Ce sujet est fermé
Arian Dynas wrote...
Well, I just got a message from Priestly about why the IDT thread was locked, and yes, it was apparently because it was getting too large, he decided that since there was no chance that anyone would read through the whole thing, the discussion would continue elsewhere.
...or months.BatmanTurian wrote...
Adambomb1222 wrote...
Wow... It's a pretty angry night.
We've had a rough few days.
Arian Dynas wrote...
Well, I just got a message from Priestly about why the IDT thread was locked, and yes, it was apparently because it was getting too large, he decided that since there was no chance that anyone would read through the whole thing, the discussion would continue elsewhere.
gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
Well, I just got a message from Priestly about why the IDT thread was locked, and yes, it was apparently because it was getting too large, he decided that since there was no chance that anyone would read through the whole thing, the discussion would continue elsewhere.
Ah well that's true. Nice of him to let us know, and not like we couldn't just make another IDT thread. Good to discuss here. Still viewing the Breath scene, was taking it easy the past week, still no further in identifying the objects.
Arian Dynas wrote...
gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
Well, I just got a message from Priestly about why the IDT thread was locked, and yes, it was apparently because it was getting too large, he decided that since there was no chance that anyone would read through the whole thing, the discussion would continue elsewhere.
Ah well that's true. Nice of him to let us know, and not like we couldn't just make another IDT thread. Good to discuss here
And another side bonus to the whole thing, the troll trumpeting about how he shut us down has been denied his scalp.
Big Bad wrote...
Shermos wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
Shermos wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
Shermos wrote...
I'll admit that my words have been too harsh toward those who are not ignorant by choice and I apologise all of you. Those who who do choose to remain ignorant however, need a kick in the pants and also need to be shown for what they are to those who might otherwise be swayed. I wouldn't call that trolling.
Noooo.... I wouldn't either, considering that what you are ACTUALLY doing is closer to being a pretientious coffee shop hipster sitting there, complaining about all the plebians whom aren't as "deep" and witty as you are, to understand this deep ending that means absolutely nothing.
It doesn't look like you bother to read my posts properly. At worst, you quote me out of context and straw man as above.
Whatever.
I've dismissed you by now, so say what you will.
And that's your problem. Choosing to remain ignorant.
Not agreeing with you != ignorant.
Honestly, I read through your post and found it to be well written and intelligent. But you make as many assumptions and use as many ad hoc rationalizations and strawman arguments as anybody here ever does. Maybe more.
BatmanTurian wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
Well, I just got a message from Priestly about why the IDT thread was locked, and yes, it was apparently because it was getting too large, he decided that since there was no chance that anyone would read through the whole thing, the discussion would continue elsewhere.
Ah well that's true. Nice of him to let us know, and not like we couldn't just make another IDT thread. Good to discuss here
And another side bonus to the whole thing, the troll trumpeting about how he shut us down has been denied his scalp.
oh yeah, cuz the thread wasn't locked because of him. Smells like bittersweet victory.
Ditto, I think there might be more of a reason to keep the thread short, certainly easier for the devs to track, think about it or IT.Arian Dynas wrote...
Unfortunately, I agree with Priestly on this one "And yet, somehow, life still goes on."
Modifié par balance5050, 15 mai 2012 - 05:42 .
Of course they are not perfect, no one is, but to stumble so dramatically at the last hurdle makes absolutely no sense unless it was planned, this is their flag ship game we are talking about, I suspect Bioware would have preferred a simple boss fight over this if they did not have something else planned.MentalKase wrote...
I know we like to think that Bioware is perfect.......
MentalKase wrote...
I might just be cinic, but I still don't buy the indoctrination theory. I feel we are giving too much credit to what I feel what is just a very big blunder.
I know we like to think that Bioware is perfect but reality is they are just another studio in the EA empire. That means they have to do what EA tells thems. EA hasn't been known to produces top quality games. In fact the only aquired Bioware after Mass Effect 1, granted the buyout process started before Mass Effect release but the pre-order sales showed the game would be profit maker. EA managed the whole PR of Mass Effect 2 & 3 including the lies we were told before the release. I still feel that EA release a game that wasn't fully completed.
Becuase of this we are hoping for something that isn't there. The writers took artistic license in a lot of game playing toward mood or emotion rather than logic. If you watch the endings for the mood rather than logic it makes a decent ending. I however did not like the ending becuase I lean to logic instead of emotion. Indoctrination theory is a logic graps to make an emotionally charge ending to make sense.
Just be prepared for the worst, not all holes will be plugged. Endings still won't be logical becuase the endings aren't supposed to be logical.
Modifié par BatmanTurian, 15 mai 2012 - 05:45 .
EDIT: ^^ Formatting is bugged out^^ Sorry.americanidiot53 wrote...
americanidiot53 wrote...
I'm not sure how much CleverNoob's documentary is valued here in the forums as being valid, but I just watched it and agreed with most of it (I am an IT supporter; there's simply no other way to make sense of the ending). However, I came up with a couple questions and possible flaws. I am by nature a skeptic even about the things I believe, so I need some pretty solid proof to completely take something on as my own belief.
I know there's a wall of text below, but I would greatly appreciate it if I got some of these questions answered or some rebuttals against my own rebuttals. Anyways. Please note again that I have nothing against IT and appreciate it; I just have some questions needing answering.
Thanks![list]
[*]Some clarification- So did Harbinger actually leave or is this taking place in Shephard’s mind? If it’s taking place in Shephard’s mind, why would he think Harbinger would leave? If you say the Reapers caused Shepard to think Harbinger was leaving for the “ray of hope” that Shepard might feel, then the Reapers are in control of his mind, defeating your earlier claim that Shepard is not actually indoctrinated.
If IT is correct, it is constructed within Shepard's mind. As far as to why he would think Harbinger would leave, the audio coming through from Alliance forces suggests that the common perception is that the wave of ground forces were destroyed. Aside from this, Shepard's mind would be left vulnerable from extensive exposure to harmful energy currents, (EMF, ect.), resulting in confusion, openness to suggestion, etc. When it comes to what denotes "Indoctrination", there never seems to be a 100% state of control. Indoctrination is a manipulation of perception to encourage compliance and drive the indoctrinee into willing submission. Indoctrination, in my mind, is more of an evolutionary state of mental degeneration, and less of a state of absolute control.
[*]Dream sounds- The “dream-like” noises after Shepard gets up could just be the developer’s attempt to demonstrate the hearing loss that Shepard went through after being hit by the beam. Especially given the higher pitch, the sounds resemble more of a “ringing” than any “dream-like” sounds.
While this is certainly possible, certain ambiance present in the dreams manifests throughout the game whenever Shepard is near unconsciousness. Given the escalation of the dream states, (starting with the partial knock out on Earth after the Reaper beam), it is logical to deduce that Shepard has reached a new height of mental illusion. The complex perspective is that it's a subtle plot device. The more straight forward answer is simple sensory sound effect. Such ambiguity is the prime divider of IT Theorist from those who are not: Complex vs. Simple; Abstract vs. Face Value.
Reaper and Dream Sounds- The reaper growl is heard in many places by other people. For example, the opening sequence with all the men and women on the ground and the scene on Thessia with the Reaper in the background both feature the Reaper growls. Simply put, the growls in the dream sequences are simply in the back of Shepard's mind while he dreams.
While certainly possible within the scope of reality, narratively speaking, such things are generally more intentional in effect. Dreams and visions have always been a foreshadowing plot device in Mass Effect. That the dreams do not, per se, involve the Reapers, yet Reaper growls, electronically modified voices, the name "Harbinger", and so forth can be experienced clearly in the files, but ever so slightly in the dreams, suggests some form of subtle intent. Also, certain signs of EMF exposure can be experienced in the dreams as well as the narratively signficant doppleganger.
[*]Fade-out sequences- White light is merely a fade-out technique, and given that both situations (the dream and the laser beam) featured some form of produced light (fire and laser respectively), it makes sense to game developers as the white light fade out brings the player into Shepard’s shoes (i.e. being blinded and having the whole “slow-down, life flash before your eyes” moment). If you look more closely at the whole game, many things are reused (i.e. big things like mission structure: go to planet, meet comrade, make final decision, leave planet). These reused transition screens are more likely a development of lazy game design than anything else. It’s possible that there was some grand scheme, but unlikely when looking at the game as a whole.
While present in the dreams, this is- once again, in my opinion- one of the weakest arguments for the IT. There really isn't any grand significance that lends it in favor of the Theory over a base special effect.
[*]Blurry horizon on the ground in front of the beam- Shephard could very well be blinded by the light and energy of intensity of Harbinger’s laser. However, I like the pulsating ambient point though. I had never thought of that before and agree that potentially it could mean something. Could have something to do with the effects of Harbinger’s laser on Shepard’s eyesight though, too.
While the blurry horizon isn't much, several other distinct features suggest that something is off in this scene. Bodies, for one, are now present around Shepard; just before being knocked out, Harbinger was evaporating soldiers, (which is typical). While "Marauder Shields" could have killed a few, the body count is signficant for a single Reaper soldier. Also, several new "dream trees" and grass appear in the area, whereas before there were limited amounts. That doesn't even mention the bazarre act of Harbinger leaving without first securing the beam.
If they really were dead bodies, why not give them texture instead of just overlaying them on a smooth surface? If anything, this goes to show that Bioware was at least a little lazy in their last efforts of the game, if they weren’t rushed. I agree that this is one of your strong points (and this is kind of a weak refutation), but I’m curious as to why they would abandon the 3D models outside of the beam.
More detailed "piles" already existed from Mass Effect 2. At least for me, a simple retexture of those higher-rez bodies would be the way to go if I were to get lazy, yet this is seen at a minimum. While not definitive, the extremely low quality, (~2001 graphical parallel), body piles and virtually no attempt at fine details is just odd.
[*]Anderson’s entry- How do you know that there weren’t other entrances around the citadel. When exiting the dark red hallway, the player sees the curvature of the room, and it’s possible that Anderson was teleported somewhere else on the curvature.
CleverNoob struck me as overpresumptuous in thinking that the beam couldn't lead elsewhere. However, both Anderson and the shifting infrastructure would have had to have moved with extreme haste for him to arrive at the control panel first, (after following Shepard up), and leave no clear entry way behind him.
Anderson could have been referring to the moving panels of electricity as the “moving walls.” This one is a bit of a stretch, but I’ll throw it out there anyway.
Both the panels and the wall that shifted, allowing Shepard to leave the body collection room could, indeed, be interpretted this way.
[*]Why would the Reapers make the Keepers be alive in Shepard’s hallucination? Why even include them?
The Keepers played a major roll in unravelling the mystery of the Citadel in Mass Effect. Having been revealed as key components to the functionality of the station, as well as responsible for summoning the Reapers into a new cycle, the better question may be "Why not?".
1M1 Theory- If Shepard remembers those minute of details, then why doesn’t he remember the main room of the citadel or other MAJOR aspects of the Citadel?
First, the 1M1 theory is relatively minor, all things considered. Perhaps the most distinctive, (if unintentional), contribution is in making it clear that human markings, (and tech, if you look closely enough), were in an area of the Citadel that the Catalyst claimed had never been visited by organics. Given its isolated and distinct position, it is unlikely that the "moving walls" brought these parts here. And why such minor details? The mind can work that way. You may watch shows about ghosts all night, then dream about a cat you saw for a split second earlier in the day. There is also something to be said about narrative significance- leaving subliminal cues in music, imagery, etc. is common practice to guide the player toward a certain state of mind.
[*]Clarification question- I’ve never been quite sure why Anderson seemed to wobble on his feet while standing. Was the Illusive Man in control of both of Shepard and his bodies?
Yes. How is unknown, but he clearly was.
Bullet Hole from Marauder Shields- Why does Shepard’s armor not show wear and tear most of the time? Simply put, Bioware throughout all three Mass Effect games has never done something along the lines of the Batman “Arkham” games and had the main characters suit get slowly tattered. It makes no sense for them to begin that trend in the last 15 minutes of the game. I will concede, however, that this shot from Marauder Shields is much more prominent than any other shots that Shepard has endured.
Distinct personal wounding/damage was largely abandoned in shooters a few years after the millenium, as a means to cut corners. In this case, it makes narrative sense: to show the unusual degree of damage suffered by Shepard, which lead to his poor health. To show him limping and gasping with unscratched armor would be even more nonsensical. What is truly noteworthy is (a. How certain parts of Shepard's armor is cleanly seared off, without any real damage to the flesh underneith and (b. the use of the camera angle to define the Marauder wound and the parallel between Anderson's/Shepard's new wound, (along with both of them screaming at once during the shot).
[*]If Shepard is naturally inquisitive, then why does he not ask questions in his dream? If he’s not fully indoctrinated and the catalyst sequence is just a hallucination, wouldn’t he still ask questions given that his mind is still under his own control?
Only the strongest of wills can modify dreams actively. Once again, the question would be as suited or better so, toward if this were a real experience- Why not dig in deeper, Shepard, if you're going to make such a huge choice? But a key can be found in the Catalyst and the Reaper's parallel to the paranormal. Many Reaper aspects, (including indoctrination), emulate the Demonic. A semi-common trend with demons is mimicry- the demon presenting itself as something familiar or trustworthy to manipulate or to mock. With the Catalyst, we see a potential emotional play as it appears as the child. To the player, it is odd; to Shepard, (who is likely more emotionally bound, in his dream state), it may come off as painful to reject.
How is Shepard aware of what the colors mean? That’s a player thing. I highly doubt Shepard sees “blue” as a good color and “red” as a bad color. If we are talking about the players, then we have to think a little bit more. I highly doubt players would simply make a decision because of color coordination in the different sectors of the Crucible. This is the final choice, and it’s easy for the player to notice this because of the music and the massive consequences of each choice. MOST players would think critically about their options and pick the one that makes sense to their Shepard (i.e. hopefully “Destroy”). It is highly unlikely to say that Bioware would institute a color discord in order to “fool” their players about which ending to pick.
While certainly not proof, (as ME2's explosions were Red for Paragon, Blue for Renegade), I find it interesting that I was actually tricked here. Aside from being so confused by everything up to this point and how it broke from ME tradition, (and the brief display of "what does what"), I decided to get a closer look at what the "Blue" was all about. However, once you get a certain distance, you can't turn away, effectively trapping my Shepard. If this was intentional, on Bioware's part, it would be based off of the observation that many people trend toward Paragon, (blue, traditionally), in combination with the less-than-lovely idea of ending all AI and Reaper-tech based machines with Destroy. In a sense, manipulation of the player and surely as Shepard.
[*]The developers had a different ending planned. How can we take all the “hints” displayed in the past two games as hints if the intended ending wasn’t actually used?[/b]
Indoctrination is a major part of the lore; a part extremely difficult to whitewash. The most signficant clue that indoctrination was planned came with ME2: Arrival, which was developed in the early stages of ME3's production. Aside from that, the exact details of this alleged original ending would have to be carefully analyzed for a precise answer. Much like the core of the Mass Effect story, it could have been a case of minor details being substituted to give an impression of deviation, but still allowing the tale to remain the same in the end. In other words, if "that end" and "these ends" are both false endings, the real ones may not truly be effected.
[*]I posted this earlier. Is there a better forum to put this in? So far I haven't had any conclusive responses, and I was really wondering what some people had to say about this. Not trying to be a petulant child here. I would just like some answers.
Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 15 mai 2012 - 06:00 .
Auralius Carolus wrote...
Once again, just my opinion and my perspective. The Indoctrination Theory is an amalgamation of work from dozens of individuals, each with their own unique skill sets and contributions, but all with a common conclusion. One person is unlikely to give you anywhere near the full picture, as we are all outsiders looking in.
Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 mai 2012 - 06:04 .
First: Comparing the evidence gathered by IT as enough to "easily win any Supreme Court case" is laughable. It is all circumstantial; it all has alternative explanations available. Presented together it does, in fact, present a fairly credible case--in fact, it's equally credible as the alternative you so quickly dismiss. If two people got together in a locked room and wrote the ending scenes, and did not go through the peer review process that the rest of the game received, then is it really hard to believe that the end result is something that doesn't appeal to fans? There's enough evidence for IT to make the defense want to cut a deal, maybe, but not enough to guarantee a win if you go to court--not by a long shot.BatmanTurian wrote...
Further proving the hypothesis that those who believe Bioware can't write/shouldn't-be-given-the-credit/are lazy/whatever-new-argument can't stomache I.T. because it " gives Bioware too much credit".
I don't know, this just doesn't have much of a logical basis considering all of the great games they have made over the years. Some of you may have cut your teeth on Baldur's Gate and NWN but my first Bioware games were Jade Empire and KOTOR, both of which had awesome twist endings. It's hard for me to believe, after playing so many great games made by them, that they could fail so hard in the last 10 mins of what was sure to be a blockbuster. Much of the circumstantial evidence we've gathered (which would easily win any Supreme Court case) makes it more likely that the ending had a deeper meaning than the face-value interpretation.
EDIT: oh and "Endings still won't be logical becuase the endings aren't supposed to be logical. "
Circular logic is circular.
Ulous wrote...
I don't know if anyone has already touched on this but is it not possible that it's a combination of both dream and reality? He could be living the reality i.e. making the final decision but just not in the way he is seeing it (due to the heavy influence of reaper indoctrination), then when he finally makes his choice and then dies, this is when he goes into full dream state and then dreams the perfect ending to his choice, earth liberated and his best friends living in paradise (apart from the best red ending were he wakes back up).
If any of you have ever sleep walked you will know what i'm talking about, in reality you could walking around your house naked, but in your dream you are walking around fully clothed in a completely different place.
Lastly maybe the laser that hit Shepard beamed him onto Harbinger and not the Citadel and this is where he made his final choice, as above in reality he could be aboard Harbinger but in his mind he wants to be in the Citadel, being aboard Harbinger would also explain the massive attempts at indoctrination he is experiencing all of a sudden, being aboard Harbinger would also make sense with regard to the best red ending, if Harbinger came crashing back to earth it could also explain the london rubble and the alleged reaper cable............ or maybe i'm thinking into it to much.
Modifié par Big G13, 15 mai 2012 - 06:15 .
The Invisible Commando wrote...
Sauruz wrote...
How do you know that IT is wrong and your headcanon is right? Maybe Bioware always intended IT. Your headcanon isn't much less baseless than IT.The Invisible Commando wrote...
If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"
The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.
Besides, how did the Reaper know Shepard was "hurting inside" about that child?
I found a plot hole in your headcanon.
Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.
Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.
If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?
Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?
Aparantly there is something in the 17hz range in the game, which is also a frequency that is known to cause anxiety in some people, of course your audio equipment would need to be capable of reproducing such a low frequency, I don't think many would have anything that goes below 20hz.Bill Casey wrote...
Just curious...
Has the game been checked at all for sound outside of the range of human hearing?
DJBare wrote...
And the real interesting part, a lot of us do feel betrayed, or at least used to feel that way in some cases, and indoctrination is about betrayal, imagine finding the crucible is another reaper trap and Hackett is indoctrinated to ensure it get's built and delivered where it's needed, earth, with the reaper heart as it's source it becomes one giant indoc device, 11 billion(less the dead) potential humans indoctrinated.Ownaholic wrote...
MaximizedAction wrote...
www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx
"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."
So by telling the player that he was indeed undergoing indoctrination would destroy a link between the player and Shepard that BW tried to establish.
In the KOTOR days a twist without explaining it would indeed have been fatal because then the game would've been released and finished without a proper story wrap up.
But in DLC days you have new possibilities for designing your story progression. And you could not do that with Expansion packs in the old days, because they cannot be given to the player for free...DLC can.
This guy gets the PRIIIIIIIIIIZE.
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