55528 réponses à ce sujet

[MegumiAzusa]

EpyonX3 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sorry I have to post this.

Certainly nothing that is in the decision thingy. Btw if you use that how about uploading it in full size so it's easier to see?

I thought I did. Let me try again.


i45.tinypic.com/ax1biq.png

In case you guys didn't see the edit.

Still not full size and your compression makes the image even more blurry.

That's odd. I didn't even change the resolution of the picture. What do you use to upload pictures?

I'm allowed to upload stuff on the webspace of a friend ^^

[llbountyhunter]

Corik wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Arrival DLC has reapers invading dreams...

None of them tried to trick anybody into submission. Reapers are not subtle, they just command people to obey.

Still they need to break their willpower. And Shepard's willpower is HUGE.

yes, correct. also in the mass effect books, grayson was able to resist rapid indoctrination (direct reaper tech tech injected) for extreme periods of time, it wasnt until TIM drugged him with red sand that indoctrination was able to take a hold.

[EpyonX3]

MegumiAzusa wrote...


I'm allowed to upload stuff on the webspace of a friend ^^

I see. Let me try again!

[Corik]

Lord Goose wrote...

Still they need to break their willpower.

Yes, and?
None of the options is about "submitting to Reapers". Even Synthesis.

Control is what TIM tried to do. Synthesis is what Saren tried to do. Those are the ways to fall under reaper control. Of course, if we assume IT is correct. If IT is wrong... then of course, the options are real ways to end the reaper threat. But here we are assuming IT is correct and the options given are your way to submit to Indoctrination or recover control of your mind.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

Still they need to break their willpower.

Yes, and?
None of the options is about "submitting to Reapers". Even Synthesis.

Except Synthesis is achieving the Reapers' end goal for them, on their terms.

You couldnt be submitting more to them if you tried.

[TJBartlemus]

Lord Goose wrote...

Still they need to break their willpower.

Yes, and?
None of the options is about "submitting to Reapers". Even Synthesis.

If the reapers made it that plain then of course Shepard wouldn't pick that. They needed to trick him, like as Byne said Saren and TIM thought they were doing the galaxy good. Most need to realize that the Reapers strongest weapon was deception and deceit.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Still they need to break their willpower.

Yes, and?
None of the options is about "submitting to Reapers". Even Synthesis.

your submiting to the reapers ideas... essentialy submiting to the reapers.

you could argue that the doctor on arrival didnt "submit" to the reapers, she began to see the reapers in a "new light"- that the reapers arent bad, that sysnthesis is good, but that too, is a form of submision

indoctrination: complete.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 27 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[Big G13]

Lord Goose wrote...

Still they need to break their willpower.

Yes, and?
None of the options is about "submitting to Reapers". Even Synthesis.

If you believe that, then by all means, control and synthesis away my friend. 

[Corik]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Still they need to break their willpower.

Yes, and?
None of the options is about "submitting to Reapers". Even Synthesis.

If the reapers made it that plain then of course Shepard wouldn't pick that. They needed to trick him, like as Byne said Saren and TIM thought they were doing the galaxy good. Most need to realize that the Reapers strongest weapon was deception and deceit.

This. Both Saren and TIM thought they were doing good for the galaxy. In the decission chamber, if you choose Control or Synthesis you (the player even) think you're doing good for the galaxy. Even when everybody else, your friends, your LI, want to destroy the reapers.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Goose wrote...

But we must remember if IT is true, Shepard is unconscious in London. So Harbinger is just messing with his mind.

Reapers doesn't usually try to mess with anybody mind. They just make people obey by giving them orders.

To quote a very prominent indoctrination victim, Matriarch Benezia. "The more you stay aboard (Soverign) the more Sarens will seems correct. You sit at his feet and smile as his words pour into you. It is subtle at first, I thought I was strong enough to resist, but instead i became an eager tool willing to serve."

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him. It can be a fast process where tehy break his mind, but that quickly resulsts in mental decay for the victim. in order to create a true alley like Sovreign or Benezia it ahs to be so subtle the victim does not even notice it is beeing controlled.

Thoughts align with the Reapers mentality without the victim ever noticing it. It is the same reason the person is such a perfect undercover agent because he does not know he is controlled, he simply thinks he is doing the right thing and as such retain all prior knowledge and dosent eevn shift up his behavior much.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 27 mai 2012 - 09:08 .

[Lord Goose]

In addition to my Kenson example earlier, both Saren and TIM thought they were fully in control until the end of ME1 and ME3 respectively. They werent being obedient little Reaper puppets as far as they were concerned. They were doing what was best for the galaxy.

If we go by IT, Illusive Man may not be indoctrinated at all. All we know, what he implanted himself with Reaper tech and is hiding somewhere in the Citadel. Considering that Reaperd did attack Horizon because they sensed threat in Lawson's research, it maybe possible what he would be able to control the Reapers. If we go by IT, of course.

As for Saren, we have no evidence what he experienced complex visions, which involved parts of his mind fighting each other.

Indoctrination is like putting a dog on the leash. You may choose long leash, so dog will not know what she is under your control until reaches end, you may choose short leash... But most certainly, what you won't try to deceive a dog. That's just illogical.

[MegumiAzusa]

Just noticed that Reaper growls aren't exclusive to Leaving Earth and derivates but also used in much more subtle ways in other tracks. For example Aralakh Company @ 1:03 and 1:13 the music fades out into a Reaper growl and in general it's littered with them.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 27 mai 2012 - 09:11 .

[Corik]

Lord Goose wrote...

In addition to my Kenson example earlier, both Saren and TIM thought they were fully in control until the end of ME1 and ME3 respectively. They werent being obedient little Reaper puppets as far as they were concerned. They were doing what was best for the galaxy.

If we go by IT, Illusive Man may not be indoctrinated at all. All we know, what he implanted himself with Reaper tech and is hiding somewhere in the Citadel. Considering that Reaperd did attack Horizon because they sensed threat in Lawson's research, it maybe possible what he would be able to control the Reapers. If we go by IT, of course.

Or they attacked because Cerberus achieved control over husks and other reaper forces, not the reapers themselves. I would be really pissed if someone started controlling my soldiers.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

In addition to my Kenson example earlier, both Saren and TIM thought they were fully in control until the end of ME1 and ME3 respectively. They werent being obedient little Reaper puppets as far as they were concerned. They were doing what was best for the galaxy.

If we go by IT, Illusive Man may not be indoctrinated at all. All we know, what he implanted himself with Reaper tech and is hiding somewhere in the Citadel. Considering that Reaperd did attack Horizon because they sensed threat in Lawson's research, it maybe possible what he would be able to control the Reapers. If we go by IT, of course.

As for Saren, we have no evidence what he experienced complex visions, which involved parts of his mind fighting each other.

Indoctrination is like putting a dog on the leash. You may choose long leash, so dog will not know what she is under your control until reaches end, you may choose short leash... But most certainly, what you won't try to deceive a dog. That's just illogical.

I gathered two things from your post.

1. you do not fully understand IT
2. you need to brush up your knowladge on indoctrination.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 27 mai 2012 - 09:13 .

[MaximizedAction]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Just noticed that Reaper growls aren't exclusive to Leaving Earth and derivates but also used in much more subtle ways in other tracks. For example Aralakh Company @ 1:03 and 1:13 the music fades out into a Reaper growl and in general it's littered with them.

Behold, the mother of all growl fade outs, brought to you by the note E: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 27 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[Bill Casey]

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree slightly. TIM went from Humans on top to TIM on top. He approved sanctuary, implanted occular flashbangs in his soldiers, forced them to follow him and risked earth itself to achieve his goals of ruling all.

So if not a 180 at least 150.

Mass Effect 2...

TIM: The technology from that base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy. Against the Reapers and beyond.

Shepard: Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?

TIM: Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity.



Not so much a 180 shift as an 18...
He was already funding these kinds of unethical barbaric experiments...
Overlord, Akuze, Thorian Creepers, Rachni, Teltin...

The only real difference is the Illusive Man has finally found a way to turn anyone into a cerberus soldier quickly...



I can't see how you didn't see this coming...

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Just noticed that Reaper growls aren't exclusive to Leaving Earth and derivates but also used in much more subtle ways in other tracks. For example Aralakh Company @ 1:03 and 1:13 the music fades out into a Reaper growl and in general it's littered with them.

Behold, the mother of all growl fade outs, brought to you by the note E: www.youtube.com/watch

The difference is there you really got a note, at the times I mentioned are real sounds used in the game incorporated into the song.

[MegumiAzusa]

Bill Casey wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree slightly. TIM went from Humans on top to TIM on top. He approved sanctuary, implanted occular flashbangs in his soldiers, forced them to follow him and risked earth itself to achieve his goals of ruling all.

So if not a 180 at least 150.

Mass Effect 2...

TIM: The technology from that base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy. Against the Reapers and beyond.

Shepard: Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?

TIM: Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity.



Not so much a 180 shift as an 18...
He was already funding these kinds of unethical barbaric experiments...
Overlord, Akuze, Thorian Creepers, Rachni, Teltin...

The only real difference is the Illusive Man has finally found a way to turn anyone into a cerberus soldier quickly...



I can't see how you didn't see this coming...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

[Corik]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree slightly. TIM went from Humans on top to TIM on top. He approved sanctuary, implanted occular flashbangs in his soldiers, forced them to follow him and risked earth itself to achieve his goals of ruling all.

So if not a 180 at least 150.

Mass Effect 2...

TIM: The technology from that base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy. Against the Reapers and beyond.

Shepard: Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?

TIM: Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity.



Not so much a 180 shift as an 18...
He was already funding these kinds of unethical barbaric experiments...
Overlord, Akuze, Thorian Creepers, Rachni, Teltin...

The only real difference is the Illusive Man has finally found a way to turn anyone into a cerberus soldier quickly...


I can't see how you didn't see this coming...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

It's a 360 degree turn. xD

[MegumiAzusa]

Corik wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I disagree slightly. TIM went from Humans on top to TIM on top. He approved sanctuary, implanted occular flashbangs in his soldiers, forced them to follow him and risked earth itself to achieve his goals of ruling all.

So if not a 180 at least 150.

Mass Effect 2...

TIM: The technology from that base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy. Against the Reapers and beyond.

Shepard: Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?

TIM: Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity.



Not so much a 180 shift as an 18...
He was already funding these kinds of unethical barbaric experiments...
Overlord, Akuze, Thorian Creepers, Rachni, Teltin...

The only real difference is the Illusive Man has finally found a way to turn anyone into a cerberus soldier quickly...


I can't see how you didn't see this coming...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

It's a 360 degree turn. xD

That sounds quite equal

[Corik]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Corik wrote...

It's a 360 degree turn. xD

That sounds quite equal

Almost. Is the same, but more stylish 

[MaximizedAction]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Just noticed that Reaper growls aren't exclusive to Leaving Earth and derivates but also used in much more subtle ways in other tracks. For example Aralakh Company @ 1:03 and 1:13 the music fades out into a Reaper growl and in general it's littered with them.

Behold, the mother of all growl fade outs, brought to you by the note E: www.youtube.com/watch

The difference is there you really got a note, at the times I mentioned are real sounds used in the game incorporated into the song.

You're right. But it fits to the scene as you have Reaper stuff all around in that cave.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Modifié par byne, 27 mai 2012 - 09:31 .

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Just noticed that Reaper growls aren't exclusive to Leaving Earth and derivates but also used in much more subtle ways in other tracks. For example Aralakh Company @ 1:03 and 1:13 the music fades out into a Reaper growl and in general it's littered with them.

Behold, the mother of all growl fade outs, brought to you by the note E: www.youtube.com/watch

The difference is there you really got a note, at the times I mentioned are real sounds used in the game incorporated into the song.

You're right. But it fits to the scene as you have Reaper stuff all around in that cave.

Sure, all I wanted to say it's even in the music, sometimes blunt like in the Leaving Earth and in others it's more subtle. Just like indoctrination

[Lord Goose]

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him.

It's not a trick. Benezia isn't provided a choice to begin with. Same for TIM and Saren. They were indoctrinated and they're slaves to the Reapers, even if they don't know it. Saren, TIM and Benezia were given illusion of free will to make them better tools. The only option of disobedience for indoctrinated is suicide.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 27 mai 2012 - 09:34 .