55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Ytook]

Lord Goose wrote...

I'm not talking about his behaviour in general. Only about that specific situation.

He choose to destroy geth ship with Shepard and Tali on board just to destroy the geth, even though the ship was already harmless. In red ending Shepard chooses to wipe out the geth along with EDI just to make sure that Reapers are dead.

But under IT that doesn't happen, the catalyst tells you this simply to make destroying the reapers less appealing, it's emotional manipulation, which even if you take the ending literally is definately happening as the catalyst takes the form of a child who represents your failure.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

So, would your punishment of a murderer involve brainwashing him and turning him into your personal slave for the rest of his life?

Only if the other option would be killing him along with a few people who helped me to stop him. Or making spirityul union with him.

But in this case, killing him would stop not only him, but any future murderers from ever murdering again.

I'd say stopping murder forever would be worth the sacrifice of the people who helped you catch the murderer, and I bet they'd agree too.

[Lord Goose]

IT that doesn't happen, the
catalyst tells you this simply to make
destroying the reapers less appealing,

And that if my Shepard was fully-blown Renegade, who never believed that geth are anything more than machines and sold Legion to the Cerberus?
That probably only worked out in different option, since he would be full: ''screw them, I'm not gonna choose to sacrifice myself''.

any future murderers
from ever murdering again.

If he is my slave with no free will. Why would he kill anybody else?
Also, Han'Gerrel believes that Shepard should have understood him and expected him to agree with his action.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

byne wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

ok, heres what I think happened. how it started.

-shuttle crashes, shepard gets knocked out
- shepard envisions the run toward beam
-the beginning of the reapers manupulation begins with harbys laser
-the dream loses more reality, it becomes more of a reaper construct.
-the rest develops according to classical IT.

Starting at the shuttle crash makes more sense than starting after getting hit by Harby to me.

Gets rid of Shep somehow surviving what should be a lethal laser blast, as well as Anderson's horrible tactics of 'Lets rush straight at the beam in a single file line, screaming at the top of our lungs!'

That tactic doesnt seem like something Anderson would do.

I do prefer this approach to our scenario, as it fits better, what with the missing HUD, and "feeling" injured after the crash.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

any future murderers from ever murdering again.

If he is my slave with no free will. Why would he kill anybody else?
Also, Han'Gerrel believes that Shepard should have understood him and expected him to agree with his action.

No, I'm saying in this case, it would stop not only him from murdering again, but also everyone else from ever committing a murder.

By killing him you would effectively kill all other murderers as well, and put an end to murder itself.

In this analogy, the murderers represent the Reapers, and the act of murder represents the cycles.

[D.Sharrah]

Stornskar wrote...

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of how this works if it is indeed a dream. Let's say that you chose Control or Synthesis - how will your game start with the DLC as compared with if you chose to kill the Reapers and woke up breathing at the end (as I did). If you chose Control/Synthesis and get a big "Mission Failed" screen once the DLC starts, you'll have even more people infuriated at the end. 

Or you will get the opportunity to play as their super servant and help them win...the developers did say that the Reapers winning was a possibility of the game...

[Lord Goose]

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

[Lord Goose]

developers did say that the
Reapers winning was a possibility of the
game...

In original scenario, Shepard had a choice to allow Reapers harvest humanity and create super-reaper which could stop spreading of dark-matter which would destroy the universe. Remember the sun which Tali studied in ME2? And all lines abut humans being special race with unique potential?

But they changed the script.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

Because you have literally no guarantee Shepard wont eventually begin to agree with godchild's reasoning.

Shepard is effectively immortal now, and after millions of years of living in isolation as the new catalyst, she might start to think maybe godchild had it right.

She has absolute power now, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I dont trust Shepard with the kind of power control offers. I dont trust anyone with that kind of power.

[estebanus]

Lord Goose wrote...

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

Do you really think Shepard can control the reapers?`

Hell, David Archer, a man with a mind ten times brighter than commander Shepard went insane while trying to interact with the geth consensus.
And Shepard is supposed to be able to control eons old machines, who aren't even fully synthetic, and each one with an intelligence so far beyond our comprehension, that we'd probably go insane even normally interacting with one?

I suggest you answer that question yourself.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

developers did say that the
Reapers winning was a possibility of the
game...

In original scenario, Shepard had a choice to allow Reapers harvest humanity and create super-reaper which could stop spreading of dark-matter which would destroy the universe. Remember the sun which Tali studied in ME2? And all lines abut humans being special race with unique potential?

But they changed the script.

Even that isnt really a Reapers-win scenario though.

More of a 'We-allow-ourselves-to-be-harvested-so-that-everyone-else-wins' scenario

[Big Bad]

Lord Goose wrote...

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

Well, according to the catalyst the genocide of all organics is the inevitable outcome of allowing AI to exist.  Unless Shepard (whatever Shepard actually is after the control ending) is planning on setting up a galaxy-wide fascist regime that brutally represses everybody in order to prevent the construction of AI, somebody somewhere is going to create AI, therefore by the catalyst's own logic, the reaper cycle will need to continue.

[byne]

I find it interesting that everytime someone comes in in favor of the endings, they usually like control.

Its like even pro-enders realize how stupid synthesis is.

[estebanus]

byne wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

Because you have literally no guarantee Shepard wont eventually begin to agree with godchild's reasoning.

Shepard is effectively immortal now, and after millions of years of living in isolation as the new catalyst, she might start to think maybe godchild had it right.

She has absolute power now, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I dont trust Shepard with the kind of power control offers. I dont trust anyone with that kind of power.

I don't even see how Shepard can control the reapers in the first place. I mean, the catalyst says s/he'll die, and olse everything s/he has.

How is a dead Shepard going to control the reapers?

[UrgedDuke]

byne wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

Because you have literally no guarantee Shepard wont eventually begin to agree with godchild's reasoning.

Shepard is effectively immortal now, and after millions of years of living in isolation as the new catalyst, she might start to think maybe godchild had it right.

She has absolute power now, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I dont trust Shepard with the kind of power control offers. I dont trust anyone with that kind of power.

It also doesn't make sense that the spacebieber would let Shepard replace him or destroy him...  the choices obviously sound like a trap.

Modifié par UrgedDuke, 27 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[D.Sharrah]

All of this semantical talk about indoctrination has caused everyone to miss two great posts meant to make you laugh...first was comparing Harby's laser to cell phone contracts and then there was the post saying that TIM had the ultimate man cave - has all the appreciation for humor left this thread forever?

[D.Sharrah]

Lord Goose wrote...

developers did say that the
Reapers winning was a possibility of the
game...

In original scenario, Shepard had a choice to allow Reapers harvest humanity and create super-reaper which could stop spreading of dark-matter which would destroy the universe. Remember the sun which Tali studied in ME2? And all lines abut humans being special race with unique potential?

But they changed the script.

And yet even with the changed script, the developers said that there would be a possibility to have the Reapers win as a conclusion to the game - the point being what better way to have that happen than to have it ochestrated by an indoctrinated Shep.

[EpyonX3]

@megumi




This is the best picture I've come across thanks to @Mobius-Silent

[Lord Goose]

Because you have literally no guarantee
Shepard wont eventually begin to agree
with godchild's reasoning.

We also have absolutely no guarantee what Rachni Queen will not unleash hell of Rachni Wars on the Galaxy. Or tha geth will not decide to wipe out quarins after legion is gone. Sometimes, solution requires faith. Killing people on accounts of mere possibility of future murders is kind of illogical.

[D.Sharrah]

Big Bad wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

In this analogy, the murderers represent
the Reapers, and the act of murder
represents the cycles

Eh. How exactly, the cycles will continue with Reapers under Shepard's control?

Well, according to the catalyst the genocide of all organics is the inevitable outcome of allowing AI to exist.  Unless Shepard (whatever Shepard actually is after the control ending) is planning on setting up a galaxy-wide fascist regime that brutally represses everybody in order to prevent the construction of AI, somebody somewhere is going to create AI, therefore by the catalyst's own logic, the reaper cycle will need to continue.

Even better...turn Starbinger's logic on its head.  The only reason anyone develops AI is because we follow a technological path laid out for us by...duh-duh...the Reapers.  The Reapers are the "creators" - and the organics are the created rebelling.  Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

Killing people on accounts of mere possibility of future murders is kind of illogical.

That hasnt stopped the Reapers from doing it for billions of years though.

Putting any faith in the platitudes offered to you by godchild to tempt you into choosing control or synthesis is foolish.

Better to go for the sure thing than put faith in godless killing machines.

[estebanus]

Lord Goose wrote...

Because you have literally no guarantee
Shepard wont eventually begin to agree
with godchild's reasoning.

We also have absolutely no guarantee what Rachni Queen will not unleash hell of Rachni Wars on the Galaxy. Or tha geth will not decide to wipe out quarins after legion is gone. Sometimes, solution requires faith. Killing people on accounts of mere possibility of future murders is kind of illogical.

The rachni and the geth are a threat that can be dealt with. The reapers are not. They are almost literally invincible. Having faith that ancient machines won't kill you is like believing that you're actually just going to take a shower in Auschwitz.
Chances are, that you'll be pretty disappointed in both cases.

EDIT: Ninja'd, kinda:P

Modifié par estebanus, 27 mai 2012 - 11:54 .

[Lord Goose]

Do you really think Shepard can control
the reapers?`

If we go into details, Reapers did choose to attack Sanctuary, because Henry Lawson have found something. He was researching control over reapers, and they attacked him.
If I don't believe Catalyst, I should just stay and do nothing and die from blood loss.

therefore by the catalyst's own logic,
the reaper cycle will need to continue

He is wrong. There is always another way.

[D.Sharrah]

EpyonX3 wrote...

@megumi




This is the best picture I've come across thanks to @Mobius-Silent

I see the part that you been trying to point out...but not sure that this proves anything at all.  What we need is a proper side by side comparison so we can look at the various components in both views and see if there is anything incongrous.

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 27 mai 2012 - 11:57 .

[byne]

Lord Goose wrote...

Do you really think Shepard can control
the reapers?`

If we go into details, Reapers did choose to attack Sanctuary, because Henry Lawson have found something. He was researching control over reapers, and they attacked him.
If I don't believe Catalyst, I should just stay and do nothing and die from blood loss.

therefore by the catalyst's own logic,
the reaper cycle will need to continue

He is wrong. There is always another way.

>If I dont believe the Catalyst, I should just stay and do nothing
>He is wrong. There is always another way


Do you even listen to yourself?