55528 réponses à ce sujet

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

those arrogant self-entitled
space-squids to live is NOT submitting to
them?

Personally, my Shepard choose Control ONLY because destroy ending reminded him about Han'Gerrel. Admiral was willing to sacrifice him and his squad in order to weaken the geth, and sacrificing geth and EDI would be the same thing. He may have done it if there were no other option, though.

Destroy reminds you of Han'Gerrel, but Control doesnt remind you of Xen?

Wanting to Control of the geth was literally Xen's entire reason for voting in favor of the war.

And it's interesting that you get to pick either destroy geth, save geth or make peace with both of them.

[byne]

Arian Dynas wrote...

byne wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

ok, heres what I think happened. how it started.

-shuttle crashes, shepard gets knocked out
- shepard envisions the run toward beam
-the beginning of the reapers manupulation begins with harbys laser
-the dream loses more reality, it becomes more of a reaper construct.
-the rest develops according to classical IT.

Starting at the shuttle crash makes more sense than starting after getting hit by Harby to me.

Gets rid of Shep somehow surviving what should be a lethal laser blast, as well as Anderson's horrible tactics of 'Lets rush straight at the beam in a single file line, screaming at the top of our lungs!'

That tactic doesnt seem like something Anderson would do.

Harbinger's beam is an obvious transition for several reasons, and as I have pointed out, Anderson's tactic is more along the lines of "He can't possibly stop all of us, we just need someone to get there and we don't have much time. Our only option? Charge!"

"Why cant he kill all of us?" - Minor Junior Private Negative First class Dexter Grif

I believe the last time you brought up that reasoning I used this exact Grif quote and you then told me to stop quoting Red vs Blue.

Ah, good times.

[Memnon]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of how this works if it is indeed a dream. Let's say that you chose Control or Synthesis - how will your game start with the DLC as compared with if you chose to kill the Reapers and woke up breathing at the end (as I did). If you chose Control/Synthesis and get a big "Mission Failed" screen once the DLC starts, you'll have even more people infuriated at the end. 

[MaximizedAction]

Corik wrote...

Munsterlander wrote...

Everyones is having a go at trying to explain IT so I thaught I might have a go.
It's quite late so I don't know how this will turn out.

Since the developers are not able to indoctrinate us players, they had to come up with another way of indoctrinating. This other way is the choice system we see at the end of the game. The reason no other character apears to have this choice as shepard did was because they didn't have a person controling them who was in fact out of the experiance. So to do this every thing after being beemed by Harby is trying to convince the player that the other two options are better than destroy (I wont mention examples because we all know them). So after all these hints (many subtle) the player should be feeling that control or synth are the best corse of action... UNLESS they have had the will power (that I lacked) to see past all the b*** ***t and think nothing more than "I came here to destroy the reapers, and that's what I'm gunna do!" So then, in the developers eyes you have enough will power to not be indoctrinated... Am I making any sence here?

Indeed you are. In my first playthrough I said that and destroyed them. For some reason, I really thought the child was lying. So I just destroyed everything, as planned.

Indeedily! I also chose destroy for some reason.

And I think everyone should've played the ending like I did: early in the morning with little brain processes going on at this hour, to come close to what Shep must prob. feel like.
Imo, only then will your (Shep's) choice represent you. And then BW will have accomplished their goal.

[Lord Goose]

Destroy reminds you of Han'Gerrel, but
Control doesnt remind you of Xen?

I would like to be Koris in that case, but there is no such option. Althogh, Synthesis...

And, personally, Xen idea is amoral because she is willing to deny the geth free will, and they don't deserve it. Reapers in turn are either force of nature beyond good and evil, or genocidal maniacs, so they deserve limitations of freedom

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

byne wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

ok, heres what I think happened. how it started.

-shuttle crashes, shepard gets knocked out
- shepard envisions the run toward beam
-the beginning of the reapers manupulation begins with harbys laser
-the dream loses more reality, it becomes more of a reaper construct.
-the rest develops according to classical IT.

Starting at the shuttle crash makes more sense than starting after getting hit by Harby to me.

Gets rid of Shep somehow surviving what should be a lethal laser blast, as well as Anderson's horrible tactics of 'Lets rush straight at the beam in a single file line, screaming at the top of our lungs!'

That tactic doesnt seem like something Anderson would do.

Harbinger's beam is an obvious transition for several reasons, and as I have pointed out, Anderson's tactic is more along the lines of "He can't possibly stop all of us, we just need someone to get there and we don't have much time. Our only option? Charge!"

"Why cant he kill all of us?" - Minor Junior Private Negative First class Dexter Grif

I believe the last time you brought up that reasoning I used this exact Grif quote and you then told me to stop quoting Red vs Blue.

Ah, good times.

Goodness I love that show.

[byne]

Stornskar wrote...

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of how this works if it is indeed a dream. Let's say that you chose Control or Synthesis - how will your game start with the DLC as compared with if you chose to kill the Reapers and woke up breathing at the end (as I did). If you chose Control/Synthesis and get a big "Mission Failed" screen once the DLC starts, you'll have even more people infuriated at the end. 

Depends on how they wanna go about doing it.

If they wanna avoid pissing off Control/Synthesis players, they could just have Shep wake up with a weakened resolve, and give you a large penalty to your EMS, requiring you to have even more to get the best ending.

If they dont care about Control/Synthesis players, you wake up fully indoctrinated, kill your friends, and the Reapers win.

We were promised a Reaper Victory end before the game came out, after all.

[llbountyhunter]

Arian Dynas wrote...

byne wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

ok, heres what I think happened. how it started.

-shuttle crashes, shepard gets knocked out
- shepard envisions the run toward beam
-the beginning of the reapers manupulation begins with harbys laser
-the dream loses more reality, it becomes more of a reaper construct.
-the rest develops according to classical IT.

Starting at the shuttle crash makes more sense than starting after getting hit by Harby to me.

Gets rid of Shep somehow surviving what should be a lethal laser blast, as well as Anderson's horrible tactics of 'Lets rush straight at the beam in a single file line, screaming at the top of our lungs!'

That tactic doesnt seem like something Anderson would do.

Harbinger's beam is an obvious transition for several reasons, and as I have pointed out, Anderson's tactic is more along the lines of "He can't possibly stop all of us, we just need someone to get there and we don't have much time. Our only option? Charge!"

yeah thats charge was pretty stupid. we already know he CAN hit all of us.

btw do you the prper way to get pat a reaper? use some trucks and a airstrike to create a diversion and then you can get a small team past it. 

http://www.youtube.c...SBifhTc#t=1182s


also bioware made a point to show us that we have makos and airvehicles at our disposal.

anderson and shep sudenly sudenly forgot this tactic?

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 27 mai 2012 - 11:01 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Lord Goose wrote...

"Illusions of free will" sounds pretty subtile to me. Sure you want to go with that? You might end up disproving your own point

My English skill is poor, and I sometimes can't express my line of thoughts correctly.

Indoctrinated are slaves to the Reapers. They didn't choose to became their slaves because Reapers tricked them. They may have illussion of free will if they're valuable, but they can't resist indoctrination their masters in any way rather than suicide. If they don't want to be indoctrinated, they can only stay away from their tech.

While IT goes on assumption that Reapers to need some sort of permission from Shepard to indoctrinate him.

The whole premise about indoctrination is NOT giving permission, but being swayed by suggestion, hence the indoc'd individual doesn't know it is happening until its too late.

Saren found this out, a bit too late for us to save him, and why he had to die(regardless of how it happened)

Same thing for TIM, by the time he realized his mistake, it was too late and he had to die(regardless of how)

History repeating itself countless times, because the effect of indoctrination is so subtle, that no matter who it happens to, is powerless to stop it.(except for the extreme measures I've pointed to)

[byne]

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...


"Why cant he kill all of us?" - Minor Junior Private Negative First class Dexter Grif

I believe the last time you brought up that reasoning I used this exact Grif quote and you then told me to stop quoting Red vs Blue.

Ah, good times.

Goodness I love that show.

Season 10 starts tomorrow. I cant freakin wait.

[Munsterlander]

Lord Goose wrote...

Since the developers are not able to
indoctrinate us players, they had to come
up with another way of indoctrinating.

So, their message is ''you have to be able to Han'Gerrel if you wanna win''? Gosh. In that case I would hate them with passion.

No, you need to be resiliant and remember what you came there to do. I truly believe no one went into the citadel thinking "Hmm, I might control the reapers... Or maybe conbine every organism in the galaxy with machine tech wether they want to or not..." (unless they knew the ending prior to playing them of course)

[Corik]

Munsterlander wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Since the developers are not able to
indoctrinate us players, they had to come
up with another way of indoctrinating.

So, their message is ''you have to be able to Han'Gerrel if you wanna win''? Gosh. In that case I would hate them with passion.

No, you need to be resiliant and remember what you came there to do. I truly believe no one went into the citadel thinking "Hmm, I might control the reapers... Or maybe conbine every organism in the galaxy with machine tech wether they want to or not..." (unless they knew the ending prior to playing them of course)

True. Well said.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

Since the developers are not able to
indoctrinate us players, they had to come
up with another way of indoctrinating.

So, their message is ''you have to be able to Han'Gerrel if you wanna win''? Gosh. In that case I would hate them with passion.

Well you picking control is basically admitting you are exactly like Admiral Xen and have no problems enslaving a sapient race to do your bidding.

Thats not any better.

[Lord Goose]

Imo, only then will your (Shep's) choice represent you.

So, I must choose to be like Han'Gerrel, or I'll screw up everything? Seriously?

NOT giving permission, but being
swayed by suggestion

I actually believe, that Reapers already indoctrinated TIM and Saren, and they were deceived only to prevent them from understanding that they're indoctrinated.

Its sort of chiken and egg debate. My point that indoctrination was first, and deception was only meant to kept them useful, yours that deception came first.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Lord Goose wrote...

For example TIM wants humans to dominate, so the reapers trick him into thinking that controling them will ensure human superiority. Saren wanted to save the galaxy from being killed by the Reapers, so they tricked him into joining them with the promise that they would be spared

I'm saying, that Saren and TIM were indoctrinated already, but instead of breaking them on the spot, Reapers decided to give them illussion of free will so goes deception. The point is, that

a) They were already indoctrinated, otherwise they wouldn't came up with their ideas to begin with.
They were not given an option to resist indoctrination (well, other than suicide).

A: During the indoc process, the ideas of TIM and Saren were incorporated into the illusion that they were in control of their respective minds, hence the longer the process, the more that the illusion is functioning properly.

B: Why would anyone resist something they DON'T know is happening?? You have to realize the process is insidious, it isn't something you can point a "tricorder" at and say, "I'm not allowing this to take my mind over!"

[Lord Goose]

Thats not any better.

As I said, Reapers are either genocidal maniacs, and in that case they deserve to be punished (as criminals in jail have their freedom limited), or force of nature and in that case morality is not applicable to them.

resiliant and
remember what you came there to do.

I came to stop the Reapers, but why should I choose to destroy the geth along with them if I have other option? If I don't believe Catalyst, why should I choose destroy? If I do, why I should kill the geth too?

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Corik wrote...

Mythanblood wrote...

byne wrote...

There was a quote from Casey Hudson saying something along those lines. Someone should link it for me.

Can't find a link to the source but i found the quote:
"we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson

If IT is true... then they made it...

Personally speaking, IT or not, the process of Indoc, did hit the majority of players, especially the ones who chose blue or green.

And they don't like it, one bit, mostly because they didn't realize it, until it was too late.

[Lord Goose]

During the indoc process, the ideas of
TIM and Saren were incorporated into the
illusion that they were in control of their
respective minds, hence the longer the
process, the more that the illusion is
functioning properly.

I think that they developed their ideas only because Reapers needed them to have illusion of free will. As soon as these delusions were broken they killed themselves.
The Reapers still could turn them into husks if they wanted to, but they were useful.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

Imo, only then will your (Shep's) choice represent you.

So, I must choose to be like Han'Gerrel, or I'll screw up everything? Seriously?

You're the one who brought Han'Gerrel into this.

I personally hate Han'Gerrel, but chose destroy.

The reason picking destroy is different from somehow becoming Han'Gerrel is that Han'Gerrel risked the entire Migrant Fleet in a senseless war that did not need to be started.

He began the war, the geth didnt.

He kept attacking the geth dreadnought instead of retreating, risking millions of quarian lives.

He almost caused the extinction of the quarian people because he was too proud to try and make peace with an enemy that never once attacked him first.

We on the other hand, are destroying the Reapers, because there is really no other way to be sure the cycles won't continue, or start again some day.

The Reapers still exist in control and synthesis. If you want to gamble humanity's continued existence on your trust of the Catalyst, who has been shown to be less than truthful (ie, Shep surviving destroy, when it said she wouldnt), then go ahead and do so due to your belief that doing otherwise somehow makes you Han'Gerrel.

The Reapers attacked us first, and have been wiping the galaxy clean of all life every 50,000 years for over a billion years.

Comparing Shepard to Han'Gerrel or the Reapers to the Geth is a false equivalency, and you know it.

Modifié par byne, 27 mai 2012 - 11:20 .

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

Thats not any better.

As I said, Reapers are either genocidal maniacs, and in that case they deserve to be punished (as criminals in jail have their freedom limited), or force of nature and in that case morality is not applicable to them.

So, would your punishment of a murderer involve brainwashing him and turning him into your personal slave for the rest of his life?

Because thats what you're doing to the Reapers in control.

[D.Sharrah]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

For me it was a 0 degree turn, if you are observant in ME2 TIM is completely the same but in ME3 he is more open about it because he don't need Shep anymore as he got what he wanted (the remains of the collector base).

Yeah, I never understood the people who trusted TIM enough to save the Collector Base and let him study it.

Even had I agreed with the ideas that the tech recovered from the base could help us against the Reapers (which I never did), the fact remained that if I saved the base I'd be giving it to TIM, and that never even crossed my mind as being a good idea.

I mean, I might have been more open to saving the base if I could have told TIM to ****** off and given the base to the Alliance, but giving it to TIM is just crazy.

Yupp, and I was actually more set off as to why TIMs room changed so much, in ME2 the view was a projection, in ME3 it's a glass wall...

I dont think it actually is a glass wall.

EDI says the prothean VI will be kept in the heart of the facility.

A room with one wall that is entirely glass is hardly the heart of the facility.

But why was it made to look like glass then? They even loaded splinters and everything for broken glass in that room.
The Artbook says:
"These are early concepts imagining the Cerberus headquaters. The top image represents a version in which the Illusive Man is not viewing a hologram but instead has a window that looks out at a dying star. The image on the facing page envisions what the room would look like following a violent confrontation."
And this look is exactly what you have after fighting Kai Leng.

Well, to clarify, I wasnt saying it wasnt actually a glass wall, and was indeed concrete or something silly like that, I was simply saying it probly isnt a glass wall with the vacuum of space on the other side. It could just be a glass wall with the projection on it, to make it seem more window-like.

He could also have multiple rooms like that, and the one we see in ME2 was indeed a hologram and this one isnt.

I dont really know either way.

Just seems odd TIM's command center would have a wall entirely made of glass.

Everybody knows that in the man cave you have to have the biggest TV that you can get away with...it just so happens that TIM can afford to get away with alot - and what are TV screens made of...glass.

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...


"Why cant he kill all of us?" - Minor Junior Private Negative First class Dexter Grif

I believe the last time you brought up that reasoning I used this exact Grif quote and you then told me to stop quoting Red vs Blue.

Ah, good times.

Goodness I love that show.

Season 10 starts tomorrow. I cant freakin wait.

I know. I'm curious to know how the Meta is going fit into all of this, being disembodied now.

And to keep this forum on topic: Shepard wasn't on earth

[Lord Goose]

I'm not talking about his behaviour in general. Only about that specific situation.

He choose to destroy geth ship with Shepard and Tali on board just to destroy the geth, even though the ship was already harmless. In red ending Shepard chooses to wipe out the geth along with EDI just to make sure that Reapers are dead.

[Lord Goose]

So, would your punishment of a murderer
involve brainwashing him and turning
him into your personal slave for the rest
of his life?

Only if the other option would be killing him along with a few people who helped me to stop him. Or making spirityul union with him.

[byne]

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...


"Why cant he kill all of us?" - Minor Junior Private Negative First class Dexter Grif

I believe the last time you brought up that reasoning I used this exact Grif quote and you then told me to stop quoting Red vs Blue.

Ah, good times.

Goodness I love that show.

Season 10 starts tomorrow. I cant freakin wait.

I know. I'm curious to know how the Meta is going fit into all of this, being disembodied now.

And to keep this forum on topic: Shepard wasn't on earth

Well, I figure all the stuff with the Meta AI will be during the Project Freelancer flashback parts. The Meta's AIs were all destroyed when they set off the EMP at Freelancer HQ.

Also, the AI calling itself the Meta in the teaser isnt actually the Meta we know and love, its Maine's original AI, Sigma

To keep it on topic: Uh huh!

Modifié par byne, 27 mai 2012 - 11:29 .