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[Darksaberexile]

I finished my second playthrough recently (same character and decisions as the first, but with the correct EMS since I didn't know on my first playthrough that it got locked in at the start of the Cerberus base mission).

I still didn't care for the endings, but I did find something else to speculate about (i think, haven't read this whole thread, and it's late so i'm not going to skim it now lol).

Assuming the events up to the showdown of Anderson and Shepard vs TIM are accurate and do occur, Shepard has his body forcefully controlled by someone that is indoctrinated (TIM). As far as I know, this is a unique event, as the Reapers usually control individuals directly.

My question is: What effect would an indoctrinated individual using Reaper implants to control a non-indoctrinated, non controlled individual be on the person being controlled? Would Shepard be negatively impacted by it, regardless of the fact that he/she is able to break free? If yes, what impacts would be reasonable to expect?

[Corik]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

I remember Gamble saying that! And at the same time, someone was saying that they started making it because of fan reaction. I was so confused about it that I called BS on Gamble's tweet. That was before I learned of the all mighty, all knowing IT.
ALL GLORY TO THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY...

Heh, IT saved me from a very long depression. Gave me hope. Still, as I said, I don't care about it. I just need 2 things. First of all Garrus and Kaidan coming back to save Shepard. In my games Kaidan and Shepard are like brothers, and after seeing Shepard saving Kaidan 2 times, taking him on his back, I seriously want to see Kaidan saving him this time, taking Shepard on his back and bringing him to the Normandy. Probably this won't happen... but at least... I hope they don't leave him alone.

Second thing I need is Admiral Hacket leading the fleet to victory. A big space battle is always nice to see at the end of a game like this. In fact... Why have I been collecting ships through the galaxy if that won't make a difference? Something's wrong with that.

If these 2 things don't happen... I will reject reality and substitute my own.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

Lets not forget that Hudson went to the HTL site and placed two polls about if they like the IT or not, which they both won in favor for IT by a landslide.

There are also some twits from Mike Gamble which suggest that EC may have been on production since the game launched. That mixed with the fact that there are lots of evidences ingame about a hallucination is a pretty nice argument.

Still, everything depends on Bioware. Even with the huge support to the IT...

One thing that gives me a little hope and faith is another twit confirming EC will have gameplay... If we have gameplay that means there's something after London's breathing scene...

I don't know... I really need to believe something like this. I really don't care about IT (I think is the best, though). In fact, I only need to know that Shepard's friends were with him in his last moments if he die... Or that they saved him if he lives. And that humanity AS WE KNOW IT has been saved. Otherwise... I don't know why I've been fighting so hard during the 3 games. I was supposed to save the galaxy and humanity, not to see it destroyed and Shepard forgotten in London while his friends cowardly escape...

Why wasn't I informed about it, huh?

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 09:04 .

[Corik]

Darksaberexile wrote...

I finished my second playthrough recently (same character and decisions as the first, but with the correct EMS since I didn't know on my first playthrough that it got locked in at the start of the Cerberus base mission).

I still didn't care for the endings, but I did find something else to speculate about (i think, haven't read this whole thread, and it's late so i'm not going to skim it now lol).

Assuming the events up to the showdown of Anderson and Shepard vs TIM are accurate and do occur, Shepard has his body forcefully controlled by someone that is indoctrinated (TIM). As far as I know, this is a unique event, as the Reapers usually control individuals directly.

My question is: What effect would an indoctrinated individual using Reaper implants to control a non-indoctrinated, non controlled individual be on the person being controlled? Would Shepard be negatively impacted by it, regardless of the fact that he/she is able to break free? If yes, what impacts would be reasonable to expect?

It's simple. Indoctrinated individuals are unable to control others like that. It's the first time we see it. Even Sovereing himself inside Saren didn't do it. Even Harbinger himself inside the collector drones didn't do it. That's something new, never seen, and never reported.

It can only be 2 things... A huge plot change at the end of the game or another evidence pointing towards a hallucination.

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...
Why wasn't I informed about it, huh?

I can't find it right now, but I swear I saw it. It was a response on twitter to someone who was complaining about EC not having gameplay. I think it was Mike Gamble but I'm not sure... I didn't give it importance at that time. The response was "When have we said that?" Or something like that.

I'm sorry, I wish I could link it directly.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Why wasn't I informed about it, huh?

I can't find it right now, but I swear I saw it. It was a response on twitter to someone who was complaining about EC not having gameplay. I think it was Mike Gamble but I'm not sure... I didn't give it importance at that time. The response was "When have we said that?" Or something like that.

I'm sorry, I wish I could link it directly.

It's ok. I though they confirmed it explicitly. I'm sure we'll get to know more from E3 next week.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 09:09 .

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Why wasn't I informed about it, huh?

I can't find it right now, but I swear I saw it. It was a response on twitter to someone who was complaining about EC not having gameplay. I think it was Mike Gamble but I'm not sure... I didn't give it importance at that time. The response was "When have we said that?" Or something like that.

I'm sorry, I wish I could link it directly.

I though they confirmed it explicitly. I'm sure we'll get to know more from E3 next week.

Well, it makes sense. It seems they've been working on it for some time now. A few cutscenes and cinematics wouldn't take long to make.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Why wasn't I informed about it, huh?

I can't find it right now, but I swear I saw it. It was a response on twitter to someone who was complaining about EC not having gameplay. I think it was Mike Gamble but I'm not sure... I didn't give it importance at that time. The response was "When have we said that?" Or something like that.

I'm sorry, I wish I could link it directly.

I though they confirmed it explicitly. I'm sure we'll get to know more from E3 next week.

Well, it makes sense. It seems they've been working on it for some time now. A few cutscenes and cinematics wouldn't take long to make.

They already have most of the assets (like 3D models) except some motion capture, VO and previously unseen environments (if any). All that's left is animation and incorporation into the game (+ QA).

[Destructorlio]

https://twitter.com/...464201645428736

https://twitter.com/...492753411473408

?

There was definitely a tweet out there saying that the EC was 'so much more' than cinematics and that they never said otherwise.

[Destructorlio]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Why wasn't I informed about it, huh?

I can't find it right now, but I swear I saw it. It was a response on twitter to someone who was complaining about EC not having gameplay. I think it was Mike Gamble but I'm not sure... I didn't give it importance at that time. The response was "When have we said that?" Or something like that.

I'm sorry, I wish I could link it directly.

Yeah, I have seen this also. Doesn't seem to be from Gamble, though. 

[RavenEyry]

Destructorlio wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Up until the last scene, the game goes out of its way to demonstrate that attempting to control the Reapers is a Very Bad Idea.  Then in walks the Catalyst who tells you, "Oh, control is actually a good choice - it will work for you, honest!"  He doesn't present any evidence or logical arguments to contradict what we've already learned from the story, but you're going to ignore all of this and trust him anyway?

True story. Have none of these people ever encountered a Fade Demon?

Or saved Morinth? I ask this because she tells Shep they will survive when no one else could but was lying. The same goes for control.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Corik wrote...

Darksaberexile wrote...

I finished my second playthrough recently (same character and decisions as the first, but with the correct EMS since I didn't know on my first playthrough that it got locked in at the start of the Cerberus base mission).

I still didn't care for the endings, but I did find something else to speculate about (i think, haven't read this whole thread, and it's late so i'm not going to skim it now lol).

Assuming the events up to the showdown of Anderson and Shepard vs TIM are accurate and do occur, Shepard has his body forcefully controlled by someone that is indoctrinated (TIM). As far as I know, this is a unique event, as the Reapers usually control individuals directly.

My question is: What effect would an indoctrinated individual using Reaper implants to control a non-indoctrinated, non controlled individual be on the person being controlled? Would Shepard be negatively impacted by it, regardless of the fact that he/she is able to break free? If yes, what impacts would be reasonable to expect?

It's simple. Indoctrinated individuals are unable to control others like that. It's the first time we see it. Even Sovereing himself inside Saren didn't do it. Even Harbinger himself inside the collector drones didn't do it. That's something new, never seen, and never reported.

It can only be 2 things... A huge plot change at the end of the game or another evidence pointing towards a hallucination.

Hm, an interesting situation. There's a couple different ways to view this though.

1. At this point Shepard is not indoctrinated, any previous attempt has failed and what we see is the final attempt by the Reapers, potentially even using The Illusive Man as a hub or signal booster.

2. If everything after Harbinger's attack is a hallucination (brought about by indoctrination or any other reason), then there would be nothing to explain about this point as The Illusive Man here only exist in Shepard's mind.

[Corik]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hm, an interesting situation. There's a couple different ways to view this though.

1. At this point Shepard is not indoctrinated, any previous attempt has failed and what we see is the final attempt by the Reapers, potentially even using The Illusive Man as a hub or signal booster.

2. If everything after Harbinger's attack is a hallucination (brought about by indoctrination or any other reason), then there would be nothing to explain about this point as The Illusive Man here only exist in Shepard's mind.

Correct. The first one could be, Shepard being controlled by harbinger himself, and not by TIM, while all of it is real. However, we must notice how much TIM changed since Cronos Station, from saying he doesn't need Shepard to believe him to say the oposite "Shepard, I need you to believe in me".

I think the real problem is the breathing scene. If that's real, that's london, not the citadel, and would be confirmation of everything being on Shepard's mind.

I really believe the second option has more sense. There is too much symbolism after Harbinger's beam. And is the only time things simply don't have sense at all. Everything else in the game makes sense.

[Rosewind]

I have a burning stupid question, have Bioware ever said that the boxed ending is actually the ending?

[blooregard]

Rosewind wrote...

I have a burning stupid question, have Bioware ever said that the boxed ending is actually the ending?

Depends on how you look at it.

On one hand they say they didn't know there was such a demand for "it"

On the other artistic integrity ect.

I don't think they actually explicitly said "thats as good as it gets sir" but most of the PR double talk can be taken in 5 different ways.

Modifié par blooregard, 28 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Corik wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hm, an interesting situation. There's a couple different ways to view this though.

1. At this point Shepard is not indoctrinated, any previous attempt has failed and what we see is the final attempt by the Reapers, potentially even using The Illusive Man as a hub or signal booster.

2. If everything after Harbinger's attack is a hallucination (brought about by indoctrination or any other reason), then there would be nothing to explain about this point as The Illusive Man here only exist in Shepard's mind.

Correct. The first one could be, Shepard being controlled by harbinger himself, and not by TIM, while all of it is real. However, we must notice how much TIM changed since Cronos Station, from saying he doesn't need Shepard to believe him to say the oposite "Shepard, I need you to believe in me".

I think the real problem is the breathing scene. If that's real, that's london, not the citadel, and would be confirmation of everything being on Shepard's mind.

I really believe the second option has more sense. There is too much symbolism after Harbinger's beam. And is the only time things simply don't have sense at all. Everything else in the game makes sense.

The Indoctrination Theory is still a bit  flexible as to when the hallucination starts. Still a theory after all

Perhaps it's a combination of the two: Everything after Harbinger's beam is a dream/hallucination representational of Shepard's mind and willpower struggling against indoctrination. The Illusive Man is on the Citadel even before you reach Earth, and he is used by the Reapers as a signal booster of sorts which would explain why the Reapers let him discover their signal to begin with. Why Harbinger wouldn't be able to do this with his level of control a few hundred yards from Shepard, and how The Illusive Man would be able to from orbit I don't know. Perhaps Harbinger needed someone with a human brain to indoctrinate Shepard, someone to assume direct control of and then send the indoctrination signal from there.

Addendum: This scenario would imply Shepard never left Earth, since The Illusive Man was acting from the Citadel. As for why the "dream" doesn't end with his death; Harbinger would have had the opening he needed for Shepard, it would only be a matter of convincing him/her to join the Reapers.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 28 mai 2012 - 10:18 .

[Selaine]

Rosewind wrote...

I have a burning stupid question, have Bioware ever said that the boxed ending is actually the ending?

maybe this answers your question

www.youtube.com/watch

don't know what to think about...

[MaximizedAction]

Destructorlio wrote...

StElmo wrote...

This isn't an in-game clue, BUT.

Mass Effect 3 doesn't have a making of documentary, do you think this is because they were planning the indoctrination plot device and wanted to keep that kind of thing under wraps?

Instead, they put out thje final hours, which is more of a controlled, smaller tid bit?

Thoughts?

I definitely think their extreme silence on all things is a clue towards IT. Did they make docos for 1&2? 

Final hours app definitely not telling the whole story, and itself contains a lot of clues that support IT.

Yes, the ME3 release lacks quite a lot of things the previous releases had: extensive documentaries (besides the pre-release bits), interviews with Casey, Soundtrack CDs, etc.

And the silence, without IT unexplainable, with IT makes perfect sense.

[blooregard]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Destructorlio wrote...

StElmo wrote...

This isn't an in-game clue, BUT.

Mass Effect 3 doesn't have a making of documentary, do you think this is because they were planning the indoctrination plot device and wanted to keep that kind of thing under wraps?

Instead, they put out thje final hours, which is more of a controlled, smaller tid bit?

Thoughts?

I definitely think their extreme silence on all things is a clue towards IT. Did they make docos for 1&2? 

Final hours app definitely not telling the whole story, and itself contains a lot of clues that support IT.

Yes, the ME3 release lacks quite a lot of things the previous releases had: extensive documentaries (besides the pre-release bits), interviews with Casey, Soundtrack CDs, etc.

And the silence, without IT unexplainable, with IT makes perfect sense.

Their avoidence of the subject in general is a major give away. The Chris Prestly poll definately looks like them testing the waters to see if IT would be accepted since the BSN is so devided (hard to tell which ones are the trolls and which ones are seriously against IT)

[Corik]

Selaine wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I have a burning stupid question, have Bioware ever said that the boxed ending is actually the ending?

maybe this answers your question

www.youtube.com/watch

don't know what to think about...

Well, I think no one ever said "this is the end". Even in that video they can't say "that's the end". Everything they have said is "we are not changing the end". Which in fact, they don't need to if the last moments of ME3 are a hallucination. Words are words... not proof. But seeing how everything is developing I'm starting to think Bioware intented this since the begining (probably because they ran out of time to end/polish the ending). It should be very easy to find some statement from Bioware opposed to Indoctrination/hallucination Theory if it was false, but there is not a single one...

I find every word carefully chosen to keep the secret and not lying.

In fact, if you think about it, when the rage started a lot of people from Bioware said things similar to "hold on, guys, hold on"

Modifié par Corik, 28 mai 2012 - 10:26 .

[Selaine]

Corik wrote...
Well, I think no one ever said "this is the end". Even in that video they can't say "that's the end". Everything they have said is "we are not changing the end". Which in fact, they don't need to if the last moments of ME3 are a hallucination. Words are words... not proof. But seeing how everything is developing I'm starting to think Bioware intented this since the begining (probably because they ran out of time to end/polish the ending). It should be very easy to find some statement from Bioware opposed to Indoctrination/hallucination Theory if it was false, but there is not a single one...

I find every word carefully chosen to keep the secret and not lying.

In fact, if you think about it, when the rage started a lot of people from Bioware said things similar to "hold on, guys, hold on"

thanks friend! that's exactly the little voice i hear sometimes in my mind 
hope renewed.

something big is coming...!

Definetly, maybe..

[Corik]

Selaine wrote...

thanks friend! that's exactly the little voice i hear sometimes in my mind 
hope renewed.

something big is coming...!

Definetly, maybe..

Maybe, yes. That's the key. Don't trust anything good will definetely happen.... there are huge evidences, signs and symbols. I think in any other situation i would say is 100% sure this is true... But I'm not going to trust it blindly... if it's wrong and Bioware slaps us in the face... that would be totally depressing... And I'm already depressed enough xD

[StElmo]

Destructorlio wrote...

https://twitter.com/...464201645428736

https://twitter.com/...492753411473408

?

There was definitely a tweet out there saying that the EC was 'so much more' than cinematics and that they never said otherwise.

That second quote is MP, because the people he referenced talk MP on their twitter profiles think they are MP devs.

[StElmo]

Corik wrote...

Selaine wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I have a burning stupid question, have Bioware ever said that the boxed ending is actually the ending?

maybe this answers your question

www.youtube.com/watch

don't know what to think about...

Well, I think no one ever said "this is the end". Even in that video they can't say "that's the end". Everything they have said is "we are not changing the end". Which in fact, they don't need to if the last moments of ME3 are a hallucination. Words are words... not proof. But seeing how everything is developing I'm starting to think Bioware intented this since the begining (probably because they ran out of time to end/polish the ending). It should be very easy to find some statement from Bioware opposed to Indoctrination/hallucination Theory if it was false, but there is not a single one...

I find every word carefully chosen to keep the secret and not lying.

In fact, if you think about it, when the rage started a lot of people from Bioware said things similar to "hold on, guys, hold on"

He says CAN tell you the ending is on the disc.

[Corik]

StElmo wrote...

He says CAN tell you the ending is on the disc.

you sure? I'm not native english speaker so I'm not going to discuss that. It sounds more a "can't" to me, tho... But I don't know.