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[Lord Goose]

it says they make a growling sound when that happens (which is what I and many people think is the odd growling at the bizarre vent boy scene)

I've read the Ascension novel. Paul Grayson never had any sort of complex visions. He was hearing voices, but was able to resist by not listening to them. When TIM drugged him, he was able "to hear voices perfectly". After that, he became prisoner in his own body, which was controlled by Reapers totally. He was able to resist it (or it seemed so), but ultimately he became their puppet.

[MegumiAzusa]

Ytook wrote...

There are accounts in the books of reaper indoctrination attempts failing, it says they make a growling sound when that happens (which is what I and many people think is the odd growling at the bizarre vent boy scene)

I just noticed here we have established you hear the alien voices as described in the Codex for full blown indoctrination as soon as Sheps head hits the ground. Then they fade out, and at the exact time she is touching her head with her hand you can hear a subtle buzzing.
But no Reaper growl.

[UrgedDuke]

Lord Goose wrote...

"Illusions of free will" sounds pretty subtile to me. Sure you want to go with that? You might end up disproving your own point

My English skill is poor, and I sometimes can't express my line of thoughts correctly.

Indoctrinated are slaves to the Reapers. They didn't choose to became their slaves because Reapers tricked them. They may have illussion of free will if they're valuable, but they can't resist indoctrination their masters in any way rather than suicide. If they don't want to be indoctrinated, they can only stay away from their tech.

While IT goes on assumption that Reapers to need some sort of permission from Shepard to indoctrinate him.

They are not asking his permission. They are trying to trick him into accepting their ideology and by doing so he sucumbs to indoctrination.

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Actually now, Shields etc can protect that quite well.

My first thought when I read that was "But he's on Earth, waiting for us by the beam!" until I realized what you meant.

Capitalizing Shields really threw me off for a second there.

Meh simple error Germans often do. You capitalize every noun here.

Oh I wasnt blaming you for the error or anything.

Its just now I have this mental image of Marauder Shields as a very dedicated window cleaner, valiantly protecting TIM's window from coming to harm

Someone better make an image out of that, would be quite hilarious.
(Though in most of the instances in ME when "Shields" are mentioned it would be quite hilarious)

[Lord Goose]

The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower.

Does any victim of the Reapers have to make symbolic choice of any kind?
Benezia started to belive in Saren and TIM firmly believed in his ideals, but did they really had a choice?

I think that they were indoctrinated all along. Illusion of free will were given to them only because they were valuable enough to not break them on spot.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

it says they make a growling sound when that happens (which is what I and many people think is the odd growling at the bizarre vent boy scene)

I've read the Ascension novel. Paul Grayson never had any sort of complex visions. He was hearing voices, but was able to resist by not listening to them. When TIM drugged him, he was able "to hear voices perfectly". After that, he became prisoner in his own body, which was controlled by Reapers totally. He was able to resist it (or it seemed so), but ultimately he became their puppet.

however the scientists on the derelict reaper and arrival did have visions and reaper-manipulated dreams.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower.

Does any victim of the Reapers have to make symbolic choice of any kind?
Benezia started to belive in Saren and TIM firmly believed in his ideals, but did they really had a choice?

I think that they were indoctrinated all along. Illusion of free will were given to them only because they were valuable enough to not break them on spot.

We dont know. We werent controlling them. We ARE controlling Shepard.

[Lord Goose]

They are trying to trick him into accepting their ideology and by doing so he sucumbs to indoctrination.

Reapers idelogy can be summed up to this: "harvest all advanced beings". I don't see how Shepard agrees with them in any ending.

[Corik]

Lord Goose wrote...

The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower.

Does any victim of the Reapers have to make symbolic choice of any kind?
Benezia started to belive in Saren and TIM firmly believed in his ideals, but did they really had a choice?

I think that they were indoctrinated all along. Illusion of free will were given to them only because they were valuable enough to not break them on spot.

Again, it's symbolic. If you're talking to Catalyst and start thinking that his ideas are good... you're embracing reaper ideas. But you need something to see the process... and the way to resist indoctrination, as a player, is a choice where you keep fighting for your objectives. Not for the reapers.

[MegumiAzusa]

Lord Goose wrote...

The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower.

Does any victim of the Reapers have to make symbolic choice of any kind?
Benezia started to belive in Saren and TIM firmly believed in his ideals, but did they really had a choice?

I think that they were indoctrinated all along. Illusion of free will were given to them only because they were valuable enough to not break them on spot.

The choices are not symbolic as she got less choices with less EMS. You could say they were symbolic if you could only do Control with low EMS, but your will to either destroy or control depending on choices is quite strong.
If her willpower is what is tested they could just show her what they want.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower.

Does any victim of the Reapers have to make symbolic choice of any kind?
Benezia started to belive in Saren and TIM firmly believed in his ideals, but did they really had a choice?

I think that they were indoctrinated all along. Illusion of free will were given to them only because they were valuable enough to not break them on spot.

they were already indoctrinated!!! they had already chosen to believe the reapers deception before we met them! after that (in me1) they didnt have any more free will. 

[Big G13]

Lord Goose wrote...

"Illusions of free will" sounds pretty subtile to me. Sure you want to go with that? You might end up disproving your own point

My English skill is poor, and I sometimes can't express my line of thoughts correctly.

Indoctrinated are slaves to the Reapers. They didn't choose to became their slaves because Reapers tricked them. They may have illussion of free will if they're valuable, but they can't resist indoctrination their masters in any way rather than suicide. If they don't want to be indoctrinated, they can only stay away from their tech.

While IT goes on assumption that Reapers to need some sort of permission from Shepard to indoctrinate him.

Understood, and I wasn't trying to be rude. I Was just making a point.
I think what IT assumes is that Shepard is able to resist the force of Reaper Indoctrination and that is why the Reapers are going to such extreme measures to try and indoctrinate him.

[Lord Goose]

We dont know. We werent controlling them. We ARE controlling Shepard.

You mean, that the player is the Reaper?

Well, I actually got the same idea from reading Ascension, because battle scenes with him under control of the Reapers is quite accurate portrayal of gameplay...

[UrgedDuke]

Lord Goose wrote...

The choices are just symbolic, a way to measure your willpower.

Does any victim of the Reapers have to make symbolic choice of any kind?
Benezia started to belive in Saren and TIM firmly believed in his ideals, but did they really had a choice?

I think that they were indoctrinated all along. Illusion of free will were given to them only because they were valuable enough to not break them on spot.

Indoctrination can be a little different for everyone. For example TIM wants humans to dominate, so the reapers trick him into thinking that controling them will ensure human superiority. Saren wanted to save the galaxy from being killed by the Reapers, so they tricked him into joining them with the promise that they would be spared

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

We dont know. We werent controlling them. We ARE controlling Shepard.

You mean, that the player is the Reaper?

Well, I actually got the same idea from reading Ascension, because battle scenes with him under control of the Reapers is quite accurate portrayal of gameplay...

Thats not what I was saying, I'm saying the choices are a way to make the player feel like they're going through the same thing as Shepard was.

There was a quote from Casey Hudson saying something along those lines. Someone should link it for me.

[UrgedDuke]

If you don't believe that dreams are a part of indoctrination then replay Arrival and Reaper IFF missions, in both situations the workers complained of nightmares and false memories

[Lord Goose]

For example TIM wants humans to dominate, so the reapers trick him into thinking that controling them will ensure human superiority. Saren wanted to save the galaxy from being killed by the Reapers, so they tricked him into joining them with the promise that they would be spared

I'm saying, that Saren and TIM were indoctrinated already, but instead of breaking them on the spot, Reapers decided to give them illussion of free will so goes deception. The point is, that

a) They were already indoctrinated, otherwise they wouldn't came up with their ideas to begin with.
They were not given an option to resist indoctrination (well, other than suicide).

[byne]

I still wanna know why Shepard wasnt even sleeping during the second dream.

When it ends she's sitting at that coffee table thing in the middle of the room, holding a datapad.

So apparently she isnt just dreaming about the kid at night, she randomly zones out and thinks about him.

[UrgedDuke]

Lord Goose wrote...

For example TIM wants humans to dominate, so the reapers trick him into thinking that controling them will ensure human superiority. Saren wanted to save the galaxy from being killed by the Reapers, so they tricked him into joining them with the promise that they would be spared

I'm saying, that Saren and TIM were indoctrinated already, but instead of breaking them on the spot, Reapers decided to give them illussion of free will so goes deception. The point is, that

a) They were already indoctrinated, otherwise they wouldn't came up with their ideas to begin with.
They were not given an option to resist indoctrination (well, other than suicide).

they could of resisted the indoctrination by rejecting the Reapers' BullS**t in the first place

Modifié par UrgedDuke, 27 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[Lord Goose]

If you don't believe that dreams are a part of indoctrination then replay Arrival and Reaper IFF missions, in both situations the workers complained of nightmares and false memories

Nightmares and false memories are quite different from complex hallucinations.

[Mythanblood]

byne wrote...

There was a quote from Casey Hudson saying something along those lines. Someone should link it for me.

Can't find a link to the source but i found the quote:
"we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson

[Corik]

Mythanblood wrote...

byne wrote...

There was a quote from Casey Hudson saying something along those lines. Someone should link it for me.

Can't find a link to the source but i found the quote:
"we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson

If IT is true... then they made it...

[Lord Goose]

Thats not what I was saying, I'm saying the choices are a way to make the player feel like they're going through the same thing as Shepard was.

Well, actually, if you read Ascension just at the right angle... I mean, seriously.

Reapers can manipulate Graysons emotions and read his memory. We can manipilate Shepard's emotion and have a codex.
Reapers can make Grayson say things that they wish. We have dialogue wheel for Shepard.
Because of Reaper's influence Grayson is basically killing machine. We can make our Shepard kicking sh*t out of Prime with his bare hands.]

Think about it.

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

I still wanna know why Shepard wasnt even sleeping during the second dream.

When it ends she's sitting at that coffee table thing in the middle of the room, holding a datapad.

So apparently she isnt just dreaming about the kid at night, she randomly zones out and thinks about him.

As said Sheps full blown indoctrination is quite established. Also note Shep is already indoctrinated in ME2 as when presented with Object Rho she doesn't do a thing about a non shielded Reaper artifact that gives visions. Shep even comes closer to it after a request by Dr Kenson who just said it gave her a vision of how nice the Reapers are.

[Ytook]

Lord Goose wrote...

They are trying to trick him into accepting their ideology and by doing so he sucumbs to indoctrination.

Reapers idelogy can be summed up to this: "harvest all advanced beings". I don't see how Shepard agrees with them in any ending.

Control is succumbing to what you know to be impossible, you give in by believing in something impossible like TIM, while in synthesis you agree that a fusion of synthetic and organic is the 'final stage' of evolution, which is how the star kid describes synthesis and exactly how Sovereign, Harbinger and Saren describe the reapers, your agreeing that they are the pinnacle of existence.

This video does a good job of showing it: