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[BatmanTurian]

StElmo wrote...

Soooo... Citadel, is that an indoctrination device when that beam was set up?

Hard to say. It was made of Reaper Tech so it's suspect. I wouldn't be surprised if it was like Object Rho and meant to amplify the effect.

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

God, I have to tell you, Davishepard is a total idiot. His responses are weak, his arguments built up poorly, and his logic reasoning is about the same as Göring trying to explain to the allied forces why it was justified to kill over 3 million jews.

no kidding. just another troll with no accountability or intellectual honesty. Too many trolls on this board. The moderators are sub-par.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

StElmo wrote...

Has anyone considered that the citadel beam itself is a giant indoctrination device? Just throwing it out there.

The Beam in London being an indcotrination device, plausible I'd say. I remember reading a datapad message that showed someone going through indoctrination and hinting they "knew what to do" about the voices, more than likely with a bullet. Would also explain the interference that messes with the Missile guidance, remember in ME1 when Sovereign hit Eden Prime the survivors mentioned some kind of sound and communication was jammed as well (at least I think it was, not 100% on both of those.)

Not only that, but most Reaper tech has been known to emit some form of indoctrination signal, so since the Beam is a Reaper construct it's not all that far fetched it'd be able to indoctrinate London/pacify humans coming through the beam. If  that's the case maybe it's acting as an amplifier against Shepard, contributing to the Theory.

[BatmanTurian]

David7204 wrote...

There's also that conversation with EDI when she tells Shepard specifically that s/he is fully organic.

Shepard is organic in the sense that his/her brain is organic and skin and some other things. But Shep also has a lot of synthetic upgrades and Cybernetics. Shep is ME's 500 Billion dollar man, built faster, stronger, tougher, and oh yeah, torn from the clutches of the Grim Reaper himself.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 26 mai 2012 - 07:24 .

[Corik]

BatmanTurian wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Soooo... Citadel, is that an indoctrination device when that beam was set up?

Hard to say. It was made of Reaper Tech so it's suspect. I wouldn't be surprised if it was like Object Rho and meant to amplify the effect.

I don't think the citadel nor the beam are Indoctrination devices. That would be going too far. Reapers can indoctrinate if they are near you. The most logical explanation to Shepard possible indoctrination would be Harbinger being very close to him and Shepard willpower being almost completely broken by the difficult moment he's living: His planet destroyed, some of his friends dying, his injuries...

[Ytook]

This has probably been mentioned before but I think the breath scene is odd in how it feels, many people say it's just an Easter egg for people with high EMS, but if it is why is it at odds with the the hopeful tone on the planet. The breath scene is very dark, with the wind sounds and the general dark atmosphere, it's completely tonaly disconnected from the rest of the ending.

[Rosewind]

BatmanTurian wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's also that conversation with EDI when she tells Shepard specifically that s/he is fully organic.

Shepard is organic in the sense that his/her brain is organic and skin and some other things. But Shep also has a lot of synthetic upgrades and Cybernetics. Shep is ME's 500 Billion Credit man, built faster, stronger, tougher, and oh yeah, torn from the clutches of the Grim Reaper himself.

Fixed *giggle*

[Corik]

Ytook wrote...

This has probably been mentioned before but I think the breath scene is odd in how it feels, many people say it's just an Easter egg for people with high EMS, but if it is why is it at odds with the the hopeful tone on the planet. The breath scene is very dark, with the wind sounds and the general dark atmosphere, it's completely tonaly disconnected from the rest of the ending.

The book in the CE clearly states that if you have 4000 EMS and save Anderson from TIM, you live, and if you have 5000 EMS even if Anderson dies to TIM you also live (of course, only if you choose Destroy). I don't think it's an easter egg, Bioware put that ending deliberately.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Ytook wrote...

This has probably been mentioned before but I think the breath scene is odd in how it feels, many people say it's just an Easter egg for people with high EMS, but if it is why is it at odds with the the hopeful tone on the planet. The breath scene is very dark, with the wind sounds and the general dark atmosphere, it's completely tonaly disconnected from the rest of the ending.

I believe it's done that way for a reason, mostly to tell the player that Shepard's story isn't over (regardless of Indoctrination Theory) but also to hint that what may have just happened was all in Shepard's mind. The rubble more than likely being from London adds a layer of mystery as well, can't see it being London rubble without Indoctrination Theory or some kind of hallucination.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

God, I have to tell you, Davishepard is a total idiot. His responses are weak, his arguments built up poorly, and his logic reasoning is about the same as Göring trying to explain to the allied forces why it was justified to kill over 3 million jews.

no kidding. just another troll with no accountability or intellectual honesty. Too many trolls on this board. The moderators are sub-par.

I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's a total idiot. There's a difference. Some trolls are at least smart ones, like the one who got the previous IT thread locked. Damn, that guy was subtle!

[BatmanTurian]

Rosewind wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's also that conversation with EDI when she tells Shepard specifically that s/he is fully organic.

Shepard is organic in the sense that his/her brain is organic and skin and some other things. But Shep also has a lot of synthetic upgrades and Cybernetics. Shep is ME's 500 Billion Credit man, built faster, stronger, tougher, and oh yeah, torn from the clutches of the Grim Reaper himself.

Fixed *giggle*

yeah i actually meant to put that but made a Fruedian slip.

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

God, I have to tell you, Davishepard is a total idiot. His responses are weak, his arguments built up poorly, and his logic reasoning is about the same as Göring trying to explain to the allied forces why it was justified to kill over 3 million jews.

no kidding. just another troll with no accountability or intellectual honesty. Too many trolls on this board. The moderators are sub-par.

I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's a total idiot. There's a difference. Some trolls are at least smart ones, like the one who got the previous IT thread locked. Damn, that guy was subtle!

most of the trolls we get are idiots. It's not surprising considering coming to the conclusions we have involves careful, deep, logical thought and paying close attention to detail, lore, plot, and dialogue.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

God, I have to tell you, Davishepard is a total idiot. His responses are weak, his arguments built up poorly, and his logic reasoning is about the same as Göring trying to explain to the allied forces why it was justified to kill over 3 million jews.

no kidding. just another troll with no accountability or intellectual honesty. Too many trolls on this board. The moderators are sub-par.

I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's a total idiot. There's a difference. Some trolls are at least smart ones, like the one who got the previous IT thread locked. Damn, that guy was subtle!

most of the trolls we get are idiots. It's not surprising considering coming to the conclusions we have involves careful, deep, logical thought and paying close attention to detail, lore, plot, and dialogue.

Yeah, it seems to me that there are lots of people on this network who aren't fans of analyzng stuff.
Although, since I'm studying literature and history, I may just be a fan of analyzing!

[D.Sharrah]

LelianaHawke wrote...

To the bolded part...that is just one of the interpertations.  There are others that suggest that IT includes a "waking nightmare" component...that is there is a mix of reality and hallucination and part of what is so confusing/frustrating about the endings is not being sure what is real and what is hallucination/dream.

I support IT to the extent that it supports player speculation. My problem becomes when it becomes THE ending... when evidence is used to show others they are wrong. At the end of the day, it's all just headcanon. Personally, I like my own headcanon more.

I actually don't want the ending to be too clarified, because then it introduces too much set canon. The problem with set  canon is that Bioware doesn't have the money needed to do all possible consequences and permutations justice. The moment they choose one thing, they're just ignoring others due to lack of time and money.

Good example is how Liara got lifted above all other LI's... because she had the biggest fanbase. I don't want my Shepard to be at the mercy of EA's finance department, forcing Bioware to make a choice. And I certainly don't want her to be at the mercy of forum polling and have to conform to others' headcanon.

Now that's entirely fair and something that I can appreciate.  But I will humbly disagree with you simply from the standpoint that I think Bioware has the right to choose a canon ending to the story...whether that is because this is simply the end or as a way to make further stories in the universe easier to create.

[DarthSliver]

The one thing that makes this theory sound is Shepard surviving at the end of Destroy ending. I mean think about it this way, Shepard didnt survive his first planet fall and that planet had a thinner atmosphere than Earths. The fact that the rubble is from human buildings that Shepard is lying in should say something. Even if Shepard did fall inside one of the pieces of the Citadel there is problems with that line of thought. 1. I doubt Shepard wouldve survived the explosion shown and 2. I am sure the material wouldve crushed Shepard upon entrying. Lets all take in fact that there was no pieces in that rubble that came from the Citadel, it was all human built stuff and there was not any kinda spaceship type of material. It was all human built buildings pieces.

But i still think there wouldve been more hints to IDT actually being real, but if anything i think EC will decide the fate of this theory. Just one thing id like to ask how would you react if the EC chopped this theories head off?

Modifié par DarthSliver, 26 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[MaximizedAction]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

God, I have to tell you, Davishepard is a total idiot. His responses are weak, his arguments built up poorly, and his logic reasoning is about the same as Göring trying to explain to the allied forces why it was justified to kill over 3 million jews.

no kidding. just another troll with no accountability or intellectual honesty. Too many trolls on this board. The moderators are sub-par.

I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's a total idiot. There's a difference. Some trolls are at least smart ones, like the one who got the previous IT thread locked. Damn, that guy was subtle!

most of the trolls we get are idiots. It's not surprising considering coming to the conclusions we have involves careful, deep, logical thought and paying close attention to detail, lore, plot, and dialogue.

Yeah, it seems to me that there are lots of people on this network who aren't fans of analyzng stuff.
Although, since I'm studying literature and history, I may just be a fan of analyzing!

Hey, I'm studying physics and yet haven't had so much fun from literature analysis like in the IT thread.
I guess I just enjoy the sh*t out of ME!
Not saying, others who dislike IT aren't proper fans...maybe IT just needs an open mind (hm, wonder if this can be said about indoctrination in general...)

Doesn't matter, in the end, it'll be BW's job to explain indoctrination (if planned) for everyone.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 26 mai 2012 - 07:50 .

[dreamgazer]

StElmo wrote...

Soooo... Citadel, is that an indoctrination device when that beam was set up?

The Citadel's capacity to at least faintly pacify nearly all on-board has never sat well with me. You can almost "feel" that in the first ME, with the idyllic score and soothing visuals. I fell asleep more than once while running around the Presidium in the first game. (laughs)

[BatmanTurian]

DarthSliver wrote...

The one thing that makes this theory sound is Shepard surviving at the end of Destroy ending. I mean think about it this way, Shepard didnt survive his first planet fall and that planet had a thinner atmosphere than Earths. The fact that the rubble is from human buildings that Shepard is lying in should say something. Even if Shepard did fall inside one of the pieces of the Citadel there is problems with that line of thought. 1. I doubt Shepard wouldve survived the explosion shown and 2. I am sure the material wouldve crushed Shepard upon entrying. Lets all take in fact that there was no pieces in that rubble that came from the Citadel, it was all human built stuff and there was not any kinda spaceship type of material. It was all human built buildings pieces.

But i still think there wouldve been more hints to IDT actually being real, but if anything i think EC will decide the fate of this theory. Just one thing id like to ask how would you react if the EC chopped this theories head off?

We would just go on happily playing, especially if the ending was explained adequately, while trolls would go on here thumbing their noses at us, and we would all just be like " meh, it was just a literary interpretation, not gospel or a scientific law. We just wanted a good ending."

[RaidShock]

Corik wrote...
The book in the CE clearly states that if you have 4000 EMS and save Anderson from TIM, you live, and if you have 5000 EMS even if Anderson dies to TIM you also live (of course, only if you choose Destroy). I don't think it's an easter egg, Bioware put that ending deliberately.

I wouldn't say it is an easter egg - more of a "Woot my Shep survived AND saved the galaxy!" reward for those that went the extra mile and got super high EMS. Clearly it is there on purpose, but that does not necessarily imply anything is to follow.

[BatmanTurian]

dreamgazer wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Soooo... Citadel, is that an indoctrination device when that beam was set up?

The Citadel's capacity to at least faintly pacify nearly all on-board has never sat well with me. You can almost "feel" that in the first ME, with the idyllic score and soothing visuals. I fell asleep more than once while running around the Presidium in the first game. (laughs)

Yes, replaying ME1 after Vega talks about how quiet and wrong the Citadel feels really opened my eyes and made me wonder why I never realized it. It was like we were being indoctrinated (tricked) by Bioware even then!

[Corik]

DarthSliver wrote...

The one thing that makes this theory sound is Shepard surviving at the end of Destroy ending. I mean think about it this way, Shepard didnt survive his first planet fall and that planet had a thinner atmosphere than Earths. The fact that the rubble is from human buildings that Shepard is lying in should say something. Even if Shepard did fall inside one of the pieces of the Citadel there is problems with that line of thought. 1. I doubt Shepard wouldve survived the explosion shown and 2. I am sure the material wouldve crushed Shepard upon entrying. Lets all take in fact that there was no pieces in that rubble that came from the Citadel, it was all human built stuff and there was not any kinda spaceship type of material. It was all human built buildings pieces.

But i still think there wouldve been more hints to IDT actually being real, but if anything i think EC will decide the fate of this theory. Just one thing id like to ask how would you react if the EC chopped this theories head off?

I don't know. I'm not angry for the ending as it is. I'm sad because it seems Shepard is left alone, his friends forget him and run when during the 3 games every one of them would have given his life for him. I really hoped for a Hospital scene after the fight, just like when Kaidan was nearly dead and Shepard was there to take care of him, like a real friend (or LI if you go that way), but with Kaidan, Garrus and the others taking care of him. And humanity and the rest of races rebuilding. That's the end I want to see. Even if Shepard ends dying, I just want his friends to be there with him.

Personally I don't care about theories (IT is cool though, and helps a lot)... What hurts me is what I just said. And hurts a lot.

[D.Sharrah]

BatmanTurian wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

I just don't understand why some people think that symbolism and subtle messages during the game are crazy things that just us ITers can see.

They don't remember Overlord, when the Rogue VI kept saying non-sense sounds and, in the end, it we discovered he was trying to say "please, make it stop". Just suppose that Overlord finished before we discovered that the VI was David and they were going to launch the "end DLC" after some time. During this time, in the debates, the VI sounds would mean nothing to those "true fans", as they like to call themselves?

That " VI " freaked me out so much. Then when I found out it was a person in pain crying out in fear and for help, I felt soooo bad.

I still can't believe that for my super renegade playthough that I am doing right now that I left David w/his brother...

[BatmanTurian]

D.Sharrah wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

I just don't understand why some people think that symbolism and subtle messages during the game are crazy things that just us ITers can see.

They don't remember Overlord, when the Rogue VI kept saying non-sense sounds and, in the end, it we discovered he was trying to say "please, make it stop". Just suppose that Overlord finished before we discovered that the VI was David and they were going to launch the "end DLC" after some time. During this time, in the debates, the VI sounds would mean nothing to those "true fans", as they like to call themselves?

That " VI " freaked me out so much. Then when I found out it was a person in pain crying out in fear and for help, I felt soooo bad.

I still can't believe that for my super renegade playthough that I am doing right now that I left David w/his brother...

You horrible person.

[MegumiAzusa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

need some backup here : http://social.biowar...7305/2#12250086

When do these people admit that the guy who wrote that is no part of BioWare and was, how he said it, basically blindfolded at the times he was there.

[Ytook]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Ytook wrote...

This has probably been mentioned before but I think the breath scene is odd in how it feels, many people say it's just an Easter egg for people with high EMS, but if it is why is it at odds with the the hopeful tone on the planet. The breath scene is very dark, with the wind sounds and the general dark atmosphere, it's completely tonaly disconnected from the rest of the ending.

I believe it's done that way for a reason, mostly to tell the player that Shepard's story isn't over (regardless of Indoctrination Theory) but also to hint that what may have just happened was all in Shepard's mind. The rubble more than likely being from London adds a layer of mystery as well, can't see it being London rubble without Indoctrination Theory or some kind of hallucination.

I completely agree, even putting aside things like the rubble and setting, I don't see how it could be seen as an Easter egg as it is so tonaly disconnected from the rest of the ending.