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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#8151
Corik

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dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

If they say the kid is not real, they basically confirm the theory. I guess in this case no news are good news (at least for us). If they didn't want the speculation to grew as it did... they would have said something.


Not necessarily: the kid could still be merely a projection of Shepard's war-torn subconscious, conveniently finding his way into white space among his/her visual range.

It would, however, confirm that things aren't as they seem on the surface, and that you should be encouraged to pull a DiCaprio and dig deeper. 


But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.

#8152
BleedingUranium

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Rosewind wrote...

Corik wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Not IT related at all, but since we're talking about voice actors, does anyone else find it odd the VAs for Garrus, Ashley, & Kaiden don't voice anyone in MP?


If they did we couldn't speculate about them recording more lines for the main characters!!!

Nah, now seriously... I don't find it odd. In fact, I find odd that mr Meer is the one resposible for voicing the vorcha xD


Vorcha are awesome, I still want to play a varren in the next cycle :P


Biotic Varren!

Also, does anyone know who voices the Turian in MP? I think it's Tarquin Victus. Everyone else is the main character for each faction.

#8153
Stigweird85

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dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

We keep getting evidences, signs... but no confirmations, of course. I'm very new to this (ended ME3 thursday night) but I find very interesting the confirmation of Kaidan, Hacket and EDI to record more lines. I think, at least, we will get some "love" for Shepard by his friends and some fleet action with hacket. That's a lot more than we have right now...


I'm of the mind that they need to offer a point-blank answer to something---anything---about the conclusion and its intepretive/surreal nature at this point, just as a gesture of good faith.  

Personally, if I were handling the PR for the extended cut, I'd strongly urge for the creators to come out and palpably confirm whether the child in the vent was actually there or not---or, at least, what their personal feelings on that matter are.  If confirmed that he wasn't real (or that most of the writers see him as such), then the speculation would shift gears upwards pretty dramatically.  If not, and it's not the direction they're going in, then it would inject a tranquilizer in the abstract analysis until the EC hits.


Truthfully I don't expect an answer at all. I suspect that Bioware will craft the EC in just a way that both endings are true. ---> Lot's of speculation for everyone afterall.

The EC could simply an extended cut into whatever endings the player wants to see.

For example, the EC reads the legendsave data - if you pick destroy then you beat indoctrination. You can then see a cutscene(Hell even the current ending cutscene will work) or the Repears being destroyed. After which you can get reuninted with your LI or whoever who tells you what actually happened as you fought indoctrination. Whereas with control/synthesis you can extra scenes about how the universe recovered after the destruction of the relays and what implications that your choice had.

I believe this is Biowares best chance at appeasing the so called "fans" who have thrown the toys out of the pram. It doesn't change the endings but also allows closure for everyone. While also leaving the debate open about which is the "true" ending.

Speculation for Everyone

#8154
Corik

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bigstig wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

We keep getting evidences, signs... but no confirmations, of course. I'm very new to this (ended ME3 thursday night) but I find very interesting the confirmation of Kaidan, Hacket and EDI to record more lines. I think, at least, we will get some "love" for Shepard by his friends and some fleet action with hacket. That's a lot more than we have right now...


I'm of the mind that they need to offer a point-blank answer to something---anything---about the conclusion and its intepretive/surreal nature at this point, just as a gesture of good faith.  

Personally, if I were handling the PR for the extended cut, I'd strongly urge for the creators to come out and palpably confirm whether the child in the vent was actually there or not---or, at least, what their personal feelings on that matter are.  If confirmed that he wasn't real (or that most of the writers see him as such), then the speculation would shift gears upwards pretty dramatically.  If not, and it's not the direction they're going in, then it would inject a tranquilizer in the abstract analysis until the EC hits.


Truthfully I don't expect an answer at all. I suspect that Bioware will craft the EC in just a way that both endings are true. ---> Lot's of speculation for everyone afterall.

The EC could simply an extended cut into whatever endings the player wants to see.

For example, the EC reads the legendsave data - if you pick destroy then you beat indoctrination. You can then see a cutscene(Hell even the current ending cutscene will work) or the Repears being destroyed. After which you can get reuninted with your LI or whoever who tells you what actually happened as you fought indoctrination. Whereas with control/synthesis you can extra scenes about how the universe recovered after the destruction of the relays and what implications that your choice had.

I believe this is Biowares best chance at appeasing the so called "fans" who have thrown the toys out of the pram. It doesn't change the endings but also allows closure for everyone. While also leaving the debate open about which is the "true" ending.

Speculation for Everyone


I said this many times already. I don't really care about any of the theories. I kinda think IT is very well designed and it almost feel like planned since the first moment, but if it's not, I don't care.

I only want to see that my Shepard, dead or alive, is not left behind alone. And that my actions finally saved humanity and the other races. That's what we fought for since ME1 and the friendship bonds between Shepard and the rest of his friends are the background of all the trilogy.

We could say... I just want a "happy" ending (I prefer Shepard alive, yeah). My perfect ending would be Kaidan getting "revenge" for the 2 times when Shepard took him on his back to save him, and being the one saving him this time. With the rest of his friends taking care of him in the med bay. Call me sentimental. xD

#8155
Rosewind

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Corik wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

If they say the kid is not real, they basically confirm the theory. I guess in this case no news are good news (at least for us). If they didn't want the speculation to grew as it did... they would have said something.


Not necessarily: the kid could still be merely a projection of Shepard's war-torn subconscious, conveniently finding his way into white space among his/her visual range.

It would, however, confirm that things aren't as they seem on the surface, and that you should be encouraged to pull a DiCaprio and dig deeper. 


But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.


Want me to whip out the screenies of his creepy staring of the balcony he does?

Edit: Man I sound Like yoda I do.

Modifié par Rosewind, 28 mai 2012 - 04:08 .


#8156
dreamgazer

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Corik wrote...

But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.


We? Yeah.  They, meaning the folks outside of the theory's boundaries, or those who dismiss a surreal interpretation? Negative.  Plenty of folks believe he was real and simply the product of bad writing, and they question the intelligence of anyone who believes otherwise.  This would reframe the situation.

bigstig wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

We keep getting evidences, signs... but no confirmations, of course. I'm very new to this (ended ME3 thursday night) but I find very interesting the confirmation of Kaidan, Hacket and EDI to record more lines. I think, at least, we will get some "love" for Shepard by his friends and some fleet action with hacket. That's a lot more than we have right now...


I'm of the mind that they need to offer a point-blank answer to something---anything---about the conclusion and its intepretive/surreal nature at this point, just as a gesture of good faith.  

Personally, if I were handling the PR for the extended cut, I'd strongly urge for the creators to come out and palpably confirm whether the child in the vent was actually there or not---or, at least, what their personal feelings on that matter are.  If confirmed that he wasn't real (or that most of the writers see him as such), then the speculation would shift gears upwards pretty dramatically.  If not, and it's not the direction they're going in, then it would inject a tranquilizer in the abstract analysis until the EC hits.


Truthfully I don't expect an answer at all. I suspect that Bioware will craft the EC in just a way that both endings are true. ---> Lot's of speculation for everyone afterall.

The EC could simply an extended cut into whatever endings the player wants to see.

For example, the EC reads the legendsave data - if you pick destroy then you beat indoctrination. You can then see a cutscene(Hell even the current ending cutscene will work) or the Repears being destroyed. After which you can get reuninted with your LI or whoever who tells you what actually happened as you fought indoctrination. Whereas with control/synthesis you can extra scenes about how the universe recovered after the destruction of the relays and what implications that your choice had. 

I believe this is Biowares best chance at appeasing the so called "fans" who have thrown the toys out of the pram. It doesn't change the endings but also allows closure for everyone. While also leaving the debate open about which is the "true" ending. 

Speculation for Everyone


Exactly, and I actually think it's a clever way of handling the game's current position in modern culture.  Everyone's speculating.  I don't expect an answer either, but it would do wonders for the positive motion towards speculating.  It would provide something resembling an interpretive anchor---at the very least, a gesture that reaffirms that it's okay to venture into interpretive waters instead of dismissing it all as garbled writing.

I'm mostly talking about the people who have been discouraged from looking at the game with an analytical eye, the ones who feel they couldn't execute something like that.   All it would do for people who interpret indoctrination is create something resembling a fist-pump, a small affirmation.  The people who have been led to believe that everything's just bad writing, however, could be strongly encouraged to explore what they're looking at with a sleuthing mentality in mind. 

The child's real ot surreal nature would, in my personal opinion, be the perfect anchor.  A minor anchor, but an effective one. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 28 mai 2012 - 04:10 .


#8157
dreamgazer

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Rosewind wrote...

Corik wrote...

But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.


Want me to whip out the screenies of his creepy staring of the balcony he does?

Edit: Man I sound Like yoda I do.


Oh, I don't believe he's there. You wouldn't be doing anything for me, except make me smile since someone else interprets it in the same way.  But if you show the same images to the "bad writing" camp, they'll instantly dismiss it as, uh, bad writing.

BioWare saying that the child isn't real would be positive affirmation of premeditated surreal thought from the horse's mouth.  That could/would create a paradigm shift for the bad writing crowd, albeit a small one. 

#8158
Ytook

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Personally I really really hope that they give a definitive conclusion with IT definitely being the case, I want a conclusion to mass effect. They certainly don't have to spell everything out and they should leave a few dangling threads to pull at, but more vagaries and I'm done, I want the story to conclude, not just stop.

#8159
Big Bad

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bigstig wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

We keep getting evidences, signs... but no confirmations, of course. I'm very new to this (ended ME3 thursday night) but I find very interesting the confirmation of Kaidan, Hacket and EDI to record more lines. I think, at least, we will get some "love" for Shepard by his friends and some fleet action with hacket. That's a lot more than we have right now...


I'm of the mind that they need to offer a point-blank answer to something---anything---about the conclusion and its intepretive/surreal nature at this point, just as a gesture of good faith.  

Personally, if I were handling the PR for the extended cut, I'd strongly urge for the creators to come out and palpably confirm whether the child in the vent was actually there or not---or, at least, what their personal feelings on that matter are.  If confirmed that he wasn't real (or that most of the writers see him as such), then the speculation would shift gears upwards pretty dramatically.  If not, and it's not the direction they're going in, then it would inject a tranquilizer in the abstract analysis until the EC hits.


Truthfully I don't expect an answer at all. I suspect that Bioware will craft the EC in just a way that both endings are true. ---> Lot's of speculation for everyone afterall.

The EC could simply an extended cut into whatever endings the player wants to see.

For example, the EC reads the legendsave data - if you pick destroy then you beat indoctrination. You can then see a cutscene(Hell even the current ending cutscene will work) or the Repears being destroyed. After which you can get reuninted with your LI or whoever who tells you what actually happened as you fought indoctrination. Whereas with control/synthesis you can extra scenes about how the universe recovered after the destruction of the relays and what implications that your choice had.

I believe this is Biowares best chance at appeasing the so called "fans" who have thrown the toys out of the pram. It doesn't change the endings but also allows closure for everyone. While also leaving the debate open about which is the "true" ending.

Speculation for Everyone


I've had similar thoughts.  I wouldn't mind something like this, actually.  However, I really want to fight Harbinger!

#8160
Rosewind

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dreamgazer wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Corik wrote...

But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.


Want me to whip out the screenies of his creepy staring of the balcony he does?

Edit: Man I sound Like yoda I do.


Oh, I don't believe he's there. You wouldn't be doing anything for me, except make me smile since someone else interprets it in the same way.  But if you show the same images to the "bad writing" camp, they'll instantly dismiss it as, uh, bad writing.

BioWare saying that the child isn't real would be positive affirmation of premeditated surreal thought from the horse's mouth.  That could/would create a paradigm shift for the bad writing crowd, albeit a small one. 


Have you seen a close up of him they even put him in a pose, if it was bad writing why did they take the time to put him in a pose why not just have him standing in a default position.

Here is the link wont clutter up the thread with pictures.

Star Brat One

Star Brat Two

#8161
MaximizedAction

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New patch 1.03 to be released tomorrow, still no Aequitas fix.
Hmmm...

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 28 mai 2012 - 04:36 .


#8162
dreamgazer

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Rosewind wrote...

Have you seen a close up of him they even put him in a pose, if it was bad writing why did they take the time to put him in a pose why not just have him standing in a default position.

Here is the link wont clutter up the thread with pictures.

Star Brat One

Star Brat Two


Thank you for those, as I hadn't seen them yet.  Very creepy. 

There are logical ways of looking at why he's got a blank stare (you only see the profile of his body in a distanced shot, one you have to look really close to see in the first place, so they could have simply not "cared" about expression on his turned face), but it doesn't change how eerie the wooden gaze is. 

When it comes to this interpretation, I'm far more convinced by things that we can see---things BioWare allowed into our field of vision.  Not so much what we can't clearly see with the naked eye. 

#8163
D.Sharrah

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Ok...so who's ready to share the notes of what has been discussed this morning? Have I missed anything good? Or new?

#8164
Rosewind

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MaximizedAction wrote...

New patch 1.03 to be released tomorrow, still no Aequitas fix.
Hmmm...


Maybe it's done on purpose :P

#8165
RavenEyry

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MaximizedAction wrote...

New patch 1.03 to be released tomorrow, still no Aequitas fix.
Hmmm...

Still no fix on any of the 'bugs and oversights' we have discovered.

#8166
D.Sharrah

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Rosewind wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Corik wrote...

But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.


Want me to whip out the screenies of his creepy staring of the balcony he does?

Edit: Man I sound Like yoda I do.


Oh, I don't believe he's there. You wouldn't be doing anything for me, except make me smile since someone else interprets it in the same way.  But if you show the same images to the "bad writing" camp, they'll instantly dismiss it as, uh, bad writing.

BioWare saying that the child isn't real would be positive affirmation of premeditated surreal thought from the horse's mouth.  That could/would create a paradigm shift for the bad writing crowd, albeit a small one. 


Have you seen a close up of him they even put him in a pose, if it was bad writing why did they take the time to put him in a pose why not just have him standing in a default position.

Here is the link wont clutter up the thread with pictures.

Star Brat One

Star Brat Two






Interesting...I assume that these were taken with a fly cam?  Has anyone fly cammed the opening scene with the child playing on the rooftop?  This might give us the chance to see where he is in context to where he is in pics above...I would try to do this but, I play on 360...

#8167
Rosewind

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dreamgazer wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Have you seen a close up of him they even put him in a pose, if it was bad writing why did they take the time to put him in a pose why not just have him standing in a default position.

Here is the link wont clutter up the thread with pictures.

Star Brat One

Star Brat Two


Thank you for those, as I hadn't seen them yet.  Very creepy. 

There are logical ways of looking at why he's got a blank stare (you only see the profile of his body in a distanced shot, one you have to look really close to see in the first place, so they could have simply not "cared" about expression on his turned face), but it doesn't change how eerie the wooden gaze is. 

When it comes to this interpretation, I'm far more convinced by things that we can see---things BioWare allowed into our field of vision.  Not so much what we can't clearly see with the naked eye. 


Ignoring the facial expression for a moment, it's the fact that they took the time to put him in a pose look how he is standing why would they do that if was just a place holder for when the animation was to start of him running into the building.

#8168
D.Sharrah

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Rosewind wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

New patch 1.03 to be released tomorrow, still no Aequitas fix.
Hmmm...


Maybe it's done on purpose :P


Definetly makes you think this...

#8169
Rosewind

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D.Sharrah wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Corik wrote...

But I think we can be 99% sure that the child is not real. I mean... I've been watching the intro and there's no way that boy could have moved from the first roof to the second balcony. That balcony doesn't have any kind of access.


Want me to whip out the screenies of his creepy staring of the balcony he does?

Edit: Man I sound Like yoda I do.


Oh, I don't believe he's there. You wouldn't be doing anything for me, except make me smile since someone else interprets it in the same way.  But if you show the same images to the "bad writing" camp, they'll instantly dismiss it as, uh, bad writing.

BioWare saying that the child isn't real would be positive affirmation of premeditated surreal thought from the horse's mouth.  That could/would create a paradigm shift for the bad writing crowd, albeit a small one. 


Have you seen a close up of him they even put him in a pose, if it was bad writing why did they take the time to put him in a pose why not just have him standing in a default position.

Here is the link wont clutter up the thread with pictures.

Star Brat One

Star Brat Two






Interesting...I assume that these were taken with a fly cam?  Has anyone fly cammed the opening scene with the child playing on the rooftop?  This might give us the chance to see where he is in context to where he is in pics above...I would try to do this but, I play on 360...


Yes it is flycam, and sorry still can't seem to get flycam to work properly during cinematics it always just freezes in a default position and I am unable to move it.

#8170
DirtyPhoenix

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Corik wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Not IT related at all, but since we're talking about voice actors, does anyone else find it odd the VAs for Garrus, Ashley, & Kaiden don't voice anyone in MP?


If they did we couldn't speculate about them recording more lines for the main characters!!!

Nah, now seriously... I don't find it odd. In fact, I find odd that mr Meer is the one resposible for voicing the vorcha xD


Vorcha are awesome, I still want to play a varren in the next cycle :P


Biotic Varren!

Also, does anyone know who voices the Turian in MP? I think it's Tarquin Victus. Everyone else is the main character for each faction.


Does Hale also voice the human female characters?

#8171
Rosewind

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*Shiver* Samara's line "We will all be tested in fire soon enough" is so eerie......

#8172
HellishFiend

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D.Sharrah wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

@megumi

Posted Image


This is the best picture I've come across thanks to @Mobius-Silent


I see the part that you been trying to point out...but not sure that this proves anything at all.  What we need is a proper side by side comparison so we can look at the various components in both views and see if there is anything incongrous.


Jeez, look how tiny that thing is, and he thinks it's the "decision chamber"? We can conclude that piece has roughly the same diameter as the synthesis beam. He just debunked his own theory by posting that screen. 

#8173
paxxton

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So have we reached any conclusion on what Jesse Houston said?

Modifié par paxxton, 28 mai 2012 - 04:49 .


#8174
D.Sharrah

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Rosewind wrote...

snip...

Yes it is flycam, and sorry still can't seem to get flycam to work properly during cinematics it always just freezes in a default position and I am unable to move it.



That's too bad...it would certainly help to answer how/why he end up on that perticular rooftop during the "escape".

#8175
UrgedDuke

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what did he say

Modifié par UrgedDuke, 28 mai 2012 - 04:51 .