55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Perhaps I used the wrong term. However, my point is that the first Keeper cannot be reached because there is a pile of bodies in between Shepard and it. To many, this made it appear as if collision detection was on like normal throughout the game when being near keepers for this one but off for the rest because you can go through them.

I meant that Bioware tweaked the collision detection on the keepers in this level so that they can be on top of the bodies without appearing to float in the air, since the space between you and a keeper under normal circumstances is pretty wide.

The only thing special about that keeper is that it looks at you when you land. That's about it.

That in and of itself is pretty significant. Keepers are closer to household appliances like a vaccuum cleaner with an autopilot than they are to sapient beings. They have no conscious mind.

Anyway, I know what you meant. Perhaps I worded my response poorly if you thought I didn't. From a technical standpoint, I don't see any merit to the notion that all the keepers in that zone have to be without clipping because one of them is standing on some corpses. Since I (obviously) don't have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of ME3's particular engine I'd be foolish to say it absolutely cannot be true. But I find it extremely unlikely. It would also require the developers to be Lazy™ since it'd mean they'd have to have consciously decided to half ass that particular part of the game, which they knew would be HEAVILY scrutinized, rather than just not put a keeper on top of dead bodies.

[paxxton]

Lord Goose wrote...

As far as I remember, huskification is final stage of indoctrination. It just much more faster, because nanobots travelling with adrenaline in blood. It was said on Horizon.

Check out this amazing thread for everything nanides:
http://social.biowar.../index/12089259
You can also find much info on nanides throughout this and the last thread.

Destructorlio wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hi! Someone finally acknowledges my theory here? 

 

Ha! Paxxton: you've earned this.

High five.

High five!

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 03:26 .

[Destructorlio]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Even better...turn Starbinger's logic on its head. The only reason anyone develops AI is because we follow a technological path laid out for us by...duh-duh...the Reapers. The Reapers are the "creators" - and the organics are the created rebelling. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.

This sounds like one of the original series Star Trek conundrums where Kirk argued with a computer- could the Reapers just be caught in a galactic error loop?

FFZero wrote...

The "alien" voices are definitely there. There are two main sounds in that bit, the sound of people yelling in the background and a weird deeper "alien" sound, and that deeper sound is one of the weird noises you can hear in the dream sequences. 

Interesting. While I don't dismiss this as evidence for IT, as it's widely speculated that Shepard hallucinates the kid after his initial apparent death in the building, could it not be that the weird noises are just coming from the Reaper itself, since it's just outside the window and all?

[D.Sharrah]

I still think that this is the best way to debunk ReaperBieber the Starbinger...

"...turn Starbinger's logic on its head. The only reason anyone develops AI is because we follow a technological path laid out for us by...duh-duh...the Reapers. The Reapers are the "creators" - and the organics are the created rebelling. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy."

Edit: @ Destructorlio...yes.  Which is one reason I find it easy to dismiss SC's logic and just do what I have always tried to do - destroy the reapers.

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 28 mai 2012 - 03:32 .

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting these thoughts...
*snip*

Starbinger's logic makes perfect sense. The method is just unpleasant and wrongly targeted. The Reapers under Shepard's control can target rogue AIs instead of organics.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 03:33 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Lord Goose wrote...

Indoctrination is
no needed part in the huskification
process.

As far as I remember, huskification is final stage of indoctrination. It just much more faster, because nanobots travelling with adrenaline in blood. It was said on Horizon.

"Huskification" I believe is a form of "rapid indoctrination" either by phsyical touch with specific Reaper tech/artifacts or "Dragons Teeth" In this process, the victim is still alive and circumvented with Reaper tech ("nanides" if you will) that flows through the open wound if Dragon Teeth are used or seemingly through energy from Reaper Tech (see The Illusive Man's comic for scenes of that, although those seem like "special husk" types).

"Subtle" indoctrination is what Shepard could be going through, taking place via infrasonic signals. The represenation of a struggle in Shepard's mind could be unique to his.her experience, it's unclear if any previous famous Indoctrinatee's (Saren, The Illusive Man) went through a similar Hallucination where they were tricked into certain choices, but neither of them had Shepard's willpower.

"No! I'm in control, nobody is telling me what to do!" so yes indoctrinated people do think they're in control

Indoctrinated people think that they're in control.
Normal (well, some of them) people think that they're in control.

We can't say that somebody is indoctrinated if he thinks that he is in control.

I think you misunderstand what he means, or I do. What he means is The Illusive Man, and Saren for that matter, both thought what they were doing was the best for their species or even for all organics. It's obvious they are both indoctrinated by the end of each games so it can be said that the Reapers tricked them into thinking what they were doing was "right" or "for the greater good" all the while everything they did was for the Reapers benefit.

I maybe be mistaken.
Can you quote me ANY explanation why reapers harvest all advanced sentient races, besides Calayst speech?

"We are your salvation through destruction" - Sovereign
"We are your genetic destiny" - Harbinger
The Destroyer on Rannoch says something similar, if anything we can derive that the Reapers are here to "save organics from themselves" while also bolstering their own numbers and strength. But I believe they've disregarded the "save organics" part and skipped straight to increasing their strength through harvest.

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting these thoughts...
*snip*

Starbinger's logic makes perfect sense. The method is just unpleasant and wrongly targeted. The Reapers under Shepard's control can target rogue AIs instead of organics.

Did you read the whole line about self fulfilling prophecy?  Starbinger's logic is an error loop...just review this statement from the game, "The created will always rebel against the creators."  Now, Starbinger would like you to believe that what is being talked about is organics creating synthetics, and then sythetic rebelling against their organic creators.  But what does it take to create synthetics (or AI if you wish)?  Knowledge and technology...technology that in the ME universe is all based on Reaper tech.  And going back to ME 1, Sovereign tell us this much, "...we allow you to develop along  our  paths...".  So the synthetics that exist in universe only exist because we followed the path of technology given to us by the Reapers.  So if we are examining our existence, the Reapers are very much the creators of our technologucal lives.  A creator that assumes organic life will create synthetics (because that's the path they laid out for us) that will ultimately destroy us (because the sythetics we create are based on the knowledge and technology of them - and what does thier logic dictate, that they destroy organics).

I could go on, but at some point you have to see that this just starts to loop back on itself with no end in sight.

[paxxton]

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

To create a self fulfilling prophecy that is the backbone of ReaperBieber the Starbinger's circular logic/error loop.

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

To create a self fulfilling prophecy that is the backbone of ReaperBieber the Starbinger's circular logic/error loop.

Well, but consider this scenario.

The mass relays' range can be assumed to be limited to the Milky Way. Except the Citadel that is deactivated.
The Reaper on Rannoch says to Shepard he can finish his war and they'll still be waiting. It can be deduced that they left some of their kind in dark space in case they fall.
If you choose destroy you don't end the cycle. You thrust organics into stone age.
The destroy signal doesn't reach dark space.
The remaining Reapers come back and harvest the leftovers of the advanced civilizations. Or wait another 50,000 years to come back.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 03:59 .

[Ytook]

Population density maybe? Once you reach a critical mass where there is enough beings for them to reproduce but not enough for them to be threatened (in their estimation).

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

To create a self fulfilling prophecy that is the backbone of ReaperBieber the Starbinger's circular logic/error loop.

Well, but consider this scenario.

The mass relays' range can be assumed to be limited to the Milky Way. Except the Citadel that is deactivated.
The Reaper on Rannoch says to Shepard he can finish his war and they'll still be waiting. It can be deduced that they left some of their kind in dark space in case they fall.
If you choose destroy you don't end the cycle. You thrust organics into stone age.
The destroy signal doesn't reach dark space.
The remaining Reapers come back and harvest the left-overs of the advanced civilizations. Or wait another 50,000 years to come back.

How does this change anything about the circular logic/error loop presented by Starbinger?

[paxxton]

Ytook wrote...

Population density maybe? Once you reach a critical mass where there is enough beings for them to reproduce but not enough for them to be threatened (in their estimation).

But what makes advanced civs so valuable in their reproductive cycle?

[DJBare]

Lord Goose wrote...
Actually, Saren believed that if he will prove himself useful, he would be spared. Submission is preferable to extinction and such. Benezia just believed in Saren, and Illusive Man believed that he is not indoctrinated and could control the Reapers. Paul Grayson also believed that he is able to break Reapers control over him, while doing exactly what they wanted him to do.

Benezia did not believe in Saren, her plan was to disuade him from his course of action, but as she explains, the more time spent on board sovereign the more you come to worship Saren, she was being indoctrinated.

[spotlessvoid]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting these thoughts...
*snip*

Starbinger's logic makes perfect sense. The method is just unpleasant and wrongly targeted. The Reapers under Shepard's control can target rogue AIs instead of organics.

Did you read the whole line about self fulfilling prophecy?  Starbinger's logic is an error loop...just review this statement from the game, "The created will always rebel against the creators."  Now, Starbinger would like you to believe that what is being talked about is organics creating synthetics, and then sythetic rebelling against their organic creators.  But what does it take to create synthetics (or AI if you wish)?  Knowledge and technology...technology that in the ME universe is all based on Reaper tech.  And going back to ME 1, Sovereign tell us this much, "...we allow you to develop along  our  paths...".  So the synthetics that exist in universe only exist because we followed the path of technology given to us by the Reapers.  So if we are examining our existence, the Reapers are very much the creators of our technologucal lives.  A creator that assumes organic life will create synthetics (because that's the path they laid out for us) that will ultimately destroy us (because the sythetics we create are based on the knowledge and technology of them - and what does thier logic dictate, that they destroy organics).

I could go on, but at some point you have to see that this just starts to loop back on itself with no end in sight.

It's faulty logic for significantly more reasons than that.

Starchild is all around full of ****

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

To create a self fulfilling prophecy that is the backbone of ReaperBieber the Starbinger's circular logic/error loop.

Well, but consider this scenario.

The mass relays' range can be assumed to be limited to the Milky Way. Except the Citadel that is deactivated.
The Reaper on Rannoch says to Shepard he can finish his war and they'll still be waiting. It can be deduced that they left some of their kind in dark space in case they fall.
If you choose destroy you don't end the cycle. You thrust organics into stone age.
The destroy signal doesn't reach dark space.
The remaining Reapers come back and harvest the left-overs of the advanced civilizations. Or wait another 50,000 years to come back.

How does this change anything about the circular logic/error loop presented by Starbinger?

This changes nothing.  I haven't come up with a good answer yet.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 04:06 .

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

To create a self fulfilling prophecy that is the backbone of ReaperBieber the Starbinger's circular logic/error loop.

Well, but consider this scenario.

The mass relays' range can be assumed to be limited to the Milky Way. Except the Citadel that is deactivated.
The Reaper on Rannoch says to Shepard he can finish his war and they'll still be waiting. It can be deduced that they left some of their kind in dark space in case they fall.
If you choose destroy you don't end the cycle. You thrust organics into stone age.
The destroy signal doesn't reach dark space.
The remaining Reapers come back and harvest the leftovers of the advanced civilizations. Or wait another 50,000 years to come back.

This statement maeks me feel like I am at a magic show...and the performer isn't very good...he just got caught performing a trick the wrong way and...quick look over there a rabbit in a top hat dancing the charleston!

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

What puzzles me is the fact that the Reapers acknowledge that they let organics develop along the lines they desire by having given them the Mass Relays. So it may be that in order for a species to be useful for harvesting and reproduction it has to have a higher level of technological development. Why?

To create a self fulfilling prophecy that is the backbone of ReaperBieber the Starbinger's circular logic/error loop.

Well, but consider this scenario.

The mass relays' range can be assumed to be limited to the Milky Way. Except the Citadel that is deactivated.
The Reaper on Rannoch says to Shepard he can finish his war and they'll still be waiting. It can be deduced that they left some of their kind in dark space in case they fall.
If you choose destroy you don't end the cycle. You thrust organics into stone age.
The destroy signal doesn't reach dark space.
The remaining Reapers come back and harvest the left-overs of the advanced civilizations. Or wait another 50,000 years to come back.

How does this change anything about the circular logic/error loop presented by Starbinger?

This changes nothing.  I haven't come up with a good answer yet.

Ok.  Well, at least your honest.

[Ytook]

paxxton wrote...

Ytook wrote...

Population density maybe? Once you reach a critical mass where there is enough beings for them to reproduce but not enough for them to be threatened (in their estimation).

But what makes advanced civs so valuable in their reproductive cycle?

They will have much larger populations as they are able to expand out into space to avoid overcrowding and have medical advancements, civilisations not advanced enough will be smaller and would need to be left to grow.

Edit: Also isn't the Rannoch reaper referring to the Geth Quarian war and that they will be waiting for Shepard after that?

Modifié par Ytook, 28 mai 2012 - 04:06 .

[spotlessvoid]

I think the Reapers wipe out civilization for two reasons.
Organics are needed for reproduction and possibly sustenance.
To stop organics from developing enough to pose a threat to the Reapers

In fact, it's the British empirical model.
Uplift the populace enough to be useful, but keep them from catching up past a certain point. Then reap the profits

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 28 mai 2012 - 04:12 .

[Lord Goose]

He's wrong about the cycle...but not wrong about anything else.

Yeah. That's exactly what's Shepard says during the ending. Watch it yourself.

http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=105s

Shepard disagrees with Catalyst, but still listens to his options about "new solution".

"...turn Starbinger's logic on its head. The only reason anyone develops AI is because we follow a technological path laid out for us by...duh-duh...the Reapers. The Reapers are the "creators" - and the organics are the created rebelling. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy."

Keep in mind, that in the original script, Reapers allowed organic races to prosper only to harvest them later and create new Reapers to find solution to the spread of dark matter. Organic vs AI problem wasn't addressed.

The represenation of a struggle in Shepard's mind could be unique to his.her experience, it's unclear if any previous famous Indoctrinatee's (Saren, The Illusive Man) went through a similar Hallucination where they were tricked into certain choices, but neither of them had Shepard's willpower.

As far as I remember, where is no real difference between huskification and indoctrination in general. Huskification is just rapid, because nanides are travelling fast. But any indoctrinated will eventually turn into husk.

what they were doing was "right" or "for the greater good" all the while everything they did was for the Reapers benefit.

We can obviously judge them by their deeds. Saren is trying to open Citadel for Reapers to come, and TIM is backstabbing humanity during the crysis. While we can't see Shepard working for Reapers in any ending.

The Destroyer on Rannoch says something similar, if anything we can derive that the Reapers are here to "save organics from themselves" while also bolstering their own numbers and strength. But I believe they've disregarded the "save organics" part and skipped straight to increasing their strength through harvest.

Well, and how exactly choosing to control Reapers is accepting their philosophy in that case?

[D.Sharrah]

spotlessvoid wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting these thoughts...
*snip*

Starbinger's logic makes perfect sense. The method is just unpleasant and wrongly targeted. The Reapers under Shepard's control can target rogue AIs instead of organics.

Did you read the whole line about self fulfilling prophecy?  Starbinger's logic is an error loop...just review this statement from the game, "The created will always rebel against the creators."  Now, Starbinger would like you to believe that what is being talked about is organics creating synthetics, and then sythetic rebelling against their organic creators.  But what does it take to create synthetics (or AI if you wish)?  Knowledge and technology...technology that in the ME universe is all based on Reaper tech.  And going back to ME 1, Sovereign tell us this much, "...we allow you to develop along  our  paths...".  So the synthetics that exist in universe only exist because we followed the path of technology given to us by the Reapers.  So if we are examining our existence, the Reapers are very much the creators of our technologucal lives.  A creator that assumes organic life will create synthetics (because that's the path they laid out for us) that will ultimately destroy us (because the sythetics we create are based on the knowledge and technology of them - and what does thier logic dictate, that they destroy organics).

I could go on, but at some point you have to see that this just starts to loop back on itself with no end in sight.

It's faulty logic for significantly more reasons than that.

Starchild is all around full of ****

Wasn't trying to imply that it was the only reason that it was faulty...but the easiest for me to see and therefore understand, so that I could say, "Uh....yeah, ok then....I'm just gonna go over there and shoot that pipe, ok.  Alrighty then, bye, bye."

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Well, but consider this scenario.

The mass relays' range can be assumed to be limited to the Milky Way. Except the Citadel that is deactivated.
The Reaper on Rannoch says to Shepard he can finish his war and they'll still be waiting. It can be deduced that they left some of their kind in dark space in case they fall.
If you choose destroy you don't end the cycle. You thrust organics into stone age.
The destroy signal doesn't reach dark space.
The remaining Reapers come back and harvest the left-overs of the advanced civilizations. Or wait another 50,000 years to come back.

How does this change anything about the circular logic/error loop presented by Starbinger?

This changes nothing.  I haven't come up with a good answer yet.

Ok.  Well, at least your honest.

 Just showing that Destroy might not be the best solution.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 04:08 .

[spotlessvoid]

@.d sharrah

Yes I agreed and added that point for my buddy paxxtons benefit

[MACharlie1]

I don't get where anyone states that civilization is thrust into the stone age.

Didn't Weekes come out and say that civilization isn't in the stone age and that the Reapers are to be salvaged for FTL ships?