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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#576
EpyonX3

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BatmanTurian wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.


I'm pretty sure he's not. If we do that we'll have totally gone overboard. We might as well go full crazy and say Shepard got mindscrewed on Eden Prime in ME 1 and turned into a husk and just lived out the last few games in his head if we do that.


Imagine Shepard waking up in a mental hospital after a few years only to learn it was all a dram and the huge ship that was supposed to be Sovereign was actually a Geth ship and there was not reaper invasion.

#577
EpyonX3

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byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.


What? Where did you get this from? Thane fights Kai Leng. He's also referenced in plenty of places by people who aren't hallucinations.


I figured he's just joking. A lot of people really dont like Kai Leng


I see. It's hard to tell.

#578
hoodaticus

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EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

We need to work it in to IT that Kai Leng is also a hallucination.


What? Where did you get this from? Thane fights Kai Leng. He's also referenced in plenty of places by people who aren't hallucinations.


I figured he's just joking. A lot of people really dont like Kai Leng


I see. It's hard to tell.

I just desperately want him gone.  But yeah, it has no place in IT.

#579
Jadebaby

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

This is one of my theories, I'm guessing that only Harbinger is not, all other reapers are under his control despite "each a nation"
I explained somewhere else, if the essence of each race is kept in those reaper hulls then they would need remain indoctrinated otherwise they would rebel against their new form.


Very interesting... But if Harbinger is not indoctrinated then what is he made of ? Is he actually the original Indoctrination device? I mean he's also a "nation" and partly organic, or am I wrong?


There's that question again...

My theory;


snip* 


It's not often I read such long posts, but... that... was... insane!!!

I only have but 1 question left.....

Why aren't you a Mass Effect lead writer!?

Goddamit that was brilliant!! Image IPB I don't think Mac Walters could have done it better himself.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 15 mai 2012 - 02:31 .


#580
grey_wind

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Arian Dynas wrote...

It seems I need to drag out my own theory on the Reapers again, for the benefit of this thread, and for great justice.

Here is their beginning, in my humble opinion;

Millions of years ago, the evil alien lord Xenu..

Wait, wrong one. *pulls out the disc and snaps it in half* damn Scientologists...

Sorry about that;

Millions of years ago, when the Milky Way was still young, a species of carnivores arose to sentience, they were intelligent, murderously so, being far more canny than they prey they hunted. 

As they evolved, they developed a natural talent for both science, and war. They conquered their own planet, setting out into the Milky Way in their newly made ships, bristling with horrifying technology.

Planet after planet fell to them, as their empire grew, they mastered yet more wicked sciences, learning how to manipulate the minds of their enemies, how to render down one thing they had in surplus, bodies, into useable building material, they mastered use of the Mass Effect, discovered quantum shielding, and created the first Mass Relays to facillitate speedy travel from one end of their empire to another.

Soon they drew the attention of another, equally powerful foe, a species of insectoid aliens, known for their impressive technical skills, and their abilty as engineers, holding one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy.

The two species clashed with one another, horrifying weapons of war being designed and stolen by each, kinetic accelerator cannons finding themselves replaced with heat generating weapons, firing channels of superaccelerated liquid metal, deep cover agents being created from once trusted friends, forces turning on oneanother, fighters running kamikazi runs at light speed into the sides of powerful dreadnoughts and capital ships, a war that left scars on every world they fought, and eventually lost.

This dark race that arose to face their insectiod enemies was eventually pushed back to their homeworld, a dying, slowly withering rock, orbiting a dying star, a star due to finally die in a massive conflagration that will take with it, it's stony children, including this homeworld.

Desperation sets in, this violent race, desiring to see the continued existence of their species begins work on a method of saving their future.

Soon they realize all their hopes are for naught, there is no possible way for them to save themselves, they simply do not have the means to transport sufficient numbers of their population offworld, to survive  the vengeance of their enemies.

Then, one brilliant mind comes upon a soloution. Space and resources preclude the body from traveling, but nothing at all precludes the mind from doing so.

Their hope rekindled, they begin work upon the refit of the greatest of their flagships, turning it into the mightiest ship ever seen, a monster nearly three kilometers in length,  a suitable chariot for their species' collective intellect.

They incorporate their mightiest weapons, their most efficient and powerful kinetic barriers and engines, even developing an entirely new form of engine, creating areas of mass free space their flagship will "fall into" they pour all their resources into it, and find them insufficient.

They have run out of building materials.

But, not to be stopped, one of their most brilliant military minds comes to two realizations;

One, they won't need their bodies if they are transporting their minds with the ship, hence they can easily render them down for more building materials needed for the mind storage core.

And two, the ship, then if deprived of the crew needed to help provide building materials, will need someone to crew her, and if they should be attacked, or need to take a world to form their new homeworld, they will need groundtroops, an army.

They turn again to their grim technologies, and find the answer already prepared for them, they turn to their mental manipulation equipment, making it more efficient, and developing new, more effective ways to manipulate the body, as well as the mind, for they long ago mastered the technique of forging flesh as easily as metal.

Soon their great work is to be completed, they near the birth of the great ship that shall be the salvation of their race, taking them and their collective minds far from their dying home. The last minds are transferred into the completed ship, with their greatest military mind, whom is also their ruler, being the last to "board".

He joins his mind to the rest, and then something goes horribly wrong. Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become.

This new Harbinger, as it calls itself, first attacks their old enemies, causing great harm and massive damage before being driven off, nearly destroyed in it's own attempt, leading it to realize, that despite it's perfection, it remains subject to being killed. Therfore, it requires allies. The Harbinger attacks the remains of several of the old empire's enemies, forming new capital ships of the "worthy" enemies, ones as diverse, intellectual, and strong as its own progenitors, while lesser enemies lose their individuality to become Destroyers, and the animals of these broken planets, rather than being left to simply rot and go to waste, are rendered down into becoming the unintelligent Processing Ships and Troop Transports piloted by other, more worthy ships. 

Soon, even their greatest enemy, the insectoid species of engineers falls to their might, the first cycle having completed.

When at this point, the Harbinger comes to a realization. It has scoured the galaxy clean of advanced life, it could destroy all organic life now if it wished.

But that would deny future races the chance at perfection attained by it and it's compatriots. It makes a descision, they will allow organic life to thrive for a time, until it achives greatness as it's own species did, before they return and capture it in the apex of it's greatness, storing it in their new form, making way for other species to join their ranks, but they will need a method of control, a way to ensure their victory before the war has already begun, so that their technology might evolve along paths they understand and know, therefore they create the Mass Relay network, and the Citadel, taking their greatest enemy and repurposing them into the "Keepers" of this new Citadel, so that it's secrets may not be found, and as a final insult to the foe whom nearly drove them to extinction. Every cycle they extend their understanding with the great discoveries of the next species to join them, stripping worlds of their technology to study and understand, learning more of the universe, and ensuring they are prepared for yet more technologies designed by these younger races. They choose to leave behind one of the mightiest of their number, the second of their kind, formed by the Harbinger, the one known as Nazara, to be their vanguard in the next cycle, making the case that the second strongest of their number should be the first strike they make.

And thus, the new "Reapers" begin to gather in dark space, waiting for their crop of flesh to arise anew.  


You know, I wouldn't have minded if the Reapers' origins were explained this way. It would have been awesome! 
It would still keep their god complex intact without neutering the threat they pose.

#581
Shermos

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Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.

Modifié par Shermos, 15 mai 2012 - 02:34 .


#582
Arian Dynas

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Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Here's a thought. Actually bother reading what has been said before attempting to apply metaphors that bear no relation at all.

#583
Jadebaby

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Shermos wrote...

Fail.

If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


This quote doesn't fit, if they made it so obvious, it wouldn't be a theory at all. And we wouldn't all be "speculating" like they wanted......

#584
BatmanTurian

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Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.

So you fail at logic, just as everyone who has tried to shoot this down before has done.

EDIT: wow. last line made BOOM! HEADSHOT!  go through my mind. I totally nailed him.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 15 mai 2012 - 02:44 .


#585
hoodaticus

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Here's a thought. Actually bother reading what has been said before attempting to apply metaphors that bear no relation at all.

Seriously.  It's the per se ending interpretation that has Ptolemaic epicycles to justify it.

#586
Arian Dynas

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hoodaticus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Here's a thought. Actually bother reading what has been said before attempting to apply metaphors that bear no relation at all.

Seriously.  It's the per se ending interpretation that has Ptolemaic epicycles to justify it.


In fact, let's have a look at it using his metaphor.

Which is more likely?

That Shepard had a meeting with a heretofore unforeseen godlike being that randomly chose the form of a child he knew of and had been obsessing over for most of the game, survived an explosion that should have killed him 9 or 10 times over, and a dream like sequence that had literally no connection with the rest of the plot, and seemed almost bizzare and random.

Or it was all in the main character's head?

Tell ya what guy, never try to watch Solaris, you won't get the plot.

#587
warfighter 1820

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There's that question again...

My theory;

[quote]

It seems I need to drag out my own theory on the Reapers again, for the benefit of this thread, and for great justice.

Here is their beginning, in my humble opinion;

Millions of years ago, the evil alien lord Xenu..

Wait, wrong one. *pulls out the disc and snaps it in half* damn Scientologists...

Sorry about that;

Millions of years ago, when the Milky Way was still young, a species of carnivores arose to sentience, they were intelligent, murderously so, being far more canny than they prey they hunted. 

As they evolved, they developed a natural talent for both science, and war. They conquered their own planet, setting out into the Milky Way in their newly made ships, bristling with horrifying technology.

Planet after planet fell to them, as their empire grew, they mastered yet more wicked sciences, learning how to manipulate the minds of their enemies, how to render down one thing they had in surplus, bodies, into useable building material, they mastered use of the Mass Effect, discovered quantum shielding, and created the first Mass Relays to facillitate speedy travel from one end of their empire to another.

Soon they drew the attention of another, equally powerful foe, a species of insectoid aliens, known for their impressive technical skills, and their abilty as engineers, holding one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy.

The two species clashed with one another, horrifying weapons of war being designed and stolen by each, kinetic accelerator cannons finding themselves replaced with heat generating weapons, firing channels of superaccelerated liquid metal, deep cover agents being created from once trusted friends, forces turning on oneanother, fighters running kamikazi runs at light speed into the sides of powerful dreadnoughts and capital ships, a war that left scars on every world they fought, and eventually lost.

This dark race that arose to face their insectiod enemies was eventually pushed back to their homeworld, a dying, slowly withering rock, orbiting a dying star, a star due to finally die in a massive conflagration that will take with it, it's stony children, including this homeworld.

Desperation sets in, this violent race, desiring to see the continued existence of their species begins work on a method of saving their future.

Soon they realize all their hopes are for naught, there is no possible way for them to save themselves, they simply do not have the means to transport sufficient numbers of their population offworld, to survive  the vengeance of their enemies.

Then, one brilliant mind comes upon a soloution. Space and resources preclude the body from traveling, but nothing at all precludes the mind from doing so.

Their hope rekindled, they begin work upon the refit of the greatest of their flagships, turning it into the mightiest ship ever seen, a monster nearly three kilometers in length,  a suitable chariot for their species' collective intellect.

They incorporate their mightiest weapons, their most efficient and powerful kinetic barriers and engines, even developing an entirely new form of engine, creating areas of mass free space their flagship will "fall into" they pour all their resources into it, and find them insufficient.

They have run out of building materials.

But, not to be stopped, one of their most brilliant military minds comes to two realizations;

One, they won't need their bodies if they are transporting their minds with the ship, hence they can easily render them down for more building materials needed for the mind storage core.

And two, the ship, then if deprived of the crew needed to help provide building materials, will need someone to crew her, and if they should be attacked, or need to take a world to form their new homeworld, they will need groundtroops, an army.

They turn again to their grim technologies, and find the answer already prepared for them, they turn to their mental manipulation equipment, making it more efficient, and developing new, more effective ways to manipulate the body, as well as the mind, for they long ago mastered the technique of forging flesh as easily as metal.

Soon their great work is to be completed, they near the birth of the great ship that shall be the salvation of their race, taking them and their collective minds far from their dying home. The last minds are transferred into the completed ship, with their greatest military mind, whom is also their ruler, being the last to "board".

He joins his mind to the rest, and then something goes horribly wrong. Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become.

This new Harbinger, as it calls itself, first attacks their old enemies, causing great harm and massive damage before being driven off, nearly destroyed in it's own attempt, leading it to realize, that despite it's perfection, it remains subject to being killed. Therfore, it requires allies. The Harbinger attacks the remains of several of the old empire's enemies, forming new capital ships of the "worthy" enemies, ones as diverse, intellectual, and strong as its own progenitors, while lesser enemies lose their individuality to become Destroyers, and the animals of these broken planets, rather than being left to simply rot and go to waste, are rendered down into becoming the unintelligent Processing Ships and Troop Transports piloted by other, more worthy ships. 

Soon, even their greatest enemy, the insectoid species of engineers falls to their might, the first cycle having completed.

When at this point, the Harbinger comes to a realization. It has scoured the galaxy clean of advanced life, it could destroy all organic life now if it wished.

But that would deny future races the chance at perfection attained by it and it's compatriots. It makes a descision, they will allow organic life to thrive for a time, until it achives greatness as it's own species did, before they return and capture it in the apex of it's greatness, storing it in their new form, making way for other species to join their ranks, but they will need a method of control, a way to ensure their victory before the war has already begun, so that their technology might evolve along paths they understand and know, therefore they create the Mass Relay network, and the Citadel, taking their greatest enemy and repurposing them into the "Keepers" of this new Citadel, so that it's secrets may not be found, and as a final insult to the foe whom nearly drove them to extinction. Every cycle they extend their understanding with the great discoveries of the next species to join them, stripping worlds of their technology to study and understand, learning more of the universe, and ensuring they are prepared for yet more technologies designed by these younger races. They choose to leave behind one of the mightiest of their number, the second of their kind, formed by the Harbinger, the one known as Nazara, to be their vanguard in the next cycle, making the case that the second strongest of their number should be the first strike they make.

And thus, the new "Reapers" begin to gather in dark space, waiting for their crop of flesh to arise anew.  [/quote]

[/quote]
Extremely interesting, but how would the godchild fit into this? Or, if IT, are we assuming that the god child is merely a false construct deployed by harby, used to trick shepard?

#588
BatmanTurian

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warfighter 1820 wrote...

There's that question again...

My theory;

*snip*


Extremely interesting, but how would the godchild fit into this? Or, if IT, are we assuming that the god child is merely a false construct deployed by harby, used to trick shepard?


I'm pretty sure we believe that StarBeiber is Harbinger or just a general projection by the Reapers. More likely Harbinger though, since at the run to the beam he's right there and grazes you with his laser beam.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 15 mai 2012 - 02:50 .


#589
DJBare

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Tell ya what guy, never try to watch Solaris, you won't get the plot.

Agreed *laughs*; I watched it again last night, and some of these guys would have a serious problem with the plot, though it is understandable the game would present some with a problem, it's not like this has ever really be done in games, we've mostly been conditioned to go from point A to point B and win, even in RPG's

Modifié par DJBare, 15 mai 2012 - 02:51 .


#590
Shermos

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.

So you fail at logic, just as everyone who has tried to shoot this down before has done.


The principle is still relevant no matter what you're talking about. Good literary works aren't overly convoluted and self contradictory like IT is. The simplest and most elegant interpretation or theory is usually the best.

If people actually thought more scientifically, literature and the world as a whole would be much improved. And don't try and claim that science takes away from wonder and creativity, because it doesn't. 

Modifié par Shermos, 15 mai 2012 - 02:51 .


#591
BatmanTurian

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Shermos wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.

So you fail at logic, just as everyone who has tried to shoot this down before has done.


The principle is still relevant no matter what you're talking about. Good literary works aren't overly convoluted and self contradictory like IT is. The simplest and most elegant interpretation or theory is usually the best.

If people actually thought more scientifically, literature and the world as a whole would be much improved. And don't try and claim that science takes away from wonder and creativity, because it doesn't. 


You're actually wrong and your statements make me believe you've never analyzed literature in your life. Walk into a book club and spout comparisons to scientific analyzation and see how long they let you stick around. Science has no place in a literary interpretation, even if it's science fiction. So basically, stop doing it. It makes you look like you have book smarts, but no common sense.

#592
dreamgazer

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.


I think we share a brain. 

#593
BatmanTurian

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dreamgazer wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.


I think we share a brain. 


We usually seem to. :D

#594
Shermos

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.

So you fail at logic, just as everyone who has tried to shoot this down before has done.


The principle is still relevant no matter what you're talking about. Good literary works aren't overly convoluted and self contradictory like IT is. The simplest and most elegant interpretation or theory is usually the best.

If people actually thought more scientifically, literature and the world as a whole would be much improved. And don't try and claim that science takes away from wonder and creativity, because it doesn't. 


You're actually wrong and your statements make me believe you've never analyzed literature in your life. Walk into a book club and spout comparisons to scientific analyzation and see how long they let you stick around. Science has no place in a literary interpretation, even if it's science fiction. So basically, stop doing it. It makes you look like you have book smarts, but no common sense.


I know a few people who have been to book clubs (and studied literature I might add) and they'd actually agree with me... The people you're talking about are the kind who write terrible stories which you find in the newsagent, not to mention have a massive pole up their arse.

Consider the Bible. It's terribly written and contradicts itself all over the place. As a work of fiction, it sucks and if it was published today, no serious reviewer would look positively on it.  IT is the same.  

Modifié par Shermos, 15 mai 2012 - 03:05 .


#595
Rifneno

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DJBare wrote...

Need to read the books, I have, I'm not saying it as a fact, it's just that Harbinger has been at the center of it all since ME2, in this case I'm definitely put two and two togther and coming up with ?


When I was putting forth the Harbinger as Prothean Reaper theory the only counterpoint anyone had about its age was quoting the codex in ME3. Which only says he's believed to be the oldest and logically speaking there's absolutely no way they could know that. I haven't read the books but I have read enough synopsises and the like that I can't imagine where any reliable info on Harbinger's origins would come from them. Google turned up nothing when I searched for that name you gave of the species.

hoodaticus wrote...

I just desperately want him gone. But yeah, it has no place in IT.


I can understand that. What were they smoking when they decided it was a good idea to put sword combat in Mass Effect? No, not smoking. You can't get that wasted from smoking. That kind of idea would have to come from something much stronger. So, what were they shooting up when they decided it?

Shermos wrote...

*stuff*


You don't really get fiction, do you?

#596
BatmanTurian

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Shermos wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.

So you fail at logic, just as everyone who has tried to shoot this down before has done.


The principle is still relevant no matter what you're talking about. Good literary works aren't overly convoluted and self contradictory like IT is. The simplest and most elegant interpretation or theory is usually the best.

If people actually thought more scientifically, literature and the world as a whole would be much improved. And don't try and claim that science takes away from wonder and creativity, because it doesn't. 


You're actually wrong and your statements make me believe you've never analyzed literature in your life. Walk into a book club and spout comparisons to scientific analyzation and see how long they let you stick around. Science has no place in a literary interpretation, even if it's science fiction. So basically, stop doing it. It makes you look like you have book smarts, but no common sense.


I know a few people who have been to book clubs (and studied literature I might add) and they'd actually agree with me... The people you're talking about are the kind who write terrible stories which you find in the newsagent, not to mention have a massive pole up their arse.



Whatever, I'm done debating with you since you seem to believe we have to use the scientific method to interpret meaning in literature. You're a lost cause.

#597
DJBare

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Lets not allow this thread to devolve into fighting over literary interpretation please, the topic is Indoctrination theory and the clues pertaining to it.

Modifié par DJBare, 15 mai 2012 - 03:06 .


#598
BatmanTurian

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DJBare wrote...

Lets not allow this thread to devolve into fighting over literary interpretation please, the topic is Indoctrination theory and the clues pertaining to it.


Yeah, I'm done.

#599
Arian Dynas

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BatmanTurian wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning.


I think we share a brain. 


We usually seem to. :D


WE ARE THAT WE ARE.

WE ARE THE HIVE MIND


Shermos wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Fail.

This is comparable to mathematicians trying to fill the gaps in the Earth centric model of the solar system before Galileo's and Kepler's work finally put it to bed. Hopelessly inelegant and cumbersome. If a model needs more than minor revisions to remain consistent with observations of reality, it's usually wrong.


Yeah, except this is a literary interpretation and not science, which means we are analyzing what we think is an extended metaphor and not a physics or mathmatical phenomenon. In fiction, things happen for a reason and sometimes they are meant to happen because they mean something because they are produced by a thinking entity aware of their own creation and its meaning. 

So you fail at logic, just as everyone who has tried to shoot this down before has done.


The principle is still relevant no matter what you're talking about. Good literary works aren't overly convoluted and self contradictory like IT is. The simplest and most elegant interpretation or theory is usually the best.

If people actually thought more scientifically, literature and the world as a whole would be much improved. And don't try and claim that science takes away from wonder and creativity, because it doesn't.  



 

The problem with this whole thought process, you are trying to apply natural science, which shows itself as NOT being governed by a singular intelligence, with a literary creation, WHICH IS, There is nothing in a story that was not put there by the creator, unlike the real world, EVERYTHING in a piece of art is either happy circumstance that the artist left in, or artifice. It's called (say it with me now, those of you who know) THE LAW OF CONSERVATION OF DETAIL

DJBare wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Tell ya what guy, never try to watch Solaris, you won't get the plot.

Agreed *laughs*; I watched it again last night, and some of these guys would have a serious problem with the plot, though it is understandable the game would present some with a problem, it's not like this has ever really be done in games, we've mostly been conditioned to go from point A to point B and win, even in RPG's

 

First off, I'm amazed someone here even knows what Solaris is, in that case, do you know Logan's Run?

And second off, to be fair, I didn't understand much of Solaris either, but then in my case, I was watching it in Russian... so yeah...

#600
Rifneno

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The fact that someone can blather on about being scientific when promoting synthesis at face value without spontaneously combusting proves that there is no justice in the world.