55528 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him.

It's not a trick. Benezia isn't provided a choice to begin with. Same for TIM and Saren. They were indoctrinated and they're slaves to the Reapers, even if they don't know it. Saren, TIM and Benezia were given illusion of free will to make them better tools.

But I thought the Reapers didnt waste time being subtle?

I thought they just ordered the indoctrinated subjects to do what they wanted, and didnt bother deceiving them.

What happened to all that?

Modifié par byne, 27 mai 2012 - 09:34 .

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

[Corik]

Lord Goose wrote...

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him.

It's not a trick. Benezia isn't provided a choice to begin with. Same for TIM and Saren. They were indoctrinated and they're slaves to the Reapers, even if they don't know it. Saren, TIM and Benezia were given illusion of free will to make them better tools.

You don't really choose either. Since ME1 your objective was destroying the reapers. If suddenly, at the end of ME3, you agree with the child (catalyst) and think control or synthesis is better than the option you always wanted... you had been indoctrinated in just 2 sentences.

Modifié par Corik, 27 mai 2012 - 09:35 .

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

I dont think it actually is a glass wall.

EDI says the prothean VI will be kept in the heart of the facility.

A room with one wall that is entirely glass is hardly the heart of the facility.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it may have been Shepard who said that, not EDI, but either way, my point still stands.

Plus if it was a glass wall, why bother infiltrating the facility? Just blow open the glass and land a shuttle right there.

Modifié par byne, 27 mai 2012 - 09:40 .

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him.

It's not a trick. Benezia isn't provided a choice to begin with. Same for TIM and Saren. They were indoctrinated and they're slaves to the Reapers, even if they don't know it. Saren, TIM and Benezia were given illusion of free will to make them better tools. The only option of disobedience for indoctrinated is suicide.

suicide is the only solution AFTER your indoctrinated. before that they DID have a choice.

reject the reapers, or accept them.

[llbountyhunter]

weird double post

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 27 mai 2012 - 09:41 .

[Lord Goose]

I thought they just ordered the indoctrinated subjects to do what they wanted, and didnt bother deceiving them.

What happened to all that?

.

English isn't my native language. Sorry if that is confusing.

My point, that Reapers do not provide anybody choice about indoctrination. They just force it. Those, who indoctrinated have only illussion of free will, if they're valuable enough. Those who are not - turned into husks. Those who are not indoctrinated, can only stay away from Reaper's technology.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 27 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

I dont think it actually is a glass wall.

EDI says the prothean VI will be kept in the heart of the facility.

A room with one wall that is entirely glass is hardly the heart of the facility.

But why was it made to look like glass then? They even loaded splinters and everything for broken glass in that room.
The Artbook says:
"These are early concepts imagining the Cerberus headquaters. The top image represents a version in which the Illusive Man is not viewing a hologram but instead has a window that looks out at a dying star. The image on the facing page envisions what the room would look like following a violent confrontation."
And this look is exactly what you have after fighting Kai Leng.
Keep in mind the descriptions in the artbook are as vague as they can be to not reveal something.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 27 mai 2012 - 09:44 .

[MaximizedAction]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

I dont think it actually is a glass wall.

EDI says the prothean VI will be kept in the heart of the facility.

A room with one wall that is entirely glass is hardly the heart of the facility.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it may have been Shepard who said that, not EDI, but either way, my point still stands.

Plus if it was a glass wall, why bother infiltrating the facility? Just blow open the glass and land a shuttle right there.

It would also be a security issue to have the office with a sort of glass, especially since likes 'exotic' views.

That of course is no real argument.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 27 mai 2012 - 09:47 .

[Lord Goose]

Since ME1 your objective was destroying the reapers.

Well... Actually, the goal is never detailed in first games. In the first one you have to stop Saren and Sovereign, in the second you have to stop Collectors from kidnapping humans. You really only truly fights against the Reapers in third game. And even here, the goal is mostly described as "stop the reapers".

[EpyonX3]

Lord Goose wrote...

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him.

It's not a trick. Benezia isn't provided a choice to begin with. Same for TIM and Saren. They were indoctrinated and they're slaves to the Reapers, even if they don't know it. Saren, TIM and Benezia were given illusion of free will to make them better tools. The only option of disobedience for indoctrinated is suicide.

Benezia's words prove otherwise. When she regained control she said the more you are aboard Soveriegn, the more
Saren's will seems correct. You start to idolize him the longer you are prolonged to indoctrination.

At the end it becomes the victims choice to follow the reapers.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

I dont think it actually is a glass wall.

EDI says the prothean VI will be kept in the heart of the facility.

A room with one wall that is entirely glass is hardly the heart of the facility.

But why was it made to look like glass then? They even loaded splinters and everything for broken glass in that room.
The Artbook says:
"These are early concepts imagining the Cerberus headquaters. The top image represents a version in which the Illusive Man is not viewing a hologram but instead has a window that looks out at a dying star. The image on the facing page envisions what the room would look like following a violent confrontation."
And this look is exactly what you have after fighting Kai Leng.

Well, to clarify, I wasnt saying it wasnt actually a glass wall, and was indeed concrete or something silly like that, I was simply saying it probly isnt a glass wall with the vacuum of space on the other side. It could just be a glass wall with the projection on it, to make it seem more window-like.

He could also have multiple rooms like that, and the one we see in ME2 was indeed a hologram and this one isnt.

I dont really know either way.

Just seems odd TIM's command center would have a wall entirely made of glass.

[Big G13]

Lord Goose wrote...

So yes the Reapers dont just say "obey" and you obey. They have to break a persons will or trick him.

It's not a trick. Benezia isn't provided a choice to begin with. Same for TIM and Saren. They were indoctrinated and they're slaves to the Reapers, even if they don't know it. Saren, TIM and Benezia were given illusion of free will to make them better tools. The only option of disobedience for indoctrinated is suicide.

"Illusions of free will" sounds pretty subtile to me. Sure you want to go with that? You might end up disproving your own point.

[MaximizedAction]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

But why was it made to look like glass then? They even loaded splinters and everything for broken glass in that room.
The Artbook says:
"These are early concepts imagining the Cerberus headquaters. The top image represents a version in which the Illusive Man is not viewing a hologram but instead has a window that looks out at a dying star. The image on the facing page envisions what the room would look like following a violent confrontation."
And this look is exactly what you have after fighting Kai Leng.

Well, to clarify, I wasnt saying it wasnt actually a glass wall, and was indeed concrete or something silly like that, I was simply saying it probly isnt a glass wall with the vacuum of space on the other side. It could just be a glass wall with the projection on it, to make it seem more window-like.

He could also have multiple rooms like that, and the one we see in ME2 was indeed a hologram and this one isnt.

I dont really know either way.

Just seems odd TIM's command center would have a wall entirely made of glass.

Wow, that's a brilliant point. It explains why TIM told us to not overstay our welcome, i.e. wants his base back, seems to contradict Kai Lengs permission to wreck TIMs precious office.

Maybe that wasn't the office.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 27 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

I dont think it actually is a glass wall.

EDI says the prothean VI will be kept in the heart of the facility.

A room with one wall that is entirely glass is hardly the heart of the facility.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it may have been Shepard who said that, not EDI, but either way, my point still stands.

Plus if it was a glass wall, why bother infiltrating the facility? Just blow open the glass and land a shuttle right there.

It would also be a security issue to have the office with a sort of glass, especially since likes 'exotic' views.

Actually now, Shields etc can protect that quite well.
Shep: "Where do you think we'll find the Prothean VI?"
EDI: "A central lab at the heart of this facility. It is the most secure area."
Now we could argue that the central lab is where the proto Reaper is stored (remember it was just a guess). That room is quite huge so it could be that TIM's room is near the outer walls.

[Lord Goose]

Benezia's words prove otherwise.

How exactly?
She could only stay away from Sovereign, before she was indoctrinated.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Actually now, Shields etc can protect that quite well.

My first thought when I read that was "But he's on Earth, waiting for us by the beam!" until I realized what you meant.

Capitalizing Shields really threw me off for a second there.

[EpyonX3]

Lord Goose wrote...

Benezia's words prove otherwise.

How exactly?
She could only stay away from Sovereign, before she was indoctrinated.

The rest of my quote explains it.

[UrgedDuke]

Lord Goose wrote...

Since ME1 your objective was destroying the reapers.

Well... Actually, the goal is never detailed in first games. In the first one you have to stop Saren and Sovereign, in the second you have to stop Collectors from kidnapping humans. You really only truly fights against the Reapers in third game. And even here, the goal is mostly described as "stop the reapers".

The goal of the entire series is to "stop the Reapers"  however ME 1 & 2 was about buying time in order to prepare for them. The only way to stop them is to destroy because all other options are unacceptable

[Corik]

Lord Goose wrote...

Benezia's words prove otherwise.

How exactly?
She could only stay away from Sovereign, before she was indoctrinated.

You are trying to understand everything literal. The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower. In the end, indoctrination is a fight against willpower. You could resist if your willpower is high, but some day... you will fall. In IT theory, this indoctrination attempt is so powerful because Shepard is injured, and his mind exhausted. The choices are symbolic. You can keep on your mission or you can start seeing reaper's ideas good.

[Ytook]

There are accounts in the books of reaper indoctrination attempts failing, it says they make a growling sound when that happens (which is what I and many people think is the odd growling at the bizarre vent boy scene)

[Lord Goose]

"Illusions of free will" sounds pretty subtile to me. Sure you want to go with that? You might end up disproving your own point

My English skill is poor, and I sometimes can't express my line of thoughts correctly.

Indoctrinated are slaves to the Reapers. They didn't choose to became their slaves because Reapers tricked them. They may have illussion of free will if they're valuable, but they can't resist indoctrination their masters in any way rather than suicide. If they don't want to be indoctrinated, they can only stay away from their tech.

While IT goes on assumption that Reapers to need some sort of permission from Shepard to indoctrinate him.

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Actually now, Shields etc can protect that quite well.

My first thought when I read that was "But he's on Earth, waiting for us by the beam!" until I realized what you meant.

Capitalizing Shields really threw me off for a second there.

Meh simple error Germans often do. You capitalize every noun here.

[Corik]

Not permission... They need his willpower broken.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Actually now, Shields etc can protect that quite well.

My first thought when I read that was "But he's on Earth, waiting for us by the beam!" until I realized what you meant.

Capitalizing Shields really threw me off for a second there.

Meh simple error Germans often do. You capitalize every noun here.

Oh I wasnt blaming you for the error or anything.

Its just now I have this mental image of Marauder Shields as a very dedicated window cleaner, valiantly protecting TIM's window from coming to harm