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[DJBare]

Rifneno wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Harbinger is the original race

I'll take "things with no credible evidence of" for 500, Alex.

Need to read the books, I have, I'm not saying it as a fact, it's just that Harbinger has been at the center of it all since ME2, in this case I'm definitely put two and two togther and coming up with ?

[SS2Dante]

americanidiot53 wrote...

I'm not sure how much CleverNoob's documentary is valued here in the forums as being valid, but I just watched it and agreed with most of it (I am an IT supporter; there's simply no other way to make sense of the ending). However, I came up with a couple questions and possible flaws. I am by nature a skeptic even about the things I believe, so I need some pretty solid proof to completely take something on as my own belief.

I know there's a wall of text below, but I would greatly appreciate it if I got some of these questions answered or some rebuttals against my own rebuttals. Anyways. Please note again that I have nothing against IT and appreciate it; I just have some questions needing answering.

Thanks!
Some clarification- So did Harbinger actually leave or is this taking place in Shephard’s mind? If it’s taking place in Shephard’s mind, why would he think Harbinger would leave? If you say the Reapers caused Shepard to think Harbinger was leaving for the “ray of hope” that Shepard might feel, then the Reapers are in control of his mind, defeating your earlier claim that Shepard is not actually indoctrinated.Dream sounds- The “dream-like” noises after Shepard gets up could just be the developer’s attempt to demonstrate the hearing loss that Shepard went through after being hit by the beam. Especially given the higher pitch, the sounds resemble more of a “ringing” than any “dream-like” sounds.Reaper and Dream Sounds- The reaper growl is heard in many places by other people. For example, the opening sequence with all the men and women on the ground and the scene on Thessia with the Reaper in the background both feature the Reaper growls. Simply put, the growls in the dream sequences are simply in the back of Shepard's mind while he dreams.Fade-out sequences- White light is merely a fade-out technique, and given that both situations (the dream and the laser beam) featured some form of produced light (fire and laser respectively), it makes sense to game developers as the white light fade out brings the player into Shepard’s shoes (i.e. being blinded and having the whole “slow-down, life flash before your eyes” moment). If you look more closely at the whole game, many things are reused (i.e. big things like mission structure: go to planet, meet comrade, make final decision, leave planet). These reused transition screens are more likely a development of lazy game design than anything else. It’s possible that there was some grand scheme, but unlikely when looking at the game as a whole.Blurry horizon on the ground in front of the beam- Shephard could very well be blinded by the light and energy of intensity of Harbinger’s laser. However, I like the pulsating ambient point though. I had never thought of that before and agree that potentially it could mean something. Could have something to do with the effects of Harbinger’s laser on Shepard’s eyesight though, too. If they really were dead bodies, why not give them texture instead of just overlaying them on a smooth surface? If anything, this goes to show that Bioware was at least a little lazy in their last efforts of the game, if they weren’t rushed. I agree that this is one of your strong points (and this is kind of a weak refutation), but I’m curious as to why they would abandon the 3D models outside of the beam.Anderson’s entry- How do you know that there weren’t other entrances around the citadel. When exiting the dark red hallway, the player sees the curvature of the room, and it’s possible that Anderson was teleported somewhere else on the curvature.Anderson could have been referring to the moving panels of electricity as the “moving walls.” This one is a bit of a stretch, but I’ll throw it out there anyway.Why would the Reapers make the Keepers be alive in Shepard’s hallucination? Why even include them?1M1 Theory- If Shepard remembers those minute of details, then why doesn’t he remember the main room of the citadel or other MAJOR aspects of the Citadel?Clarification question- I’ve never been quite sure why Anderson seemed to wobble on his feet while standing. Was the Illusive Man in control of both of Shepard and his bodies?Bullet Hole from Marauder Shields- Why does Shepard’s armor not show wear and tear most of the time? Simply put, Bioware throughout all three Mass Effect games has never done something along the lines of the Batman “Arkham” games and had the main characters suit get slowly tattered. It makes no sense for them to begin that trend in the last 15 minutes of the game. I will concede, however, that this shot from Marauder Shields is much more prominent than any other shots that Shepard has endured.If Shepard is naturally inquisitive, then why does he not ask questions in his dream? If he’s not fully indoctrinated and the catalyst sequence is just a hallucination, wouldn’t he still ask questions given that his mind is still under his own control?How is Shepard aware of what the colors mean? That’s a player thing. I highly doubt Shepard sees “blue” as a good color and “red” as a bad color. If we are talking about the players, then we have to think a little bit more. I highly doubt players would simply make a decision because of color coordination in the different sectors of the Crucible. This is the final choice, and it’s easy for the player to notice this because of the music and the massive consequences of each choice. MOST players would think critically about their options and pick the one that makes sense to their Shepard (i.e. hopefully “Destroy”). It is highly unlikely to say that Bioware would institute a color discord in order to “fool” their players about which ending to pick.The developers had a different ending planned (dark matter, etc.). How can we take all the “hints” displayed in the past two games as hints if the intended ending wasn’t actually used?[/list][/b]

Don't have time to address your points (others will don't worry) but I will say that though the documentary is well made, it's got a lot of problems, and gets a lot of things about with IT. The shorter video by is better.

[BatmanTurian]

Rifneno wrote...

Domanese wrote...

Im going with strict since they did say there would be a zero tolerance policy. Is it not hard to imagine that it would not apply to complete vulgarity?

Definitely not. I can think of more than one troll that both posted some really offensive crap and were reported by a multitude of people only to see them back a little bit later still stirring up trouble. They aren't super-strict, no matter what that pop-up says. They wrote that because some people trolled a Bioware employee off Twitter. As in, trolled them until they left the site completely.

On the bright side, maybe that last round of reports did some good. I won't say its name as it might appear like Bloody Mary, but you-know-who hasn't been seen since "joking" about how we should commit mass suicide after IT is disproven. Which was 3 days ago.

lol I reported them for that too! I thought I was the only one...

[Arian Dynas]

Uncle Jo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

This is one of my theories, I'm guessing that only Harbinger is not, all other reapers are under his control despite "each a nation"
I explained somewhere else, if the essence of each race is kept in those reaper hulls then they would need remain indoctrinated otherwise they would rebel against their new form.

Very interesting... But if Harbinger is not indoctrinated then what is he made of ? Is he actually the original Indoctrination device? I mean he's also a "nation" and partly organic, or am I wrong?

There's that question again...

My theory;

It seems I need to drag out my own theory on the Reapers again, for the benefit of this thread, and for great justice.

Here is their beginning, in my humble opinion;

Millions of years ago, the evil alien lord Xenu..

Wait, wrong one. *pulls out the disc and snaps it in half* damn Scientologists...

Sorry about that;

Millions of years ago, when the Milky Way was still young, a species of carnivores arose to sentience, they were intelligent, murderously so, being far more canny than they prey they hunted. 

As they evolved, they developed a natural talent for both science, and war. They conquered their own planet, setting out into the Milky Way in their newly made ships, bristling with horrifying technology.

Planet after planet fell to them, as their empire grew, they mastered yet more wicked sciences, learning how to manipulate the minds of their enemies, how to render down one thing they had in surplus, bodies, into useable building material, they mastered use of the Mass Effect, discovered quantum shielding, and created the first Mass Relays to facillitate speedy travel from one end of their empire to another.

Soon they drew the attention of another, equally powerful foe, a species of insectoid aliens, known for their impressive technical skills, and their abilty as engineers, holding one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy.

The two species clashed with one another, horrifying weapons of war being designed and stolen by each, kinetic accelerator cannons finding themselves replaced with heat generating weapons, firing channels of superaccelerated liquid metal, deep cover agents being created from once trusted friends, forces turning on oneanother, fighters running kamikazi runs at light speed into the sides of powerful dreadnoughts and capital ships, a war that left scars on every world they fought, and eventually lost.

This dark race that arose to face their insectiod enemies was eventually pushed back to their homeworld, a dying, slowly withering rock, orbiting a dying star, a star due to finally die in a massive conflagration that will take with it, it's stony children, including this homeworld.

Desperation sets in, this violent race, desiring to see the continued existence of their species begins work on a method of saving their future.

Soon they realize all their hopes are for naught, there is no possible way for them to save themselves, they simply do not have the means to transport sufficient numbers of their population offworld, to survive  the vengeance of their enemies.

Then, one brilliant mind comes upon a soloution. Space and resources preclude the body from traveling, but nothing at all precludes the mind from doing so.

Their hope rekindled, they begin work upon the refit of the greatest of their flagships, turning it into the mightiest ship ever seen, a monster nearly three kilometers in length,  a suitable chariot for their species' collective intellect.

They incorporate their mightiest weapons, their most efficient and powerful kinetic barriers and engines, even developing an entirely new form of engine, creating areas of mass free space their flagship will "fall into" they pour all their resources into it, and find them insufficient.

They have run out of building materials.

But, not to be stopped, one of their most brilliant military minds comes to two realizations;

One, they won't need their bodies if they are transporting their minds with the ship, hence they can easily render them down for more building materials needed for the mind storage core.

And two, the ship, then if deprived of the crew needed to help provide building materials, will need someone to crew her, and if they should be attacked, or need to take a world to form their new homeworld, they will need groundtroops, an army.

They turn again to their grim technologies, and find the answer already prepared for them, they turn to their mental manipulation equipment, making it more efficient, and developing new, more effective ways to manipulate the body, as well as the mind, for they long ago mastered the technique of forging flesh as easily as metal.

Soon their great work is to be completed, they near the birth of the great ship that shall be the salvation of their race, taking them and their collective minds far from their dying home. The last minds are transferred into the completed ship, with their greatest military mind, whom is also their ruler, being the last to "board".

He joins his mind to the rest, and then something goes horribly wrong. Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become.

This new Harbinger, as it calls itself, first attacks their old enemies, causing great harm and massive damage before being driven off, nearly destroyed in it's own attempt, leading it to realize, that despite it's perfection, it remains subject to being killed. Therfore, it requires allies. The Harbinger attacks the remains of several of the old empire's enemies, forming new capital ships of the "worthy" enemies, ones as diverse, intellectual, and strong as its own progenitors, while lesser enemies lose their individuality to become Destroyers, and the animals of these broken planets, rather than being left to simply rot and go to waste, are rendered down into becoming the unintelligent Processing Ships and Troop Transports piloted by other, more worthy ships. 

Soon, even their greatest enemy, the insectoid species of engineers falls to their might, the first cycle having completed.

When at this point, the Harbinger comes to a realization. It has scoured the galaxy clean of advanced life, it could destroy all organic life now if it wished.

But that would deny future races the chance at perfection attained by it and it's compatriots. It makes a descision, they will allow organic life to thrive for a time, until it achives greatness as it's own species did, before they return and capture it in the apex of it's greatness, storing it in their new form, making way for other species to join their ranks, but they will need a method of control, a way to ensure their victory before the war has already begun, so that their technology might evolve along paths they understand and know, therefore they create the Mass Relay network, and the Citadel, taking their greatest enemy and repurposing them into the "Keepers" of this new Citadel, so that it's secrets may not be found, and as a final insult to the foe whom nearly drove them to extinction. Every cycle they extend their understanding with the great discoveries of the next species to join them, stripping worlds of their technology to study and understand, learning more of the universe, and ensuring they are prepared for yet more technologies designed by these younger races. They choose to leave behind one of the mightiest of their number, the second of their kind, formed by the Harbinger, the one known as Nazara, to be their vanguard in the next cycle, making the case that the second strongest of their number should be the first strike they make.

And thus, the new "Reapers" begin to gather in dark space, waiting for their crop of flesh to arise anew.  

[Uncle Jo]

SS2Dante wrote...


The subs change him to "Admiral Anderson" when he's laying out the battle plans in london HQ (that segment where you talk with each squadmate). Then it goes back and forth between that and normal "Anderson"

Can't remember about the London HQ. I've played (shortly) now the beginning of ME3 and the Citadel 2 : in the first one he's referred as Anderson, on the Citadel as Admiral Anderson (even in french).

[McGrzegorz]

DJBare wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

No way they planned the IT.  If they did, they wouldn't need to be calling all the voice actors/actresses back.  It would have been finished, and ready to go.  They never would have let things get this bad.

I'll bet you they did plan it, I'd also bet they expected this backlash, there is no way in this universe that ending got released without someone at Bioware saying "WTF is this!!"; not a hope, nada, no way in hell,I just cannot imagine after the entire series they would let there flag ship game go out with a whimper, no chance.

100% agree. I strongly believe that IT in some form will be part of the EC. Some of you already proposed good ideas:

- Crucible as a trap or huge and "rapid" IT device
- Hackett or Coat (as traitors/ indoctrinated sleeping agents)
- IT device/artifact aboard Normandy
- Continuation of Dark Energy plot

... buy I also think there will be a twist that we don't expect at all...

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Sure, no problem. So what else is new beside the Carnifex turning into a predator?

Well, like you said the Carnifex/Predator was the major discovery of today. Also a long discussion with some people who didn't believe the IT being even possible,  a debate about the Crucible and its role and an amazing compilation of all the IT-clues gathered till now (it's from Parabolee77 and here is the link, if you didn't already read it : masseffectindoctrination.blogspot.com/)

Haha some of those images came from my video. Double nice!

Also, isn't Anderson always Admiral Anderson?

The subtitles always call him simply "Anderson" except at the end.

Hmm. Never noticed. Perhaps it's because he's not in the shot. They may have done this for new players who don't know Anderson's smooth voice.

I just now played the very beginning when him and Hacket talk about not having much time left before the reapers arrive and and it still says "Anderson". The interesting thing is that it says "Admiral Hacket" and then just "Anderson"... strange details.

[BatmanTurian]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

This is one of my theories, I'm guessing that only Harbinger is not, all other reapers are under his control despite "each a nation"
I explained somewhere else, if the essence of each race is kept in those reaper hulls then they would need remain indoctrinated otherwise they would rebel against their new form.

Very interesting... But if Harbinger is not indoctrinated then what is he made of ? Is he actually the original Indoctrination device? I mean he's also a "nation" and partly organic, or am I wrong?

There's that question again...

My theory;

*snip*

Geez, you never cease to amaze me. That is perfect.

[DJBare]

Arian Dynas wrote...
*Interesting theory*

But I'm trying to figure out, are you saying the rachni were the aggressors?, since memory is passed on genetically by rachni then they would know the truth, if they are the aggressors then they have a reason not to say anything, but if not the aggressors then why did the queen not say anything to Shepard?

[Jadebaby]

As if they closed the old 1 after 2286 pages! and i read the posts, apart from 1 individual talking about his genitalia, it was still well on-topic!

Very evil Mr. Priestly...

Bak on topic myself, i will believe in IDT until the EC dlc... In a sea of plotholes and unanswered questions... IDT is the only thing that makes sense....

[Bill Casey]

americanidiot53 wrote...

I highly doubt players would simply make a decision because of color coordination in the different sectors of the Crucible.

You clearly haven't spent enough time on Youtube...

[Jadebaby]

Btw DJBare, i have always thought ur sig was what bioware wanted to achieve but struggled to phrase it so simply, kudos!

[BatmanTurian]

DJBare wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
*Interesting theory*

But I'm trying to figure out, are you saying the rachni were the aggressors?, since memory is passed on genetically by rachni then they would know the truth, if they are the aggressors then they have a reason not to say anything, but if not the aggressors then why did the queen not say anything to Shepard?

He means the Keepers, not the Rachni!! That's why it's awesome.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 15 mai 2012 - 02:12 .

[hoodaticus]

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.

[BatmanTurian]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

As if they closed the old 1 after 2286 pages! and i read the posts, apart from 1 individual talking about his genitalia, it was still well on-topic!

Very evil Mr. Priestly...

Bak on topic myself, i will believe in IDT until the EC dlc... In a sea of plotholes and unanswered questions... IDT is the only thing that makes sense....

That individual should be banned permanently, since he brags about his trolling all over his profile. By his picture, he looks like an emoteen. Fits the immaturity.

[EpyonX3]

I think the whole "each a nation" thing refers to how many active programs make up a single reaper.

There are so many of them in one that it's like having a nation of individuals running at one time. Remember Legion says a single thought from a reaper was overwhelming. This is coming from a machine that can listen to thousands of Geth, or more, at once.

[BatmanTurian]

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.

I'm pretty sure he's not. If we do that we'll have totally gone overboard. We might as well go full crazy and say Shepard got mindscrewed on Eden Prime in ME 1 and turned into a husk and just lived out the last few games in his head if we do that.

[EpyonX3]

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.

What? Where did you get this from? Thane fights Kai Leng. He's also referenced in plenty of places by people who aren't hallucinations.

[byne]

EpyonX3 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.

What? Where did you get this from? Thane fights Kai Leng. He's also referenced in plenty of places by people who aren't hallucinations.

I figured he's just joking. A lot of people really dont like Kai Leng

[americanidiot53]

EpyonX3 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.

What? Where did you get this from? Thane fights Kai Leng. He's also referenced in plenty of places by people who aren't hallucinations.

I'm pretty sure it was a joke...

[Arian Dynas]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

As if they closed the old 1 after 2286 pages! and i read the posts, apart from 1 individual talking about his genitalia, it was still well on-topic!

Very evil Mr. Priestly...

Bak on topic myself, i will believe in IDT until the EC dlc... In a sea of plotholes and unanswered questions... IDT is the only thing that makes sense....

That individual should be banned permanently, since he brags about his trolling all over his profile. By his picture, he looks like an emoteen. Fits the immaturity.

He disgusts me as well. He's the forum equivalent of that obnoxious little pissant kid on the beach who spends his time knocking down sandcastles and laughing about it.

[byne]

Arian Dynas wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

As if they closed the old 1 after 2286 pages! and i read the posts, apart from 1 individual talking about his genitalia, it was still well on-topic!

Very evil Mr. Priestly...

Bak on topic myself, i will believe in IDT until the EC dlc... In a sea of plotholes and unanswered questions... IDT is the only thing that makes sense....

That individual should be banned permanently, since he brags about his trolling all over his profile. By his picture, he looks like an emoteen. Fits the immaturity.

He disgusts me as well. He's the forum equivalent of that obnoxious little pissant kid on the beach who spends his time knocking down sandcastles and laughing about it.

So lets stop talking about him then?

[darkiddd]

I don't know if this is important or if it's been said earlier but anyway.

I've realized that after Shepard is hit by harbinger's beam you can see in the surroundings a wind effect. Now it is true there was wind before being hit by harbinger but it wasn't so strong and so evident. This effect of wind when Shepard gets up is the same one used on ME2 Arrival dlc when you confront harbinger outside the installations of the asteroid. It's at the very least intriguing the same effect appears post beam so strongly when this time it's obvious you are not travelling at great speeds and shepard has just seen Harbinger since Arrival.

Maybe another hint that it is a dream.

[hoodaticus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

As if they closed the old 1 after 2286 pages! and i read the posts, apart from 1 individual talking about his genitalia, it was still well on-topic!

Very evil Mr. Priestly...

Bak on topic myself, i will believe in IDT until the EC dlc... In a sea of plotholes and unanswered questions... IDT is the only thing that makes sense....

That individual should be banned permanently, since he brags about his trolling all over his profile. By his picture, he looks like an emoteen. Fits the immaturity.

He disgusts me as well. He's the forum equivalent of that obnoxious little pissant kid on the beach who spends his time knocking down sandcastles and laughing about it.

I refer to their ilk as BlogHerpes.

[DJBare]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Btw DJBare, i have always thought ur sig was what bioware wanted to achieve but struggled to phrase it so simply, kudos!

Hey, they got me on my first play through, I picked synthesis without considering the implications and I wanted to save EDI and the geth, so from my perspective Bioware got me good, and they did a good job, I was even uncomfortable with synthesis, yet went along with it(the very essence of being indoctrinated.), if this was Biowares intention, then I have to say well played Bioware.