purpose, never really explained.

They try to detonate the Turian bomb on Tuchanka, again what would Cerberus gain from this? The Reapers on the other hand.

The coup on the Citadel. While it makes sense knowing what the Catalyst is, the ones who stood to benefit the most from the Councils death and the fall of the Citadel would be the Reapers.

That is just the things i remember of the top of my head.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:46 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

HagarIshay wrote...

Last question on subject. TIM was never an agent of the reapers. In fact, the reapers seemed to want to destroy sanctuary, showing they don't really support being controlled. TIM says that the reapers are still his enemies. So why show TIM as the indoctrinated part of Shepard, if he was never seem to be indoctrinated until this point, (and if it was all a hallucination in the first place, most likely that TIM is not indoctrinated as far as we know)?

A thing to remember is taht even if TIM is indoctrinated all of his scientists are not, they can still make weapons that work against the Reapers such as the Husk control signal on Sanctuary.

While TIM might talk about it now only beeing a matter of scale to control the Reapers (a delusion if there ever was one) there is little chance he will ever reach that goal.

However a signal controlling Husks could still be an annoyance to the Reapers should it fall into Shepards hands.

[NomTheBurritos]

Hey guys.
I've been following the thread for a while now, trying to put pieces together and understand the theory, but I can't help myself not to ask a few questions that I hope you can discuss or answer.
If I understand things right, Shep's fighting the indoctrination from the moment he's hit by Harby's beam. Everything that happens to the moment when he wakes up (if EMS was high enough and D ending was chosen) is an illusion, a sort of dream. But I can't help but wonder; when he finally wakes up, what do you think would happen then?
There is also the second question, which touches the subject of EC and the additional scenes presented after Shepard makes his choice (in the supposed "indoctrination dream") in the Citadel.
Do you think that too is Shepard's vision of things, or can someone explain how that'd work..? I'm trying to piece this together as it would seem quite....useless of BW, to put those scenes only to say "It was all a hallucination/dream/illusion", and "then the fella woke up...and left a plothole/cliffhanger right there for people to speculate about".
I ask the questions because I am myself trying to understand what the ending was all about, if it should be taken literally (aka everything that happened was true, weird coincidence with piles of bodies, it was TIM who controlled both Anderson and Shep and the latter was never indoctrinated, Catalyst is a little noisy AI that presents solutions to Shep's problem, and Shepard wakes up somewhere, pressumably Citadel or in the place where the beam stood..and the aftermath depends on your choce of ending) or that as this theory suggests, he is fighting his way from the said indoctrination and the only way for him to break loose is to choose the D ending and have high enough EMS to wake up safe and sound. This backs away to the first question, yet again, of what could/would happen when Shep wakes up.
All explenation is appriceated :3

[WandySilva]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Last question on subject. TIM was never an agent of the reapers. In fact, the reapers seemed to want to destroy sanctuary, showing they don't really support being controlled. TIM says that the reapers are still his enemies. So why show TIM as the indoctrinated part of Shepard, if he was never seem to be indoctrinated until this point, (and if it was all a hallucination in the first place, most likely that TIM is not indoctrinated as far as we know)?

A thing to remember is taht even if TIM is indoctrinated all of his scientists are not, they can still make weapons that work against the Reapers such as the Husk control signal on Sanctuary.

While TIM might talk about it now only beeing a matter of scale to control the Reapers (a delusion if there ever was one) there is little chance he will ever reach that goal.

However a signal controlling Husks could still be an annoyance to the Reapers should it fall into Shepards hands.

It could also be that TIM wasnt fully indoctrinated at this point, just under their influence.
We know Saren wasnt fully indoctrinated until late in the game when he took the reaper implants. It's possible that TIM's ambitions to control were fighting his indoctrination.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, I just noticed that when Hackett contacts you on the Citadel right after Anderson "dies" you can hear an echo in Shepard's voice. The same echo, I think, that you hear in the room with Star-Brat.

Oh, now THIS is interesting.  In the background of Shepard's echo, I can hear part of the Carnifex's sound.  Weird.

Actually, I might just be crazy.  It would be nice if someone else could listen and confirm or deny.

Since it seems that nobody answered this post I will .

I watched this part and I definitely hear the echo. It is not as pronounced as it is in the decision chamber but that could possibly show the progression of Indoctrination. I am not sure what you meant by the carnifex sound but there was the "bang bang bang" sound I heard when shooting the Destroy tube (the echo-y explosion noise).

[WandySilva]

NomTheBurritos wrote...

Hey guys.
I've been following the thread for a while now, trying to put pieces together and understand the theory, but I can't help myself not to ask a few questions that I hope you can discuss or answer.
If I understand things right, Shep's fighting the indoctrination from the moment he's hit by Harby's beam. Everything that happens to the moment when he wakes up (if EMS was high enough and D ending was chosen) is an illusion, a sort of dream. But I can't help but wonder; when he finally wakes up, what do you think would happen then?
There is also the second question, which touches the subject of EC and the additional scenes presented after Shepard makes his choice (in the supposed "indoctrination dream") in the Citadel.
Do you think that too is Shepard's vision of things, or can someone explain how that'd work..? I'm trying to piece this together as it would seem quite....useless of BW, to put those scenes only to say "It was all a hallucination/dream/illusion", and "then the fella woke up...and left a plothole/cliffhanger right there for people to speculate about".
I ask the questions because I am myself trying to understand what the ending was all about, if it should be taken literally (aka everything that happened was true, weird coincidence with piles of bodies, it was TIM who controlled both Anderson and Shep and the latter was never indoctrinated, Catalyst is a little noisy AI that presents solutions to Shep's problem, and Shepard wakes up somewhere, pressumably Citadel or in the place where the beam stood..and the aftermath depends on your choce of ending) or that as this theory suggests, he is fighting his way from the said indoctrination and the only way for him to break loose is to choose the D ending and have high enough EMS to wake up safe and sound. This backs away to the first question, yet again, of what could/would happen when Shep wakes up.
All explenation is appriceated :3

According to most versions of IT, The Scenes at the end are shepards own dreams of his idea of how his descision affected the universe.
As for the rest of the ending, i refer you to the Geth consensus mission. Legion tells you what you are seeing is your mind making sense of what is going on (in essence), this can be applied here, the TIM encounter being shepards projection of fighting off indocrination in his own mind, and the star child scenario being Harbinger's last attempt to break shepard, by offering the same gifts offered to your enemies, TIM and Saren (which they took).
If IT is to be believed, we Can assume that it was biowares intent to make the final battle of the  game (in its current state) a battle not with Commander Shepard, but with US, the player battling against the single most deadly foe in the series, Indocrination.
In essense, will you fall victim to the same lies and dillusions as your enemies, or will you stay the course?

[paxxton]

This deserves a bump.

smokingotter1 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

50 years from now Smokingotter dies of natural causes, accends to heaven meets god.

Smokingotter: "I'm dead?!"

God: "yes now is the time to tell you the secret of life."

Smokingotter: "I've been waiting for this moment my entire otter life, what is the secret of life?!"

God: "Anderson was born in London."

Ok you know how "the narwhal bacons at midnight" is official code for a redditor. I'm calling "Anderson was born in London" as official code for ITer and ME fan.

(Puts on otter pope hat, throws otter holy water on moniter) It is and forever shall be.

Modifié par paxxton, 29 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .

[RavenEyry]

Won't that upset the trolls that keep throwing the phrase around thinking it's funny?

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

Won't that upset the trolls that keep throwing the phrase around thinking it's funny?

Nah. What matters is that it'll make ITists happy.
Actually, do the trolls use this phrase at all?

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

Nah. What matters is that it'll make ITists happy.
Actually, do the trolls use this phrase at all?

Yeah, every thread that asks a logical question will have at least one person answer "because Anderson was born in London" and never post again. "Because reaper IFF" is another one to look out for. I don't want people to mistake these guys for ITers.

[Rosewind]

wow it really is slow for a weekend

Edit: YAY 2200!! what so fun about this year....

Modifié par Rosewind, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:01 .

[RavenEyry]

Rosewind wrote...

wow it really is slow for a weekend

I blame MP. I appear to be the only person who doesn't play.